[MANGA] Bleach Chapter 418 Discussion

[EnchantingPrincess]

Originally Posted by TheRime

But while all captains have high power, they're hardly on the same level. There are definitely captains more powerful than others, and I think that power difference goes up exponentially with age/experience. I always thought Toshiro was vastly generalizing by saying "A captain," especially if he's using himself as the average example. Shunsui said that "maybe in a 100 (or was it 1000?) years, Toshiro MIGHT be able to surpass him." Which means that now, Shunsui is vastly MORE powerful than Toshiro, who's already pretty powerful.

I read and seen in anime/manga that Toshiro "will"(Said by Shunsui himself) surpass him in 100 years
But still Shunsui is still a very strong Captain I honestly think he may be at a higher level then most of the captains him and Unohana

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Hav0kkx

You also seem to be forgetting Halibel was holding her own against 2 Vizards (who we can assume after 100 years they're on a captain level) and Toshiro, so she was considerably powerful.

It's unfortunate, but even with that said, holding her own against a Captain and 2 VC lvl Vizards, simply just isn't good enough when she should've had the strength and speed to take them down just as easily as Aizen ended up doing to everyone later on. For instance, the way Aizen took down Lisa is exactly how quickly and easily Halibel should've had it the moment Lisa first went on the offensive. She shouldn't have been reduced to simply fending them all off.

Originally Posted by TheRime

yeah, but weren't Toshiro and co training to become stronger in preparation for the winter war? Considering he's a prodigy and has a great amount of potential that just needed experience, I'm not surprised that he's gotten stronger since Luppi and Shawlong, and therefore can stand up to Halibel.

Toshiro's a prodigy only in comparison to most shinigami's. However, he's no Ichigo. Ichigo is the only character in this series who seems to have the ability to grow exponentially stronger within only mere days or months at most.

Case in point here is that without a clearly explained and plausible power up (such as undergoing hollowfication or using "jinzen" to power up), there's no way Hitsugaya should've been able to improve so much as to go from being 6th Espada level at best to being able to hold his own against a released #3 given only roughly 2 months to train. Especially if you consider the fact that it's still taken him years to become as strong as he is now.

On another note, let's try to put what Slayerx stated into perspective a little bit.

Ichigo's base speed and strength (prior to his current power up) was already on an average Captain lvl--likely on par with Hitsugaya. He proved this the moment he quickly and easily took down several shikai wielding VC's unarmed.

He has a Bankai that specializes in high speed combat and makes him so fast, that not even one of the fastest among the Gotei 13 can keep up.

Now against a Bankai Vizard Ichigo, this speed increase (which should already be far beyond that of an average captain) only becomes significantly greater.

#4 at lvl 1 release alone was so fast, even Bankai Vizard Ichigo couldn't keep up. (This is the same Ichigo who should be several times faster than someone of Hitsugaya's caliber.)

So based on this, should Hitsugaya really have stood a chance against #3 if the power levels actually remained consistent and made sense?

Originally Posted by TheRime

I honestly don't have any problems with the Shunsui/Stark fight because 1) Shunsui DIDN'T have such an easy time of it

If he didn't have to resort to Bankai, and he was still in good enough condition to take on Aizen afterwards, he couldn't have had it that hard.

Originally Posted by TheRime

2)Shunsui said that "maybe in a 100 (or was it 1000?) years, Toshiro MIGHT be able to surpass him." Which means that now, Shunsui is vastly MORE powerful than Toshiro, who's already pretty powerful.

Considering how long it took Hitsugaya to become as strong as he is now (which has got to be about 35 years since he's entered the Gotei 13), I'd say 100 years will probably make him 2.5 - 3 times stronger based on his current rate of growth. So if Shunsui feels he's somewhere between 2-3 times stronger than Hitsugaya, Stark should've still been able to wipe the floor with him if his strength level was represented the way Slayerx and I are suggesting. Because Halibel alone should've already been around 4-5 times stronger and faster than Hitsugaya.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by TheRime

But while all captains have high power, they're hardly on the same level. There are definitely captains more powerful than others, and I think that power difference goes up exponentially with age/experience. I always thought Toshiro was vastly generalizing by saying "A captain," especially if he's using himself as the average example. Shunsui said that "maybe in a 100 (or was it 1000?) years, Toshiro MIGHT be able to surpass him." Which means that now, Shunsui is vastly MORE powerful than Toshiro, who's already pretty powerful.

Actually with how SLOW normal shinigami take to increase in strength, 100 years sounds about par for the course. I mean, that's how long it seems to take a VC to rise to the status of a captain... like i said it takes DECADES for regular shinigami to step up a level

But at the end of the day, the measuring stick is Ichigo who was just below Byakuya who has been often championed as one of the stronger captains (Toshiro has come off as one of the weaker ones). The relationship between Shunsui and Toshiro is irrelevant, as only ichigo and byakuya matters.... unless you want to also claim that Shunsui is also VASTLY more powerful than Byakuya... and then there's ukitake who is often played as being on par with Shunsui and he go one shotted by a sneak attack

Not to mention that Love and Rose were Captains 100 years ago and as such should be in the upper teir of fighters by now... and that's without considering their masks

And this also doesn't change the points I've been making about Toshiro being able to survive as long as he did against Halibel who should have CRUSHED him in a few seconds

Originally Posted by secretzfan

In my belief Kyoraku's zanpaktou just isn't fair as it can kill any hollow

And that's still besides the point...

[TheRime]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

unless you want to also claim that Shunsui is also VASTLY more powerful than Byakuya...

Why not? That doesn't seem too hard to believe. Shunsui was already a captain for over 200 years when Bya was still a kid.

And besides, the point I was making is that it isn't such a shock that Shunsui beat Stark so easily. And I mentioned the Shunsui vs. Toshiro power levels because: it was Toshiro who said "VL's are more powerful than a captain." If Toshiro was using HIMSELF to make that comparison, then it's possible he under-represented a captain's power in relation to a VL's power. (as you said, Toshiro is one of the weaker ones) AND, since Shunsui is more way more powerful than Toshiro, it's not THAT hard to believe he could have beaten Stark.

I agree with you about the whole Toshiro vs. Halibel thing, tho. But I'll just chalk it up to the kid being real lucky that his opponent had water-based attacks, which he use against her.

[JustRob]

It's a shame Komamura didn't fight the Espada, I mean he had to use bankai on a fraccion. I can only imagine the trouble an Espada would give him.

[TheRime]

Originally Posted by sayde

On another note, let's try to put what Slayerx stated into perspective a little bit.

Ichigo's base speed and strength (prior to his current power up) was already on an average Captain lvl--likely on par with Hitsugaya. He proved this the moment he quickly and easily took down several shikai wielding VC's unarmed.

He has a Bankai that specializes in high speed combat and makes him so fast, that not even one of the fastest among the Gotei 13 can keep up.

Now against a Bankai Vizard Ichigo, this speed increase (which should already be far beyond that of an average captain) only becomes significantly greater.

#4 at lvl 1 release alone was so fast, even Bankai Vizard Ichigo couldn't keep up. (This is the same Ichigo who should be several times faster than someone of Hitsugaya's caliber.)

So based on this, should Hitsugaya really have stood a chance against #3 if the power levels actually remained consistent and made sense?

I see your point. Honestly, though (and this is just my speculation) I kinda suspect that Ulquiorra hid how truly powerful he was from everyone. He said that not even Aizen has seen his second release form. It *might* be possible that Ulqui truly IS more powerful than Halibel and co, but only got the title of #4 because he just made himself out to be less powerful. With that in mind, Ulqui is actually above Hali in ability, and *maybe* Stark and Barry too. I guess you could force the "Toshiro beats Hali" to make sense if you think that Ulqui was being WAY underrepresented by his number.

Originally Posted by sayde

If he didn't have to resort to Bankai, and he was still in good enough condition to take on Aizen afterwards, he couldn't have had it that hard.

Well, I think Byakuya once said that the bankai is basically someone's LAST RESORT. (which kinda makes him a hypocrite, since he whips his out just about every battle, but still....) You can still have it pretty hard and not be at your last resort. I'd call getting blasted by a cero at close distance "having it pretty hard." And his bankai probably has some awful unspeakable destructive power, since Uki told him not to use it when so many ppl were around.

Originally Posted by sayde

Considering how long it took Hitsugaya to become as strong as he is now (which has got to be about 35 years since he's entered the Gotei 13), I'd say 100 years will probably make him 2.5 - 3 times stronger based on his current rate of growth. So if Shunsui feels he's somewhere between 2-3 times stronger than Hitsugaya, Stark should've still been able to wipe the floor with him if his strength level was represented the way Slayerx and I are suggesting. Because Halibel alone should've already been around 4-5 times stronger and faster than Hitsugaya.

Not necessarily. If Hitsugaya can outgrow Shunsui in 100 years, I think that's more indicative of how FAST Hitsu is accelerating, not how powerful he is now. Now, Shunsui might still be more than 3 times stronger.

And about the bankai'd Ichigo vs. #4 comparison, as relating to Shunsui vs. Stark: I still believe Shunsui should be perfectly capable of beating Stark. Beating someone isn't all about power or speed, though I'm sure Shunsui's got power and speed up the wazoo. It's also about technique, tactics, and experience. Shunsui's got MORE than 300 years as a CAPTAIN. Ichi may be a fast learner, but I don't think pre-FGT Ichi was up to Shunsui's fighting capabilities.

Of course, this may just be the Shunsui fangirl in me talking.... Forgive me for defending him, but I sure do love the guy.

[astrallionheart]

The only way any of this makes sense if Uliquiorra, Noitora, and Grimmjow were the embodiment of physical abilities and Stark, Barragan, and Tia were the embodiment of god-like kido abilities. That's the only way to explain the #1-3 espada's apparently complete lack of strength or speed compared to #4-6.

Tia: had to "gather up" before managing to blow-back Toshiro. Was being fought on equal physical ground by two vice captains without masks on.

Stark: apparently not capable of bursts of speed like #4-6, sword fighting seems to be in slow motion.

Barragan: basically did nothing. Ran away from Omaeda's stupid spiked ball when any captain worth their salt would be able to block it with their bare hands.

Another thing is, Espada #4-6 were very willing to take physical hits when they sensed their opponent was not physically strong, and were used to blocking attacks with their bare hands. Espada #1-3 seemed to be wary of even being hit by even low-level vice captains, when we know even Ichigo can block a vice captain's shikai with his bare hands. The behavior makes no sense, if you consider how #1-3s got cornered in a few instances because they kept dodging attacks from VCs and left their backs open. So either Espada #1-3 have no combat sense, or they know they can't even take a hit from a VC.

[lucasd]

And Shunsui and Shinji are of the same age and class!
And he was vizard, "training" 100 years to have revenge....

Power levels in bleach makes no sense whatsoever!

Ulq said he was regenerating type, the best of all arancars, so the first 3 should have more power.
Excluding Baragan which was very haxed, and not killable by other not super kidou users...

[TheRime]

Argh, screw it. This is giving me a headache. You know what really happened? All the espada just picked numbers out of a hat.

[quigonkenny]

The last several pages:

Group 1: You know, given X, Y doesn't make a lot of sense.

Group 2: No way! It's because of Y that X doesn't make any sense!

[repeat ad infinitum]

TL;DR: Kubo can't do continuity...

[Kaze]

Originally Posted by TheRime

Argh, screw it. This is giving me a headache. You know what really happened? All the espada just picked numbers out of a hat.

This.
Is probably what happened

[Haak]

Originally Posted by JustRob

It's a shame Komamura didn't fight the Espada, I mean he had to use bankai on a fraccion. I can only imagine the trouble an Espada would give him.

It's hard to say whether or not he actually had to since he didn't even bother using his shikai. He just went all out and made short work of Po in the process.

Regardless, he's still unbelievably underappreciated. Kubo let Hisagi do better against Tousen, most likely because Hisagi has a bigger fanbase.

[Kafriel]

Barragan: basically did nothing. Ran away from Omaeda's stupid spiked ball when any captain worth their salt would be able to block it with their bare hands.

Not sure if this is actually happened in the manga, all I remember is Barragan claimed two arms, which is more than any other espada managed to do...

It's a shame Komamura didn't fight the Espada, I mean he had to use bankai on a fraccion. I can only imagine the trouble an Espada would give him.

I think he used bankai as a lesson towards the bankai-denying Ikkaku at the time, can't really judge his strength from that. He did finish the fight rather fast after all...

TL;DR: Kubo can't do continuity...

Ichigo's speed falls into this. Ulq's strength was proportional to his fanbase though, I believe he is way too overrated and his actual power was indeed #4, second release and everything. Masked Ichigo got killed by him, but Stark would have killed two dudes far stronger if not for Shunsui's intervention and Halibel held her own in a 3v1. I believe she also lost to the fan nukes, first to Toushiro and then to Aizen...shame.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by TheRime

Well, I think Byakuya once said that the bankai is basically someone's LAST RESORT.

Remember when Ikkaku got his ass handed to him because he refused to let people see his Bankai, and then Iba kicked him around telling him that the most important thing is winning... Ya that was a smart little speech he made...

The captains and Vizards could learn a thing or two from him

Originally Posted by JustRob

It's a shame Komamura didn't fight the Espada, I mean he had to use bankai on a fraccion. I can only imagine the trouble an Espada would give him.

I wouldn't say that... he one shotted a fraccion. Frankly he did what every other captain should have done; stop screwing around and get the job done... though Komamura does come as one of the weaker captains; he's got quite a bit of physical power but he has a serious lack of balance... plus his Banki rather sucks; seriously he'd probably loose against any moderately fast fighter since you don't need to be THAT fast to dodge it's attacks and his Bankai turns him into a HUGE target

Originally Posted by TheRime

Argh, screw it. This is giving me a headache..

exactly!

[kaito-kid]

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!!

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!!

It is check that again lol

Originally Posted by Slayerx

I wouldn't say that... he one shotted a fraccion. Frankly he did what every other captain should have done; stop screwing around and get the job done... though Komamura does come as one of the weaker captains; he's got quite a bit of physical power but he has a serious lack of balance... plus his Banki rather sucks; seriously he'd probably loose against any moderately fast fighter since you don't need to be THAT fast to dodge it's attacks and his Bankai turns him into a HUGE target

I know it does turn into a huge target

[Cub-Sama]

Another thing that doesn't make sense is that:

VL = Above average captain class (above say someone like Komamura or Hitsugaya).

Arrancarization is supposed to make them more powerful so VL arrancar should = Overkill and need at least 2/3 captains to take down but instead one of the weaker captains (Hitsugaya) can take down an arrancarized Vasto Lorde.

But captain-class Shinigami becomes a vaizard and they're super strong, it doesn't seem fair that only Shinigami get a massive power boost when they blur the lines of shinigami and hollow.

As for Komamura's bankai, having a 50 foot bankai doesn't mean shit when everyone and their grandpa's can lift 100 foot buildings (extreme exaggeration I know).

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by JustRob

It's a shame Komamura didn't fight the Espada, I mean he had to use bankai on a fraccion. I can only imagine the trouble an Espada would give him.

he could dick around like Ikkaku and take unnecessary damage

[secretzfan]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Another thing that doesn't make sense is that:

VL = Above average captain class (above say someone like Komamura or Hitsugaya).

Arrancarization is supposed to make them more powerful so VL arrancar should = Overkill and need at least 2/3 captains to take down but instead one of the weaker captains (Hitsugaya) can take down an arrancarized Vasto Lorde.

But captain-class Shinigami becomes a vaizard and they're super strong, it doesn't seem fair that only Shinigami get a massive power boost when they blur the lines of shinigami and hollow.

As for Komamura's bankai, having a 50 foot bankai doesn't mean shit when everyone and their grandpa's can lift 100 foot buildings (extreme exaggeration I know).

Results are incorrect defiantly. you can't put out things we still aren't sure about. For one will never know who would win in the battle against Toshiro and Tia. Don't forget that the Vizards lost to arrancarized VL like Starrk

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

he could dick around like Ikkaku and take unnecessary damage

Actually, Komaura's Shikai is better than his Bankai when you think about it

His shikai manafests the various body parts of the giant armor, thus allowing him to have similar destructive power, but does not manifest the full giant... The giant ends up becoming a handicap because it's huge, slow, and whatever happens to it happens to Kamomura... ok, yes the giant probably has MUCH higher defence than Komamura himself does, but any moderatly fast fighter will be able to fly around dodging it's attacks and their smaller attacks are bound to add up in damage... I mean, Komamura may not have as high of a defnce as his armor, but he himself atleast would be able to dodge or block such attacks

honestly, any smart adjucas would just stand outside of it's reach and just fire cero's at it... even the weak cero could do some damage with enough hits...

now if Komamura's Bankai were able to fight more quickly, THEN it might be a worth it to have that handicap... as it stand that Bankai is only useful against really slow enemies like common gillians or Po