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Old 2021-05-01, 18:33   Link #141
Alchemist007
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Intense episode, with Vivy having to confront more emotional trauma as a consequence of her actions.
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Old 2021-05-01, 19:07   Link #142
Kazu-kun
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This episode went on a different direction than I thought, but the ending was good. Regardless of whether Matsumoto is the evil mastermind or not, it's a fact that his mission and Vivy's aren't completely aligned. She strives to make people happy with her song. He just wants to save the future (if we take him as face value). And sometimes, like this time, what he asks of her will put her at odds with her mission. Here and now, rather then making people happy, she made someone so unhappy it drove them to death.

The question is, what is she gonna do about it? She claimed she would only follow Matsumoto if it didn't interfere with her mission. Will she follow through on that, or will she just keep doing his bidding? We'll find out soon enough I guess.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2021-05-01 at 19:24.
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Old 2021-05-01, 19:34   Link #143
Applehell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
This episode went on a different direction than I thought, but the ending was good. Regardless of whether Matsumoto is the evil mastermind or not, it's a fact that his mission and Vivy's aren't completely aligned. She strives to make people happy with her song. He just wants to save the future (if we take him as face value). And sometimes, like this time, what he asks of her will put her at odds with her mission. Here and now, rather then making people happy, she made someone so unhappy it drove them to death.

The question is, what is she gonna do about it? She claimed she would only follow Matsumoto if it didn't interfere with her mission. Will she follow through on, or will she just keep doing his bidding? We'll find out soon enough I guess.
I think your completely off base here.

The actions Vivy has taken outside of Matsumoto's calculations have been cause of have been cause of rapid evolution of AIs. She was the one who influenced that mediocre politician who actually didn't care about AIs to create a stronger law. She was the one who wanted clear Estella's name which led to Sunrise crash instead of following Matsumoto original plan to simply destroy Estella, which help accelerated AI evolution further. Matsumoto didn't just stopping the crash so there wouldn't backlash to AIs or more acceptance to them.

Vivy undertook this mission with Matsumoto to prevent humanity destruction from AIs to due a series incidents that built up tension between the two and sped up their growth. That means she will have to accept there gonna be some consequences those actions and not everyone will always end happy even if those actions are ultimately a net good for everyone else. That not going make her turn around think Matsunmoto is evil cause you think he is nor do break from him cause of her mandate which I have already said she & other AI have discretion interpreting how to follow.

Besides there is literally is no story without the two working together as Vivy just go back to singing and then ending up in museum. This show is not being boiled down to Vivy is good and Matsumoto is evil at least not to me so far. Matsumoto mention from very outset of this story there would also be tragedies on this 100 year journey so regardless of what one thinks of Matsumoto that should be expected. I think this going to be a point for her to evolve further & reflect what this journey means to her personally.
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Old 2021-05-01, 19:48   Link #144
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Matsumoto can not be running on just his history files,there have been too many changes. So he has to have data taps on basically everything on the net including the anti-AI groups. Yet he seems to keep missing all kinds of info about the situation he gets them into. How did he miss Grace being the core?

And if just trying to turn an AI off makes it go nuts why is it not happening all over the place? If it is just the protect human bits of the mission you should end up with security bots going rogue every time the new models come out and they get replaced.
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Old 2021-05-01, 19:59   Link #145
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehell View Post
I think your completely off base here.
Maybe you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehell View Post
That means she will have to accept there gonna be some consequences those actions and not everyone will always end happy even if those actions are ultimately a net good for everyone else.
Look, even if Matsumoto is not evil, asking Vivy to sacrifice her mission of making people happy in order to save the future is ultimately meaningless. Her mission isn't just a program, it's what defines her as a person. If she has to give it all up, you gotta wonder if saving the future is even worth it.

Besides, Matsumoto's plan to save the future involves destroying all the androids. Vivy herself said so in this episode. But there's no way destroying the androids is the right thing to do. They are pretty much alive, and they have proved to be capable of goodness. Vivy herself is proof of that, and it's not just her. So how could Matsumoto's solution be the way to go? There's gotta be another way, a way to save the future without destroying the androids and without sacrificing what's personally important to Vivy. If it turns out Matsumoto is not evil, then perhaps the point of the show is for Vivy to figure out how to save the world the right way.

On another note, I'm still not convinced that Matsumoto is telling the truth. There's still too many things that don't add up about him.
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Old 2021-05-01, 22:05   Link #146
moridin84
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Hmm, since it wasn't intended, it is still possible that Matsumoto messed with the virus when scanned it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Applehell
The actions Vivy has taken outside of Matsumoto's calculations have been cause of have been cause of rapid evolution of AIs. She was the one who influenced that mediocre politician who actually didn't care about AIs to create a stronger law. She was the one who wanted clear Estella's name which led to Sunrise crash instead of following Matsumoto original plan to simply destroy Estella, which help accelerated AI evolution further. Matsumoto didn't just stopping the crash so there wouldn't backlash to AIs or more acceptance to them.
Yeah, most of the results seem to be a direct consequence of Vivy doing what she wants as opposed to what Matsumoto tells her to do.

Can Matsumoto really manipulate her to doing these exact actions?

At the same time, Matsumoto doesn't seem THAT bothered about all the changes. It doesn't feel like he is "trying to make the best of a bad situation" whenever he appears at the start of the arc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Look, even if Matsumoto is not evil, asking Vivy to sacrifice her mission of making people happy in order to save the future is ultimately meaningless. Her mission isn't just a program, it's what defines her as a person. If she has to give it all up, you gotta wonder if saving the future is even worth it.
I'd value saving the future from the AI apocalypse over Vivy's sense of self.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun
Besides, Matsumoto's plan to save the future involves destroying all the androids. Vivy herself said so in this episode. But there's no way destroying the androids is the right thing to do.
I'm pretty sure the plan isn't to destroy all androids. Just some of the androids they need to save the future.
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Old 2021-05-01, 22:45   Link #147
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
I'd value saving the future from the AI apocalypse over Vivy's sense of self.
It's not just that. If Vivy does things Matsumoto's way, she'll most likely destroy all androids, or at least all the most advanced ones, those who are her kin, her sisters. Those androids are pretty much alive and deserve to live and be happy as much as any human does. And it's not just the androids, but also the people who love those androids or who were saved or would have been saved by them. Those people are gonna suffer too. Those androids and all those people aren't less deserving of life and happiness than the people from the future.

There's no way that saving the people from the future justifies so much suffering and death in the present. There's gotta be another way because this is definitely not the right thing to do.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2021-05-01 at 22:56.
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Old 2021-05-01, 23:24   Link #148
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I wonder if that shot of Vivy's hands being stained with red and blue blood at the end was a reference to The Matrix.

Especially when you factor in her reaction and all that.
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Old 2021-05-01, 23:33   Link #149
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I don't think it had anything to do with The Matrix. Diva seeing the blood on its hands probably made it realize that what it did conflicted with its mission to make everyone happy with its singing, which led to a malfunction/breakdown. And yeah, I am not going to refer to it as a her when it is a machine. It may look like a woman, but it's still a machine.
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Old 2021-05-02, 03:40   Link #150
moridin84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's not just that. If Vivy does things Matsumoto's way, she'll most likely destroy all androids, or at least all the most advanced ones, those who are her kin, her sisters. Those androids are pretty much alive and deserve to live and be happy as much as any human does. And it's not just the androids, but also the people who love those androids or who were saved or would have been saved by them. Those people are gonna suffer too. Those androids and all those people aren't less deserving of life and happiness than the people from the future.

There's no way that saving the people from the future justifies so much suffering and death in the present. There's gotta be another way because this is definitely not the right thing to do.
Every action she has taken, that Matsumoto asked her to make, has had her save lives.

This arc is the most iffy one so far but I think you are really jumping to the worse confusion without evidence.
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Old 2021-05-02, 03:55   Link #151
serenade_beta
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The anime tries to go philosophical with "Ooh, that's not a song. That's just data!", but at the same time, it tries to talk about an AI's conscience?

Also, I know it is supposed to be a serious scene, but I couldn't help notice (not helped by the fact there is a scene of her leaving and a scene of her running) how the guy shot himself and blood somehow flew alllllll the way onto Vivy's face.
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Old 2021-05-02, 05:49   Link #152
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Matsumoto is still clearly on the "sketchy" scala, but probably he is about as clueless as Vivy for what is actually going to happen now, given how extensively "his" version of history has been changed.

Interesting how Vivy is not appearing in the preview. I can already imagine Matsumoto rearing his own replacement for her, only to have her stabilize Vivy somehow, so that we can have our MC back.

I find it very irritating, though, that the show is actively avoiding having Toak explain their motivations and sporadic actions. The time jump every second episode ain't helping with that at all. It's a fascinating scenario, but makes for uneven storytelling.
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Old 2021-05-02, 06:10   Link #153
Liddo-kun
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episode 6:

was simply blown away by this episode

the fight sequence to get to the core as Vivy flies with Matsumoto.. simply amazing.

M-205 nearly got her with the self detruct..

sad that Grace had to be destroyed, but it had to be done..

Saeki cannot accept the death of his waifu, commit suicide.

Vivy now has blood of human and ai on her hands.

looking forward to next week!!
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Old 2021-05-02, 09:06   Link #154
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Spoiler for Episode 6:
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Old 2021-05-02, 17:06   Link #155
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I thought I sensed a lack of... love... between the professor and his "wife". They smiled, they did the minimum of interaction. But there was no love. Like after he went back inside, she just went back to tending to her walking plants. No exchange. No companionship. It's great when an anime can convey bits of a story without having to spell it out.
That wasn't the real wife. She was already controlling the island by then. That was the replacement android who had no personality because the professor was intending to put the wife in there. I think their standoffish behavior was intentional on the part of the writers.

I find this sequence in the OP very impressive. Think of how long it took to choose each frame and then paste them all together.

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Old 2021-05-03, 00:48   Link #156
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Yeah, the instances of the researcher not interacting with his "wife" were definitely foreshadowing. Very much a show, don't tell kind of thing. That's what I meant.

I noticed something else with episode 6. I think we actually got a major piece to Terrorist Boy's backstory. Right before Diva leaves the ship she put the injured Toak members on, right around 8:34 into the episode, we see a flashback to Terrorist Boy as a young boy playing piano along someone. He's really enjoying himself. But look closer, and you'll spot that although the person is largely out of focus, they are wearing something on a string around their neck. And in the present day Terrorist Boy is still wearing that same thing.

Now, skip back to episode 2 around 16:18, and Terrorist Boy squeezes this same set of objects in anger at having failed his mission. It's hard to tell, but I think maybe the "adult" playing the piano is one of the more primitive AIs. It's right hand just looks a bit unnatural... though it could just be a human wearing a glove. But, back in episode 2, I think it's now pretty clear that Terrorist Boy was gripping a pair of piano keys!

I think something tragic happened between Terrorist Boy and AIs several years ago. 5 - 10 years before Diva was even born. And, given what Terrorist Boy says to Diva about how AIs should just follow the orders of humans, I'm guessing that an AI failed to follow his orders as part of a tragedy. Maybe an AI went rampant and didn't follow instructions? Maybe an AI choose disobey his orders and saved him and not a loved one? Something like that. We don't have the full story, yet, but the pieces are starting to fit together. We're going to find out why Terrorist Boy is so angry at AIs sooner or later.
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Old 2021-05-03, 16:12   Link #157
Applehell
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This is fantastic episode review which better explains the point I have been making this thread. Its my fave it take on the episode so far.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/rev...sode-6/.172356

Quote:
But while this all makes for a situation filled with drama, tragedy, and a jet bike action scene, what's far more interesting is how it affects Vivy and redefines the limits of AI in this fictional world.

The AIs in Vivy -Fluorite Eye's Song- are built around the simple idea that each AI can only have one mission. Now, it's important to note that this is not a rule imposed by humans, but a core principle behind all functioning AIs. An AI with two missions, even should they be something as simple as “do data entry” and “feed the baby when it cries,” is incapable of doing either task.

However, as we have seen so far, AIs who live complex enough lives are able to redefine how they interpret their mission, allowing them to act in ways only tangentially related to their original mission—like a life-keeper AI running a space hotel or becoming a human-killing terrorist.

Vivy, however, has changed more than most due to her age and experiences. In the last arc, we saw her install combat data that could possibly affect her ability to carry out her primary mission—to bring happiness to humans through singing. This episode, we see her put into words how she has been able to rationalize her actions: Vivy has given herself a second mission.

However, she has managed to prevent total breakdown by compartmentalizing her two missions; in other words, by defining herself as two different people. Diva is an AI who brings happiness through song. Vivy, on the other hand, is an AI who will destroy AIs to stop the robot apocalypse. When on a mission with Matsumoto, she is Vivy. When she is not, she is Diva. In the short term, this seperation seems to work. However, at the end of the episode, we see what happens when her actions as Vivy directly contradict her main mission as Diva.
The one thing I failed to realize here is that evolution had basically happened to Estella, Elizabeth and even Grace. The later is especially important because her mission was ultimately supposed to be in service of humanity yet she's killing humans to justify forfilling that core directive. Shows that you don't need some kind of virus to make AI to war with humans in the future, they can twist their core directives in order to resolve internal contradictory dilemma within them and effectively give themselves a new one. Like remember how the AI's in the first episode were totally behavior in opposition to their statements. They were helping people by murdering them.

So there very will may come a time Vivy will justly killing a person to follow her own core directive. But the ultimate point here that once again that while AI live to follow their missions, they can decide how to do that. Anyway its even more reason to avoid conflict between humans and AI.

Anyway, whats happening now will be a new way for Vivy to evolve further. She can't go back to just what she was in the beginning, she will have to press on or stand still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
Matsumoto can not be running on just his history files,there have been too many changes. So he has to have data taps on basically everything on the net including the anti-AI groups. Yet he seems to keep missing all kinds of info about the situation he gets them into. How did he miss Grace being the core?

And if just trying to turn an AI off makes it go nuts why is it not happening all over the place? If it is just the protect human bits of the mission you should end up with security bots going rogue every time the new models come out and they get replaced.
There is a pretty simple explanation for that. Grace most likely wasn't used for the core of the original Metal Float in Matsumoto's timeline. The one here was stated have come 20 years too early. The current timeline is still pretty similar to Matsumoto, just several discrepancies thanks to his and Vivy's previous actions so its natural not every part of his data will lineup like aforementioned Metal Float. Also Grace or what's left of her is what caused the other AI to go crazy, mainly to defend Metal Float.

Last edited by Applehell; 2021-05-03 at 16:25.
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Old 2021-05-03, 16:30   Link #158
Ragashingo
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Yeah, I like the Diva vs Vivy personas.

On the subject of the Metal Float AIs… I don’t think they went crazy. I think Vivy killed them all in Episode 5. We saw that even the construction AIs like M were full AIs with their own personal Archive space. We’re later told that they’re all Grace by the end and I think that’s literal. The shutdown virus killed the other AIs on the island then Grace split herself a thousand ways to fill that void. The episode is filled with good intentions leading to the worst results. I think this was just another example.
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Old 2021-05-03, 20:09   Link #159
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Quote:
However, as we have seen so far, AIs who live complex enough lives are able to redefine how they interpret their mission, allowing them to act in ways only tangentially related to their original mission—like a life-keeper AI running a space hotel or becoming a human-killing terrorist.
Or, anything can be interpreted as anything thus the AI can do anything the story wants, meaning that the setting exists just to exist.
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Old 2021-05-03, 21:26   Link #160
Applehell
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I mean if you want play that way you can the samething about any narrative device.

Narrative device exists in stories so that authors justify and expand concepts within them in the context of the setting. Evolution, subversion etc happens of those devices happen all the time, as long as the show doesn't break its own integral logic & sets foundation for those things to occur it is fine.

Like literally in ep 1, Vivy took up Matsumoto's task with him because he made the case that it was tangibly related to her own mission and she accepted that reasoning alter reflecting on it herself. At the point she had already created a second (or even sub) core directive, but one that's still tied to her first. So not it didn't come out of nowhere and even the story finally acknowledges what was there all along using Estella and Beth as the other examples when they were forfilling their missions as life keepers for humans, with the only thing changed is how they were doing it. If the want AI to do anything then just do that in the first place, but this show has been about AI evolution from the start who their reason, develop and grapple with their purpose.

Just because you don't like it does not mean that it does not make sense in the shows setting & theme.

Last edited by Applehell; 2021-05-04 at 03:42.
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