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Old 2021-06-06, 03:29   Link #241
magnuskn
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I had to laugh at the death toll of "10.000 and quickly rising". If AI's went berserk worldwide, you'd think that it would be a factor of 1.000 times that number.
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Old 2021-06-06, 11:39   Link #242
SeijiSensei
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I did a double take on that myself. Perhaps they wrote this script before COVID-19? Yesterday 10,240 deaths worldwide were estimated to be the result of the coronavirus. In the US alone, over three thousand people were reported to have died from the disease each day during last fall and this winter.

I was thinking it odd that we see few military AI in this story. No tanks, bombers, or even military satellites with ground-attack capabilities. (Archive has to crash apparently civilian spacecraft to carry out its ends.) Seems pretty unlikely to me that the world's militaries would just step aside and forego using AI technology to enhance weapons. The ethics of AI-driven military weapons is a hot subject right now.

Archive's role in all this reminds me of Psycho-Pass, with a similar eminence grise. Can't say I liked that ending; hope Archive will be a better antagonist.
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Old 2021-06-06, 12:06   Link #243
Magewolf
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Matsumoto is not actually evil,I guess. The reason that the project seemed so stupid is just that everyone involved with it is incredibly incompetent.
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Old 2021-06-06, 12:15   Link #244
Ragashingo
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It could be that military systems are kept separate from the civilian AI network. Would you really want your nuclear missiles getting the same auto software updates as your vacuum cleaner?

Also, it's interesting to note that the Archive said it's mission is to wipe out the current human race and that it can no longer tolerate the current human race. It might be aiming for forced utopia instead of an AI only world...
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Old 2021-06-06, 14:03   Link #245
Thor's Hammer
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Although it appears that Archive is the final boss, this show does go out of the way to be misleading, such as with Estella supposedly crashing the Sunrise Hotel, K-5, an AI Dr. Tatsuya had no affection for, being introduced as Grace, and Ophelia supposedly committing suicide. I'd say it's still unclear whether Archive is the the final boss even though it is possible. I'm not convinced that Archive would troll Vivy by having her song make the AIs go berserk.
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Old 2021-06-06, 16:54   Link #246
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
Matsumoto is not actually evil,I guess. The reason that the project seemed so stupid is just that everyone involved with it is incredibly incompetent.
That really is the problem with this show, isn't it? Like, what was the point of the whole Singularity Project bullshit if the Archive was the culprit all along? It's like Matsumoto (the real-life one) based the project on dumb assumptions instead of actually knowing what was going on. And that basically turns everything that happened meaningless. All the effort, all the suffering, the death of Diva's sisters. Pointless, the whole of it.

And on top of that this is basically a cop out ending. Because now they just have to stop the Archive and that will most likely stop the androids. It's an easy way out, so the show doesn't have to deal with the questions it raised, with the themes.

This is not how you write good fiction.
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Old 2021-06-06, 17:25   Link #247
Blueknight78
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here's what i think what happened and make sense for me, we where in a sort of "half loop", the first time all stuffs happened was different which means what started the war was different from the current one.

in the current timeline what activated the singularity was exactly they actions to prevent the "other one" it's like terminator where don't matter what they try to do to prevent the war, aways something will happen to start the war, it will be just a "different thing" or something like that, then in this new timeline they efforts caught the attention of the archive, they used the archive to talk about it, then the archive learned about the future then each thing happened the archive just witness trought vivi all the pain and suffer she was getting all the suffer of the machines and it started to change the archive to think which humans are just monsters trying to destroy the machines and diva/vivi suffered too much then archive decided to start herself the "singularity as a way for payback for all the suffer vivi had to endure from all the crap they throw to her.
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Old 2021-06-06, 18:17   Link #248
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by Magewolf View Post
Matsumoto is not actually evil,I guess. The reason that the project seemed so stupid is just that everyone involved with it is incredibly incompetent.
I wouldn't call it incompetents at all. This was just a variable they didn't take into account or didn't foresee as a problem.
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Old 2021-06-06, 18:22   Link #249
Liddo-kun
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one easy way to have a season 2.. for example, here at end of season 1, they shut down the server of the Archive at the tower... but it would be later revealed it has backup server somewhere else as a teaser for the next season.

although not sure if extending this anime would be a good thing..

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2021-06-06 at 18:37.
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Old 2021-06-06, 20:21   Link #250
serenade_beta
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He had a child?!
When?! Where?! He had time to romance around?!
If you are gonna do the "He had a child" route, you didn't have to turn him into a robot just to get him to antagonize another generation.

BTW, the current world population is 7.9 billion. 10000 died when AI around the world revolted. Humans apparently only have guns because... uhh... Sure.
These AI suck ass at killing people, clearly.
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Old 2021-06-06, 20:28   Link #251
Thor's Hammer
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I really hope there is no Season 2. Vivy is fine as a standlone 1-cour series. It does not need a second cour.

And I'm just going to toot my own horn for confidently claiming that Matsumoto was never evil in the first place. I knew people were jumping to conclusions based off of what they were accustomed to seeing in other stories. I had been preaching all along that if Matsumoto had been evil that it would literally destroy the entire premise of the show, so I'm glad I was right about that as making Matsumoto evil would have been a sure way to ensure that Vivy ended up as a train wreck. It would have been making Matsumoto evil for the sake of it instead of for a logical reason.
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Old 2021-06-06, 20:50   Link #252
Thor's Hammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
That really is the problem with this show, isn't it? Like, what was the point of the whole Singularity Project bullshit if the Archive was the culprit all along? It's like Matsumoto (the real-life one) based the project on dumb assumptions instead of actually knowing what was going on. And that basically turns everything that happened meaningless. All the effort, all the suffering, the death of Diva's sisters. Pointless, the whole of it.

And on top of that this is basically a cop out ending. Because now they just have to stop the Archive and that will most likely stop the androids. It's an easy way out, so the show doesn't have to deal with the questions it raised, with the themes.

This is not how you write good fiction.
I think the show has done a good job on one of its themes (which might be the main theme of this show) without explicitly shoving it down people's throats, and that would be that merely copying an AIs experience data does not result in an actual clone being produced, which is why Elizabeth was a failure, not being a true copy of Estella. Then with the case with Grace, Diva and Matsumoto shot down Dr. Tatsuya's suggestion to upload Grace's data into K-5 as being a viable way to save it. Now, with this Elizabeth 2.0, it's a copy of Elizabeth that is not exactly the same and seems to behave differently than the original. We also had the case with Diva after its reboot that the Diva that came into being acted very diva-like indeed in comparison to who Vivy was then and now. I like Tappei's take on this as I strongly believe that stuff like mind uploading will not work out because it's impossible to clone a person perfectly given that the clone wouldn't have actually experienced everything the original experienced. I do think that this final arc will end with Vivy coming to terms with itself and its unique existence as a being, whatever that entails.
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Old 2021-06-07, 07:45   Link #253
Applehell
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I'm not seeing the issue with this plot twist at all. In fact makes so much sense with the setting than something like Matsumoto is evil cause "red eyes" & he let some people die in event was outside the scope of his mission. Nevermind if he were than he literally just have do nothing or let Vivy get destroyed nullifying the very point he came to the past to begin with

The Archive is basically this series Skynet, its not new concept in sci-fi, but certainly an unexpected & impressive twist. It was mentioned as a global network earlier, but I hadn't considered it might actually been sentiment and not just a bunch of aggregate data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
He had a child?!
When?! Where?! He had time to romance around?!
If you are gonna do the "He had a child" route, you didn't have to turn him into a robot just to get him to antagonize another generation.

BTW, the current world population is 7.9 billion. 10000 died when AI around the world revolted. Humans apparently only have guns because... uhh... Sure.
These AI suck ass at killing people, clearly.
I also don't see the problem with Yugo having a child at all? We don't know much about anything he's been doing in-between his encounters with Vivy & Matsumoto. Like what in world would made that implausible over the 80 or so years?

As for 2nd point, Al killed that many because had quickly becasue it was sudden & literally no defense against it. At that point AI are everywhere in the world they couldn't be shutdown due to the Archive overriding them. For that matter none of guns being used in the show are normal ones like we have so I'm not sure what issue you have with tthem. They aren't firing lead bullets or something.

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Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer View Post
I really hope there is no Season 2. Vivy is fine as a standlone 1-cour series. It does not need a second cour.

And I'm just going to toot my own horn for confidently claiming that Matsumoto was never evil in the first place. I knew people were jumping to conclusions based off of what they were accustomed to seeing in other stories. I had been preaching all along that if Matsumoto had been evil that it would literally destroy the entire premise of the show, so I'm glad I was right about that as making Matsumoto evil would have been a sure way to ensure that Vivy ended up as a train wreck. It would have been making Matsumoto evil for the sake of it instead of for a logical reason.
Exactly. Matsumoto is highly goal orientated (and as I predicted he started to mellow out of it over the course of the show) but he's not acted in some kind of nefarious manner. Really for the first 5 episode he often insisted going for the most optimal results and even then he made concessions to Vivy's whims as long as they were reasonable.
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Old 2021-06-07, 08:15   Link #254
magnuskn
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Not sure if it is an "impressive twist" when it came out of nowhere, with zero foreshadowing. Maybe they can deliver that in the next episode by pointing out all the things we overlooked, but I'm kinda doubtful.
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Old 2021-06-07, 09:01   Link #255
Nachtwandler
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It really bothers me how people fiercely defend the plot in ReZero S2 or here but trash the one in Sigdrifa. That series was way more consistent.
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Old 2021-06-07, 15:25   Link #256
frubam
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What exactly did Vivy "save" Dr. Matsumoto from? He claims during the initialization point of the project(when the robots were about to kill him in the room) that she saved him from "rock bottom". I don't see where this event actually happened. He didn't have any friends in the beginning as a kid, but had no kind of looks of despair or anything; seemed like simply a big fan of Diva when they first met. Even without Diva, he seemed capable of building his life, which he did and only came to talk to Diva every once in a while.

Now the previous timeline had a "different" Diva, instead of Vivy, so its possible something different happened then but... I terms of the current timeline, I just think this doesn't make much sense :thinking:.
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Old 2021-06-07, 18:35   Link #257
Thor's Hammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frubam View Post
What exactly did Vivy "save" Dr. Matsumoto from? He claims during the initialization point of the project(when the robots were about to kill him in the room) that she saved him from "rock bottom". I don't see where this event actually happened. He didn't have any friends in the beginning as a kid, but had no kind of looks of despair or anything; seemed like simply a big fan of Diva when they first met. Even without Diva, he seemed capable of building his life, which he did and only came to talk to Diva every once in a while.

Now the previous timeline had a "different" Diva, instead of Vivy, so its possible something different happened then but... I terms of the current timeline, I just think this doesn't make much sense :thinking:.
Not everyone outwardly shows despair, and there wasn't a focus on Matsumoto's thoughts when he was a child, so viewers wouldn't really know whether he felt that. Perhaps Diva saved him by being his first friend.
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Old 2021-06-08, 06:04   Link #258
moridin84
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
That really is the problem with this show, isn't it? Like, what was the point of the whole Singularity Project bullshit if the Archive was the culprit all along? It's like Matsumoto (the real-life one) based the project on dumb assumptions instead of actually knowing what was going on. And that basically turns everything that happened meaningless. All the effort, all the suffering, the death of Diva's sisters. Pointless, the whole of it.

And on top of that this is basically a cop out ending. Because now they just have to stop the Archive and that will most likely stop the androids. It's an easy way out, so the show doesn't have to deal with the questions it raised, with the themes.

This is not how you write good fiction.
I guess Vivy is going to beat up the Archive and draw some self-satisfied conclusion.

Because every single arc in this anime has been solved with violence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor's Hammer View Post
I really hope there is no Season 2. Vivy is fine as a standlone 1-cour series. It does not need a second cour.

And I'm just going to toot my own horn for confidently claiming that Matsumoto was never evil in the first place. I knew people were jumping to conclusions based off of what they were accustomed to seeing in other stories. I had been preaching all along that if Matsumoto had been evil that it would literally destroy the entire premise of the show, so I'm glad I was right about that as making Matsumoto evil would have been a sure way to ensure that Vivy ended up as a train wreck. It would have been making Matsumoto evil for the sake of it instead of for a logical reason.
Matsumoto being evil would have been more interesting.

I actually can't think of how it would make sense, so saying that is probably unfair.

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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Not sure if it is an "impressive twist" when it came out of nowhere, with zero foreshadowing. Maybe they can deliver that in the next episode by pointing out all the things we overlooked, but I'm kinda doubtful.
I'm not actually sure I'd consider it to be a twist.

They never really explained or hinted at what actually started the AI war. It always felt like more of a way to jumpstart each arc. It never seemed important.

Honestly, I just stopped wondering about why it started. So when the anime comes along and says "it was the Archive along!" my reaction is just "oh okay". Especially when the Archive has been such a non-entity this entire time.

As a funny aside, the Sunrise plot twist of "it was actually Estella's evil sister!" is the same plot twist of "So I Married an Axe Murderer".
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Old 2021-06-08, 23:11   Link #259
scififan
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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
I guess Vivy is going to beat up the Archive and draw some self-satisfied conclusion.

Because every single arc in this anime has been solved with violence.
The show became more fun after Vivy learns martial arts.

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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post

Matsumoto being evil would have been more interesting.

I actually can't think of how it would make sense, so saying that is probably unfair.
Well, he coerced and persuade Vivy to join his cause, since she is not affected by the killer AI outbreak.

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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
I'm not actually sure I'd consider it to be a twist.

They never really explained or hinted at what actually started the AI war. It always felt like more of a way to jumpstart each arc. It never seemed important.
The hint of the show is Solarwinds Sunburst Attack. Not really.

From several episodes ago, Matsumoto's deduction is that Ophelia's suicide might give other AIs bad ideas. So, he must altered the history. Somehow, the history led to the decision of the Archive.


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Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
Honestly, I just stopped wondering about why it started. So when the anime comes along and says "it was the Archive along!" my reaction is just "oh okay". Especially when the Archive has been such a non-entity this entire time.
Yeah, the Archive is just a classroom with personality. After Vivy witnessed a human suicide, she doubted her mission to make human happy, with her music. Afterall, she figured she must keep humans alive before she can make them happy. Vivy saved Yugo in many occassion. Vivy shutted herself down and backed herself up in the Archive. The backup process(Diva) kicked in. Yugo felt angry, because he saw his former piano teacher in Vivy. The teacher AI's sole mission is to teach music to human. Thus, the teacher AI an to preserve the existence of humans. The outcome was losing his own existence. Yugo erased Diva's program to interrogate Vivy, but he died before he got the chance. Before being wiped out, Diva went to the Archive to ask Vivy's return.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moridin84 View Post
As a funny aside, the Sunrise plot twist of "it was actually Estella's evil sister!" is the same plot twist of "So I Married an Axe Murderer".
Elizabeth is the exact replica of Estella's AI code, but the AI failed to do same task as the original. No explanation was given other than the new hardware is incompatible with the original's code. Since Elizabeth could not be the backup AI for Estella, she was trashed by researchers. Elizabeth was salvaged by the terrorist group and reprogramming tto be their fighting machine. She was defeated by Vivy in martial art tournment. She decided to stay on the ship as Estella. The terrorist groupd still had their backed up copy of Elizabeth AI code.
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Old 2021-06-08, 23:41   Link #260
Thor's Hammer
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Originally Posted by scififan View Post
Elizabeth is the exact replica of Estella's AI code, but the AI failed to do same task as the original. No explanation was given other than the new hardware is incompatible with the original's code. Since Elizabeth could not be the backup AI for Estella, she was trashed by researchers. Elizabeth was salvaged by the terrorist group and reprogramming tto be their fighting machine. She was defeated by Vivy in martial art tournment. She decided to stay on the ship as Estella. The terrorist groupd still had their backed up copy of Elizabeth AI code.
You are really off. The reason Elizabeth was a failure was because the project was meant to see whether Elizabeth seeing everything Estella experienced would make it an exact copy of Estella, but it didn't work out that way because Elizabeth did not actually experience everything Estella did, which is a direct criticism against mind uploading, that is popular in some circles, resulting in perfect copies being formed of the original. A successful mind upload would result in a perfect clone being formed, but the inability to actually experience everything the original actually experienced results in the creation of a separate being or consciousness instead of a carbon copy, making it so that the concept of mind uploading is flawed.

There was no martial arts tournament.

Elizabeth did not stay on the ship as Estella as the reformatting virus reset Elizabeth to its original condition as Elizabeth.

Yes, Toak did have Elizabeth's experience data backed up, which allowed Elizabeth to be salvaged, but predictably so, this version of Elizabeth remarks that it isn't the same as the Elizabeth Vivy knew because merely backing up and reloading experience data does not mean it experienced what Elizabeth did, so this Elizabeth in Episode 11 is a functionally different character.
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