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Old 2021-06-07, 20:39   Link #34241
XFire
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Then where's Ryougi supposed to be in Tsukihime?
In her city killing ghosts?
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Old 2021-06-08, 03:40   Link #34242
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Then where's Ryougi supposed to be in Tsukihime?
Probably doing yakuza things or dead, depending on how her personal history might've changed.
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Old 2021-06-08, 11:59   Link #34243
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Nah, it's in the Tsukihime "setting", in the same way that Fate Apocrypha is in the "Fate" setting.
Actually Case Files and Adventures made it clear that the events of KnK happens in Fate/Stay Night's timeline.

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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Then where's Ryougi supposed to be in Tsukihime?
Only one pair of MEoDP can exist at a time, so Ryougi at least never acquired them in Tsukihime timelines.
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Old 2021-06-08, 13:29   Link #34244
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Actually Case Files and Adventures made it clear that the events of KnK happens in Fate/Stay Night's timeline.

Only one pair of MEoDP can exist at a time, so Ryougi at least never acquired them in Tsukihime timelines.
Nasu said it was connected to Tsukihime though. When asked about doing a crossover he said they were "small happenings in the same world"

And there isnt a limitation on the number that can exist, it's just that the way they come about is so specific it's almost impossible to manifest.

In the first place the two Shiki's have different forms of of the eyes. Tohno has the actual eyes, Ryougi has a more powerful version that's more a manifestation of VOID Shiki.
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Old 2021-06-08, 13:48   Link #34245
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Nasu said it was connected to Tsukihime though. When asked about doing a crossover he said they were "small happenings in the same world"

And there isnt a limitation on the number that can exist, it's just that the way they come about is so specific it's almost impossible to manifest.

In the first place the two Shiki's have different forms of of the eyes. Tohno has the actual eyes, Ryougi has a more powerful version that's more a manifestation of VOID Shiki.
Well technically "Inifinite worlds- Infinite possibilities" which makes me lol every time someone says Servants and the DAA's /As Organisation) can't exist at the same time.
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Old 2021-06-08, 14:02   Link #34246
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Well technically "Inifinite worlds- Infinite possibilities" which makes me lol every time someone says Servants and the DAA's /As Organisation) can't exist at the same time.
They aren't infinite, though. The World (presumably the planet specifically in this case) has a limited amount of energy and slices off possibilities that it considers dead ends. The whole "Pruning Phenomenon" that created the Lostbelts, basically.
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Old 2021-06-08, 17:13   Link #34247
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
They aren't infinite, though. The World (presumably the planet specifically in this case) has a limited amount of energy and slices off possibilities that it considers dead ends. The whole "Pruning Phenomenon" that created the Lostbelts, basically.
So there could be a Lostbelt where DAAs have HGWs for fun and profit...
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Old 2021-06-08, 19:01   Link #34248
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So there could be a Lostbelt where DAAs have HGWs for fun and profit...
Now there's a terrifying thought
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Old 2021-06-08, 22:09   Link #34249
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Nasu said it was connected to Tsukihime though. When asked about doing a crossover he said they were "small happenings in the same world"
That was before the soft retcon where he introduced the concept of Fate worlds and Tsukihime worlds.

Quote:
And there isnt a limitation on the number that can exist, it's just that the way they come about is so specific it's almost impossible to manifest.
Pretty sure the new lore is that there really can't have more than one pair at a time.

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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
They aren't infinite, though. The World (presumably the planet specifically in this case) has a limited amount of energy and slices off possibilities that it considers dead ends. The whole "Pruning Phenomenon" that created the Lostbelts, basically.
The World means Alaya in this case. The Human Order is inherently unstable (which is why it would literally peel off the planet like old duct tape with anchors like Rhongomyniad) so it cannot sustain infinite timelines and gets rid of the dead weight.
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Old 2021-06-09, 02:06   Link #34250
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Just finished section 18, I want to hug Jinako and Lakshmi so badly. It's Bedivere's ordeal all over again, and that BGM opened the waterworks.
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Old 2021-06-09, 05:47   Link #34251
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
They aren't infinite, though. The World (presumably the planet specifically in this case) has a limited amount of energy and slices off possibilities that it considers dead ends. The whole "Pruning Phenomenon" that created the Lostbelts, basically.
The possibilities are infinite, but the majority get erased because isn't fitting a weird "Consensus" of History that accumulates the "resources" of energy.

Also, this is the worst thing Nasu came up with his world-building and makes me glad both the real Da Vinci and Roman are dead so they can't be stained with the rest of Chaldea part 2.
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Old 2021-06-09, 07:28   Link #34252
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Actually Case Files and Adventures made it clear that the events of KnK happens in Fate/Stay Night's timeline.



Only one pair of MEoDP can exist at a time, so Ryougi at least never acquired them in Tsukihime timelines.
Then who did the Root get stuck to? Because Ryougi is pretty much unqiue in this aspect so far
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Old 2021-06-09, 08:15   Link #34253
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
The possibilities are infinite, but the majority get erased because isn't fitting a weird "Consensus" of History that accumulates the "resources" of energy.
Never heard anything about it being the majority of timelines that get erased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Then who did the Root get stuck to? Because Ryougi is pretty much unqiue in this aspect so far
Who knows? Maybe the Ryougi got wiped out or never came up with the idea they did on those timelines, or Shiki never ended with those specific circumstances that led to her getting the eyes.
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Old 2021-06-09, 08:22   Link #34254
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
That was before the soft retcon where he introduced the concept of Fate worlds and Tsukihime worlds.
No? He specifically addressed that retcon as making Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai "subtly shifted parallel worlds" as opposed to literally the same world.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Pretty sure the new lore is that there really can't have more than one pair at a time.
The only lore concerning it is Arcuied saying that its "virtually impossible" for more than one to exist because of the circumstances of its creation being so unlikely.

But again Ryougi doesn't actually have the eyes Arc is talking about, she has something super similar as a result of VOID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
The World means Alaya in this case. The Human Order is inherently unstable (which is why it would literally peel off the planet like old duct tape with anchors like Rhongomyniad) so it cannot sustain infinite timelines and gets rid of the dead weight.
All Textures are like that, though. Including the ones outside the Human Order. It's why the Lostbelts get zapped if the Tree is gone.
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Old 2021-06-09, 10:51   Link #34255
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They aren't infinite, though. The World (presumably the planet specifically in this case) has a limited amount of energy and slices off possibilities that it considers dead ends. The whole "Pruning Phenomenon" that created the Lostbelts, basically.
Going by what is being said in FGO:

There are several Parallell universes existing next to each other on one side, and each can have different properhuman histories.

For example,

In the Proto Paralell, Artoria isn't part of Proper human history, but Arthur is.

In Normal Fate ones however, Arthur isn't part of Proper Human History, but Arthoria is.
So you basically have

Dimension A with it's own pruned histories,
Dimension B with it's own pruned histories, and so on.

Which is what makes the statement not thought through in advance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
So there could be a Lostbelt where DAAs have HGWs for fun and profit...
HGW?
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Old 2021-06-09, 11:02   Link #34256
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Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix View Post
Going by what is being said in FGO:

There are several Parallell universes existing next to each other on one side, and each can have different properhuman histories.

For example,

In the Proto Paralell, Artoria isn't part of Proper human history, but Arthur is.

In Normal Fate ones however, Arthur isn't part of Proper Human History, but Arthoria is.
So you basically have

Dimension A with it's own pruned histories,
Dimension B with it's own pruned histories, and so on.

Which is what makes the statement not thought through in advance.
Nope. Proper Human History isnt a single timeline but a collection of possibilities. For example all three of the FSN timelines are part of Proper Human History.

That said the Prototype timeline isnt part of Proper Human History. It has entirely separate rules (like the Counter Force is evidently absent as Proto Gil is capable of physically destroying the world) and Proto Arthur is a world traveler like Musashi who came from what is presumably a pruned timeline.
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Old 2021-06-09, 11:34   Link #34257
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Looks like JP players are getting some interesting stuff in the next update.

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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
No? He specifically addressed that retcon as making Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai "subtly shifted parallel worlds" as opposed to literally the same world.
Wasn't that the statement to explain the mistake with the dates?

In any case, we know for a fact that KnK happens in Fate timelines because we literally see Mikiya and Mana in Adventures and Tsukihime can't happen in those timelines, so my point stands.

Quote:
The only lore concerning it is Arcuied saying that its "virtually impossible" for more than one to exist because of the circumstances of its creation being so unlikely.
Arcuied mentions in Plus Disc that the two Shikis can never meet because it'll cause inconsistencies.

Quote:
But again Ryougi doesn't actually have the eyes Arc is talking about, she has something super similar as a result of VOID.
Yeah, first I'm hearing of this.
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Last edited by Endscape; 2021-06-09 at 11:49.
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Old 2021-06-09, 12:56   Link #34258
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Wasn't that the statement to explain the mistake with the dates?
He was explaining why they have differences in some of their lore, like the way one family passed down their magecraft iirc

The point is that they were originally in the same world and were retconned to be subtly different worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
In any case, we know for a fact that KnK happens in Fate timelines because we literally see Mikiya and Mana in Adventures and Tsukihime can't happen in those timelines, so my point stands.
There is explicitly a timeline in which Shirou and Shiki team up together.

Characters are not exclusive to their "base" timeline. There are versions of them in most worlds, and it's not like the Tsukihime and Fate worlds are totally separate realities. The only dividing point is whether it leans towards the affirmation or [blank space Nasu left on purpose] of Humanity.

Arcuied Brunstead can canonically be called in Fate Extra, for one.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Arcuied mentions in Plus Disc that the two Shikis can never meet because it'll cause inconsistencies.
I can't find anything to that effect. Besides, that implies Arc is aware of her existence despite being in the Tsukihime timeline (presumably if that's the Plus Disk)

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Yeah, first I'm hearing of this.
Her power is classified as ESP and is a natural extension of VOID that only "shares some similarities" with Mystic Eyes, while Shiki's are the result of a bunch of coincidences and also having the Eyes of Clarity.
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Old 2021-06-09, 13:10   Link #34259
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Nope. Proper Human History isnt a single timeline but a collection of possibilities. For example all three of the FSN timelines are part of Proper Human History.

That said the Prototype timeline isnt part of Proper Human History. It has entirely separate rules (like the Counter Force is evidently absent as Proto Gil is capable of physically destroying the world) and Proto Arthur is a world traveler like Musashi who came from what is presumably a pruned timeline.
The moment they said Parallell Worlds, they turned it into what I said, which is why I said Nasu hasn't thought it through to the end.
There isn't a requirement for those worlds to run on the exact same rules either. Also pretty sure that arthur wasn't pruned away, otherwise he wouldn't be in the throne of heroes.
Also pretty sure that Arthur's wasn't pruned. >I can only think of two pruned Servants, which are Yu's husband + Ivan, and in both parties case it looks more as if the Lostbelt somehow affected their spirit origin.
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Old 2021-06-09, 13:23   Link #34260
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The moment they said Parallell Worlds, they turned it into what I said, which is why I said Nasu hasn't thought it through to the end.
There isn't a requirement for those worlds to run on the exact same rules either. Also pretty sure that arthur wasn't pruned away, otherwise he wouldn't be in the throne of heroes.
Also pretty sure that Arthur's wasn't pruned. >I can only think of two pruned Servants, which are Yu's husband + Ivan, and in both parties case it looks more as if the Lostbelt somehow affected their spirit origin.
No, it didn't.

Parallel Worlds have been a part of the Nasuverse since before Fate existed as a concept, my dude. Zelretch, the Kaleidoscope dude, is the user of the Second Magic: Kaleidoscope, the Operation of Parallel Worlds.

The Proper Human History is the concentration of parallel worlds that don't lead to dead ends or the destruction of humanity, but there isn't a single "prime" timeline. And basically everything in the Nasuverse exists within that concentration outside of Notes (because in Notes the planet that maintains Proper Human History is dead)

Arthur isn't on the Throne in the first place, he's the actual person traveling the multiverse iirc. We can summon him because the Fate system (Chaldea's summoning system) is utter bullshit and can basically create Servants out of whole cloth as long as it's been observed once. See also Saber Alter and Jeanne Alter, who originally didn't exist as separate entities on the Throne.
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