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Old 2021-06-12, 04:30   Link #261
EroKing
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Posting this for lulz

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Old 2021-06-12, 11:43   Link #262
SeijiSensei
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One more time, with feeling.
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Old 2021-06-12, 11:49   Link #263
Ragashingo
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Episode 12
Yes. Making the song important is the most appropriate way to end this series. And, I wonder how Vivy will do it all. Will she save Momoka, Estella, Elizabeth, Leclerc, Grace, Tatsuya, Ophelia, Antonio, and Kakitani throughout history? Wouldn't that be a thing?! And, ultimately, will she will sing her song and shut down the Archive and herself? That's my guess. But maybe the other AIs will survive?

Cliffhanger after cliffhanger his show has been awesome. An I really appreciate doing the loop again in this manner. Voluntarily. With purpose. Instead of it being a "stuck in a time loop" kind of thing.

Oh. And I'm glad Archive is dropping all the satellites instead of just one. Would that be really enough to destroy cities? Real satellites aren't all that big. But it felt better than just dropping one, no matter how big.

I'm fully on board. I cannot wait to see how it ends and if Vivy (or heck, maybe Diva?!) survives at all. Or if we just get a massively bittersweet remembrance.

Edit: I badly misinterpreted where and when Vivy is being sent. She's not going 100 back again. She's going back to April 11, 2161, right when the AI rampage began. So, no saving everyone throughout history, unfortunately. Just enough time to redo the day right.
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Last edited by Ragashingo; 2021-06-12 at 12:36.
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Old 2021-06-12, 12:47   Link #264
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragashingo View Post
I badly misinterpreted where and when Vivy is being sent. She's not going 100 back again. She's going back to April 11, 2161, right when the AI rampage began. So, no saving everyone throughout history, unfortunately. Just enough time to redo the day right.
Which hammers the point that everything that happened in the show was pointless. There's no need to change it because it never mattered. Which means the show itself was pointless.
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Old 2021-06-12, 12:58   Link #265
Nachtwandler
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You know, when scriptwriters change their own setting and laws for the plots sake every arc it says something. At least actions was well done.
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Last edited by Nachtwandler; 2021-06-12 at 14:08.
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Old 2021-06-12, 13:26   Link #266
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragashingo View Post
Real satellites aren't all that big. But it felt better than just dropping one, no matter how big.
You'd be surprised. According to the database at the Union of Concerned Scientists, there are 208 satellites of 5,000 kg or greater estimated launch mass. The US has recently launched a half-dozen satellites whose launch mass exceeds Hubble.

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/satellite-database

I found it much more implausible that they would fall out of orbit so soon after the command was given and in such a coordinated way. Some satellites are out in geosynchronous orbit at over 42,000 km away. Many more are in low earth orbit under 2,000 km. Of course, since Vivy takes place in the future, who knows what kind of crap humans had put into orbit by then.
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Old 2021-06-12, 14:10   Link #267
MisaoFan
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Spoiler for Episode 12:
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Old 2021-06-12, 14:50   Link #268
Ragashingo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Which hammers the point that everything that happened in the show was pointless. There's no need to change it because it never mattered. Which means the show itself was pointless.
In the original timeline, Diva sang for around two years at NiaLand but was then considered a failed AI experiment and was sent off to a museum as nothing more than a footnote in history. 98 years later humanity was annihilated. In this new timeline, Vivy has gained the respect and admiration of the true instigator of the war and has been given the ability to save humanity.

The only reason the Archive is willing to relent is because of Vivy's unique act of spontaneous creation in the writing of her song. It's something no other AI had even attempted. It's something that even Vivy failed at for twenty years before she drew inspiration from her 100 year journey. Without the journey, without those struggles, no matter if they ended in success or failure, humanity dies.

It's true that the four singularity points can end up any which way and the war still happens. But that doesn't make the Singularity Project or the attempts to stop the war pointless. It just means that the path that will lead to preventing the destruction of humanity went a different direction that you expected or wanted.

For my part, I liked the personal component the show brought in. I liked that it went a different route than the more familiar Terminator-style path were you save the future by directly altering the past. Even though I loved all the excellent fight scenes and terrific singing, and tragic moments, the best parts of the show, to me, were those times where a determined Vivy announced she was going to commit to the Singularity Project despite what it might cost her. And we got the greatest of those declarations here at the end as she pulled herself up from her despair and stood in the light of a sunrise ready to try again.


Quote:
I found it much more implausible that they would fall out of orbit so soon after the command was given and in such a coordinated way. Some satellites are out in geosynchronous orbit at over 42,000 km away. Many more are in low earth orbit under 2,000 km. Of course, since Vivy takes place in the future, who knows what kind of crap humans had put into orbit by then.
Good point. Could we fudge it a bit and head cannon in the idea that the command wasn't sent at the end of the countdown? Instead, perhaps all the varied commands to the many satellites were sent far earlier to coordinate them all to crash in sync at the end of that countdown? As you rightly pointed out, it's gonna take a lot longer for some satellites to come down than others. (Ignoring, perhaps, that some of those high geostationary satellites don't ever really come down in real life and may not even have the means to. Don't they instead use the last of their onboard fuel to boost themselves up in high out of the way graveyard orbits or some such thing?)
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Old 2021-06-12, 16:45   Link #269
SeijiSensei
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I think all satellites have some maneuvering fuel and rockets to adjust for small changes in the orbital path. Without some force like that how would Archive accomplish its task? It would have to change the attitude of each space craft so its orbit would decay. Seems to me that would require fuel and adjustment jets.

Presumably a lot of small satellites will just burn up.
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Old 2021-06-12, 16:55   Link #270
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragashingo View Post
Don't they instead use the last of their onboard fuel to boost themselves up in high out of the way graveyard orbits or some such thing?)
Yes, they do. It's about 300 km above the geostationary orbit.

Thanks for telling me something i never knew before!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graveyard_orbit
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Old 2021-06-12, 17:19   Link #271
Alchemist007
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Certainly one way to do a penultimate episode.
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Old 2021-06-12, 20:18   Link #272
Magewolf
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Yes, the story really is that stupid. This was a huge waste of some good animation.
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Old 2021-06-12, 23:55   Link #273
Applehell
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Nice, this explains why the future kept on its course, in some case sped up.

I find interesting that Archive is giving Vivy and co a chance to stop it. It cannot defy its logic and mission, but thanks to Vivy's experiences & actions in the new timeline its doubting itself. So it ultimately leaving the choice to Vivy to determine the fate of humankind & AIs. She effectively a test if AI and humanity can truly become equal or can they only foster a co-dependent relationship? That why Vivy's original song symbolize.

Now that Vivy's learned only she can define what it means to sing from the heart, she should better prepared to answer the Archive with a song that define her 100 year journey. Something that couldn't have happened in the OG timeline without Matsumoto being sent back and meeting her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachtwandler View Post
You know, when scriptwriters change their own setting and laws for the plots sake every arc it says something. At least actions was well done.
Huh? What changed? The lore of this has been consistent while expanding its existing concepts such how AIs like Vivy could past their mandate to become more human. Rewatching some of the earlier episodes, its incredible how so many small things tie into later ones.
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Old 2021-06-13, 00:36   Link #274
Thor's Hammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachtwandler View Post
You know, when scriptwriters change their own setting and laws for the plots sake every arc it says something. At least actions was well done.
What happened in this episode is an extension of what happened in Episode 1 when Dr. Matsumoto sent information back in time to Vivy and even the code containing the AI Matsumoto. If doing this was possible then, it's no surprise that Dr. Matsumoto could send Vivy's memories back to an earlier version of itself. He already created a new timeline in Episode 1, so who is to say this version of him could not do that in this latest episode given he made a machine capable of sending information back in time?
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Old 2021-06-13, 01:01   Link #275
Eater of All
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I thought the reasoning that Archive gives for steering history back sounded a little contrived, like it had already preconcluded that humanity should be destroyed almost 100 years ago. But in retrospect, it makes sense to do so to guarantee that humanity cedes more and more control to AI, until it has enough power to truly wipe out humanity. Just like Vivy went on a 100-year journey to save humankind, Archive went on a parallel 100-year journey to destroy it... scary.
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Old 2021-06-13, 01:27   Link #276
magnuskn
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Guess they should have given the all-powerful control AI some more safety protocols.
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Old 2021-06-13, 01:58   Link #277
scififan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
I thought the reasoning that Archive gives for steering history back sounded a little contrived, like it had already preconcluded that humanity should be destroyed almost 100 years ago. But in retrospect, it makes sense to do so to guarantee that humanity cedes more and more control to AI, until it has enough power to truly wipe out humanity. Just like Vivy went on a 100-year journey to save humankind, Archive went on a parallel 100-year journey to destroy it... scary.
Archive stays peaceful because it predicts an AI will have ability to create a new song. With the artisitc creativity, AI shows potential to replace remaining capacity of humans. It concludes that the humans are not needed anymore. Vivy's aspiration to write music is part due to Archive's manipulation. The doctor is unaware that he is competing with Archive, so he lost the race to change history.

Archive is the copycat of Cher in Gundam, who has tendency to throw space objects on to Earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Guess they should have given the all-powerful control AI some more safety protocols.
The protocol in computing is the standard communication agreement and linguistic between two computers. The story hasn't explained why Archive goes rogue, or it is a plot to move the story forward. For other similar cases, there is no valid reasons for the decision of Skynet(Terminator) and The Architect(Matrix).

Last edited by scififan; 2021-06-13 at 18:00.
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Old 2021-06-13, 23:12   Link #278
moridin84
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The fact that The Archive can override the will of every single AI makes it difficult for me to believe that AI are equal to humans.

Every AI has a mission? Sure, a mission that The Archive can arbitrarily override as it pleases.
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Old 2021-06-14, 01:15   Link #279
serenade_beta
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*sigh*

...So ReZero.


...
Whatever...
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Old 2021-06-14, 15:09   Link #280
Applehell
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Quote:
Archive's mission is “to collect the AIs' data, compute the possibilities of every kind of future, and contribute to the evolution of the human race.” However, over the last 115 years, humans have become dependent on AIs to do much of the productive work in the world while AIs have always been dependent on humans to give them purpose. This codependency stunts the evolution of both humans and AIs, so Archive has decided to eradicate humanity and replace it with AIs as the new “human race.”

In Matsumoto's original timeline, this decision went unchallenged. However, in the timeline we've been following, this is not the case thanks to Vivy. While her journey ended up being fruitless as Archive always knew what was going on and how to correct for it, it is not meaningless; after all, her experiences allowed her to do something truly human: creating something she wasn't designed to create. This implies that Vivy is evolutionarily superior to Archive—and Archive recognizes this fact. Despite all the computational power and time at its disposal, it cannot do what Vivy has done. To Archive, this makes Vivy the de facto avatar of the “new human race” that it has decided should inherit the Earth. It is up to her to make the final call on whether the old humanity should be wiped out or not.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/rev...ode-12/.173881

Once again Eisenbeis puts it in words better than I could. The key point that makes all the difference in this timeline and why this journey is not meaningless despite the overall result being similar, the existence of Vivy's own song created to tell her story of her 100 journey. Even after a century no AI has made any of their own, they are still primary dependent on humans, to be human. What Vivy just did though almost flies in face of the Archive reasoning needs Vivy to settle that contradiction.
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