Bakemonogatari - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

Agree...

It doesn't have the stench of typical, overly convoluted, profit driven, immature romantic cliffhanger, Anime/Manga angst.

Very well-said.

I wonder if a lot of authors/mangaka are afraid to let their main characters get involved properly in healthy or developing relationships early in plot because they do not know how to write the development into their story. And still keep the audience coming back for more ?

Two things...

1) Shipping wars are good for business. It creates added discussion (Soap Opera-esque discussions, but discussions nonetheless) which creates added internet/"water cooler" buzz which is like free added advertisement. Once a couple is firmly established, shipping wars tend to go out the window.

2) I think that most authors/mangaka find it easier to write the melodramatic Soap Opera-esque unsettled love conflicts than established romance. Established romance isn't easy to write; you have to write what I call "casual love" - yes, Character A really does love Character B but they're in a stable relationship so it doesn't make sense for them to be waxing poetic about their feelings for one another all the time and/or for them to be in any way awkward in each other's company. Casual love isn't easy to get across in a compelling way... but this anime does it.


For example, that one scene at Hitagi's house where she and Araragi are chatting in episode 6... that really felt so right and natural to me. This really is how an established romantic couple act around one another; in love but relaxed. At ease. Speaking of their relationship in an open, but casual
matter-of-fact sort of way. However... you still have slight teasing and joking there to keep things vibrant and show how the two characters know how to have fun with one another.

Really well-done romance, imo, especially for two characters like these two.

What would Toradora be like if Tiaiga and Ryuji started dating from early in the story ?

Could the author pull it off and still make a hit ?

Good question. I have my doubts...

What about Haruhi and Kyon ?

Could the author pull it off ?

Kyon trying to keep his universally powerful crazy girl friend under control... without her knowing she has the power of Unicron.

Well, Kyon could also consult Optimus Prime for help then, he he...

I actually could see Kyon and Haruhi working like this... but the author (thus far) chooses not to try it.

[rocket]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1) Shipping wars are good for business. It creates added discussion (Soap Opera-esque discussions, but discussions nonetheless) which creates added internet/"water cooler" buzz which is like free added advertisement. Once a couple is firmly established, shipping wars tend to go out the window.

Too true!

Also, no matter how melodramatic, there is a wellspring of free dramatic tension to use in a story if you have two characters not quite yet involved. It's hard to turn that down, especially if that's the spark that takes your otherwise merely good story and makes it great. You'll notice most live action dramas suffer from the same 'perpetual almost dating' phenomenon.

If you're looking for it, two good (pure shojo romance) stories that actually get the couples together early and deal with the difficulties of being in a relationship are Lovely Complex, and Bokura ga Ita...

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by rocket

Too true!

Also, no matter how melodramatic, there is a wellspring of free dramatic tension to use in a story if you have two characters not quite yet involved. It's hard to turn that down, especially if that's the spark that takes your otherwise merely good story and makes it great. You'll notice most live action dramas suffer from the same 'perpetual almost dating' phenomenon.

If you're looking for it, two good (pure shojo romance) stories that actually get the couples together early and deal with the difficulties of being in a relationship are Lovely Complex, and Bokura ga Ita...

The authors are just trying to pay the bills.

I feel they rarely have good stories that they have finely crafted over time that instantly draw the publishers minds.

It is not easy to write powerful proper stories without the cheap formulaic melodrama.

Check out most of the Asian live action dramas. One of the most common "tropes"...

Exhibit A The Sick/Blind/Crippled/Lukemia/Kidney/Dying/Dead but incredibly lively beautiful girlfriend.

Senjougahara mentioned this plot device as well as Hanekawa, who described it as disgusting and I agree.

It as if healthy girls are passe. The sick, frail, weak body but but beautiful and ironically full of life women are hip.

That is just wrong.

Niso mocks this "trope" so often in Bakemongatari and I love it.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by rocket

Too true!

Also, no matter how melodramatic, there is a wellspring of free dramatic tension to use in a story if you have two characters not quite yet involved. It's hard to turn that down, especially if that's the spark that takes your otherwise merely good story and makes it great. You'll notice most live action dramas suffer from the same 'perpetual almost dating' phenomenon.

If you're looking for it, two good (pure shojo romance) stories that actually get the couples together early and deal with the difficulties of being in a relationship are Lovely Complex, and Bokura ga Ita...

Aye... this manages to collect what those two were able to do and then go where SHnY and many other series don't. Spice&Wolf comes close in all but name (since there's been no explicit mutual confirmation but there we have some unresolved matters that make it unwise so far).

[guanin]

Wow. That was definitely one of, if not, the best anime confession I have ever seen. Zettai chigau, absolutely different from the others.

But I don`t quite get that last line of Araragi. What does he mean by "Hitagi Fascination"? When that came up, I was like "huh?"

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by guanin

Wow. That was definitely one of, if not, the best anime confession I have ever seen. Zettai chigau, absolutely different from the others.

But I don`t quite get that last line of Araragi. What does he mean by "Hitagi Fascination"? When that came up, I was like "huh?"

It was that term Hitagi mentioned at the start of the arc, "tore" (蕩れ) which she said should be a replacement for "moe."

[guanin]

Is that a word from Kansai dialect or what? I can't find the meaning in any dictionary. And by start of the arc you meant episode 3 right?

edit: I get it now, 蕩れ is just part of the supposed kanji or word for fascination, but still I cant find 蕩れ in the dictionary. There's とろ but no 蕩れ. I wonder why it's not in the dictionary....

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by guanin

Is that a word from Kansai dialect or what? I can't find the meaning in any dictionary. And by start of the arc you meant episode 3 right?

It comes from 見蕩れる and yeah, it was in ep 3, right after Senjougahara's entrance.

[topboy]

9.8/10 Comedy,Drama,Mystery

All cool

[Lost-Wisdom]

Excellent and a refreshing series to watch.

[risingstar3110]

First have to mention the hilarious fight over "first touch", and Araragi's attempts to bride but was failed (it's a bad moment also). Almost got eaten there

Then.....what's a plot twist....... and it make a lots of sense when think about it (random screens were not so random now)........ They made it real when Senjougahara pointed in the opposite direction because she obviously can't see Moyoi

The confession screen was unexpected (and quite great) , and i like Mayoi's congratulation right after that (omedeto gozaimasu xD) . This series made a nice turn of event (the "stapler" found love.... officially......D: )

No.... but really all of the previous hilarious, cute and romantic moments were shadowed by that emotional screen when Mayoi returned home. Maybe i am too sensitive but my eyes were in tears back then. It's a bittersweet feeling

[destiny4everlove]

Episode 5

- Araragi is such a pervert, even if he denies it, he really is one.

-ROFL! After touching a girl’s chest what should you say Araragi? “Arigato?”, he is helpless indeed!

-Mayoi’s parents situation was so sad. I really felt for Mayoi.

-Ahhh, Senjo is starting to get jealous of Hawakara…

-Mayoi is the snail and Araragi is the one that needs to separate from the oddity!!

-I had a feeling Mayoi was a ghost, but I pushed that thought away since I thought I was wrong but it seems I was right after all.

-So Mayoi is a wandering spirit that can’t leave this world because she couldn’t see her mom, because she could not complete her task.

-So the reason why Hawakara also saw Mayoi is because she didn’t want to return home too, and it’s also the reason why she was wandering on Mother’s day, she must have problems at home too.

-Senjo confessed to Araragi!!! Wow this took me by total surprise!! Wow!! Not that she loved him, but that she confessed to him!

-The scene of Mayoi finally crossing over was so touching!!

-Senjo sure is direct! She confronted Araragi about her confession and asked for answer out of him as soon as Mayoi was gone.

-So Araragi accepted Senjo’s confession and now they are a couple...mmm... I do like Araragi x Senjo, but I was expecting a bit more out of the love triangle that appeared to be developing in the last episode. And yes, I also like Araragi x Hawakara.

-I do feel kind of sad for Hawakara now that Araragi x Senjo is official because I think she does have something some feelings for Araragi.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Really just did not end up liking this arc at all...I don't think it did a single thing for me. The banter was uninteresting whereas at least in the 1st arc it was decent and highly amusing, Mayoi was incredibly annoying, unfunny and contributed nothing to the story that I could see besides giving Senjougahara and Araragi the opportunity to spend some more time together and build their romance (seriously she said his name wrong just doesn't make for an interesting 2.5 episode long discussion to me), the camera angle just would not stop changing every couple of seconds and it really started to get distracting towards the end of the third episode and plagued my attempt to watch the arc all throughout and I just feel like I wasted my time watching episodes 3-5 since I got very little in the way of entertainment throughout, again unlike episodes 1-2 which were drop dead hilarious though most at the expense of Senjougahara's ridiculous character portrayal which only returned towards the end of episode 05.

Next arc really just has to be better on both the dialogue and the direction front or I will have to fully divest myself of the monogatari series as directed by Akiyuki Shinbo.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Mayoi was incredibly annoying, unfunny and contributed nothing to the story

Whether or not you like Hachikuji and everything Bakemonogatari is your taste, but there is a misconception here. Bakemonogatari has no overarching plot. It's a collection of five stories, each about a particular girl Araragi meets. Hachikuji doesn't need to contribute anything to the story, she is the story in this arc.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Whether or not you like Hachikuji and everything Bakemonogatari is your taste, but there is a misconception here. Bakemonogatari has no overarching plot. It's a collection of five stories, each about a particular girl Araragi meets. Hachikuji doesn't need to contribute anything to the story, she is the story in this arc.

This is probably a good thing since it means very little of this arc and character will carry into the next one. Just really hoping the next one does more for me cause honestly I could easily have done with skipping this in retrospect.

[Archon_Wing]

The biggest point of this episode was to help Hitagi and Aragi reach a mutual understanding of sorts. So yes, snail loli was kind of a device. Essentially, she sees that Aragi is a very helpful person, and wouldn't just come to help her. So in a way, she felt kinda worse because it turned out that he saved her in episode 1 because he was just like that as a person and not just specifically just for her.

But such a person, given Hitagi's cynical and distrusting nature, proved to be intriguing, and allowed her to perceive him as something else... perhaps as another person. I guess this is something that I could relate to, where you might think "Why is this person doing these good things?"

So here you see her making very subtle and mild concessions of some kind. Unfortunately, it might not last long. But this is just the way of someone who doesn't want to express an actual concession... gotta pretend to be tough and all.

Personally, I felt that wandering loli was wandering because she was already dead seem to do the part. It really explains her behavior if you think about it. She acts like that to people because she ultimately wants to stir up more trouble and go home... because she really can't go home.

Although the direction leaves much to be desired, I actually found this episode likable to an extent.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

The biggest point of this episode was to help Hitagi and Aragi reach a mutual understanding of sorts. So yes, snail loli was kind of a device. Essentially, she sees that Aragi is a very helpful person, and wouldn't just come to help her. So in a way, she felt kinda worse because it turned out that he saved her in episode 1 because he was just like that as a person and not just specifically just for her.

But such a person, given Hitagi's cynical and distrusting nature, proved to be intriguing, and allowed her to perceive him as something else... perhaps as another person. I guess this is something that I could relate to, where you might think "Why is this person doing these good things?"

So here you see her making very subtle and mild concessions of some kind. Unfortunately, it might not last long. But this is just the way of someone who doesn't want to express an actual concession... gotta pretend to be tough and all.

Personally, I felt that wandering loli was wandering because she was already dead seem to do the part. It really explains her behavior if you think about it. She acts like that to people because she ultimately wants to stir up more trouble and go home... because she really can't go home.

Although the direction leaves much to be desired, I actually found this episode likable to an extent.

At least, you are capable of watching this show properly. Props to you.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

At least, you are capable of watching this show properly. Props to you.

You heard it here first folks, there's apparently both a right and a wrong way to watch this show, but I'm choosing the hidden third option and putting it back on the back burner for now until I can figure out what it's supposed to be.

[zarqu]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I'm choosing the hidden third option and putting it back on the back burner for now until I can figure out what it's supposed to be.

A collection of sometimes funny dialogue, interesting characters (YMMV), god tier seiyuu, various shinboisms and just general shaftiness?

With it not having an overarching plot, I'd wager it's something like that.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by zarqu

A collection of sometimes funny dialogue, interesting characters (YMMV), god tier seiyuu, various shinboisms and just general shaftiness?

With it not having an overarching plot, I'd wager it's something like that.

Well the dialogue can be funny at times in it's absurdity, but other times it just feels like they came up with random topics to discuss to pass time and still others the dialogue can just be downright painful for me (like hearing Mayoi and Araragi drone on about how she put an extra syllable in his name or Monkey drone on about how perfect Senjougahara is), the characters...so far I'm okay with Araragi, okay with Meme, try to tolerate Senjougahara (though I really don't find her random fits of violence all that amusing the same way I don't find most abusive females in harems shows all that amusing), didn't care for Mayoi much at all and was okay with Monkey (still can't remember her actual name) up until she revealed that she was just some lesbian tomboy archetype character that worships Senjougahara. Whatever the deal is with NisiOisin and these black hole sue characters that are just so "perfect" and should be idolized according to the other cast members I don't know, but it's something that rubs me the wrong way for sure and not something I buy into for a second. It's like this for me, if the character is well-written and interesting I'll appreciate them, but if they just come across as products to be ogled and idolized then I'm probably going to be largely indifferent to them.

The seiyuu do their best, but the script often leads to a lot of droning monotonous dialogue spoken almost rhythmically and thus I can't say the show makes as good a use of it's voice talent is it could and even then these aren't exactly my absolute most revered seiyuu anyway though I still like and am familiar with most of them so that's not the issue. The Shinboisms are distracting at best, downright intrusive at worst I find and I hold no particular feelings towards Shaft either way, though I don't consider their presence an issue.

All of this kind of leads me with very middling feelings at best towards the show and it's cast, though maybe that's because I really prefer shows to have some form of overarching plot or character arc to tie things together. The closest we've had to a clear cut character arc so far are the first two episodes I would say, and although Mayoi and Monkey have stuck around for a while in their various arcs they failed to leave much of an impression and Senjougahara still played a large part in both. So yeah just really struggling to find much in the way of appeal here. This type of show must just really not be for me.