AnimeSuki Forums

Jan-Poo · 2012-01-05, 10:41

only a few bits

immblueversion · 2012-01-05, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

only a few bits

Care to reveal any? Or at least PM them...

Jan-Poo · 2012-01-06, 08:15

I only know what is written in the summary LyricalAura posted in the spoiler thread.

You can read it here:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=26755

Naturally since it's the spoiler thread, there are spoilers in it.

Guernsey · 2012-01-07, 12:23

What parts in the the first few epsiodes did the anime skip? How did Maria came into contact with Beatrice anyway if she didn't appear yunti the final part of the fifth epsode?

phmn · 2012-01-07, 14:38

Hello, I am new here and I have a few questions!

Spoiler for fictional tales and red truth:

I haven't done enough research about the mysteries yet (meaning that I am not aware by many things that are understood by the community), however there is something that keeps puzzling me. I have heard that the first two episodes are fictional (created by yasu) or something but isn't the same with all the games we have seen?

The question here is, what do we mean that what we have seen in a game is fictional. Is it a fictional story that uses the Rokkenjima setting and the same characters with the "actual mystery"? Because that way trying to figure out what happened in that story is useless if our goal is to understand what "actually" happened. And I am saying "actually" because even this can be interpreted by various ways. But let's make the assumption that the real world is the world that Ange lives in in 1994. If that is the case, then we can assume that there is a real story that actually happened. Well assuming that the point of solving the games is to figure out what happened in the real world, then if these games are entirely fictional, aren't they useless? Because we can have a game that is perfect fantasy, with magic and all right?

I believe that although these stories are fictional, they should have some limitations. One thing I keep thinking about is Eva. In the first two games for instance we see in the witch's game record that she dies. Unless we make the assumption that even this game record is not necessarily true, this is an important contradiction with what we know about the world of 1994 (which I assume for the time being to be the "true world"). It is one thing to make tricks about how some things have happened during the incident and it is another thing to deny things that we know they can't be true. This violates the whole catbox thing. Because it tells as that even something outside the catbox can be subjective. Of course surely someone could say, the first two games are entirely fictional and they don't have to correspond to what happened. But if this is the case, there is no point in trying to "learn the truth" by analyzing them. Unless of course if we just consider them as independent games and let's say you try to solve those games independently, or to put it another way, try to interpret those games as mystery.

And the above lead to another question. Is the red truth the truth about what happened in a game or does it refer to what happened in the real world? Because if it's the first case (which I think most likely is) then what is true to one game doesn't guarantee what actually happened. (Unless of course we just care about what happened in that game). The reason I am asking that is because trying to explain past episodes with information we attained from newer ones might be a bit pointless. For instance there is no red truth about the first game that Kinzo is dead, therefore we don't have to assume about that game that he is dead. Like I said before, we can interpret it as fantasy. And in the end of the day, we can only conclude that we do not have actual information about what happened (which might be an explanation) just stories that have the purpose to just gives us ideas. In other words, we can't have access to what actually happened, we can only imagine.

I know that this might have gone a bit far for a question thread, so if the mods believe it is more fitting to be in a discussion thread, please move it there!

AuraTwilight · 2012-01-08, 05:18

Bear in mind Maria visits the island a lot more than Battler. She's met Beatrice on previous years.

Guernsey · 2012-01-08, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Bear in mind Maria visits the island a lot more than Battler. She's met Beatrice on previous years.

Is that why she knows a lot about Beatrice? I see that explains a lot.

LyricalAura · 2012-01-08, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by phmn

Hello, I am new here and I have a few questions!

Spoiler for fictional tales and red truth:

I haven't done enough research about the mysteries yet (meaning that I am not aware by many things that are understood by the community), however there is something that keeps puzzling me. I have heard that the first two episodes are fictional (created by yasu) or something but isn't the same with all the games we have seen?

The question here is, what do we mean that what we have seen in a game is fictional. Is it a fictional story that uses the Rokkenjima setting and the same characters with the "actual mystery"? Because that way trying to figure out what happened in that story is useless if our goal is to understand what "actually" happened. And I am saying "actually" because even this can be interpreted by various ways. But let's make the assumption that the real world is the world that Ange lives in in 1994. If that is the case, then we can assume that there is a real story that actually happened. Well assuming that the point of solving the games is to figure out what happened in the real world, then if these games are entirely fictional, aren't they useless? Because we can have a game that is perfect fantasy, with magic and all right?

I believe that although these stories are fictional, they should have some limitations. One thing I keep thinking about is Eva. In the first two games for instance we see in the witch's game record that she dies. Unless we make the assumption that even this game record is not necessarily true, this is an important contradiction with what we know about the world of 1994 (which I assume for the time being to be the "true world"). It is one thing to make tricks about how some things have happened during the incident and it is another thing to deny things that we know they can't be true. This violates the whole catbox thing. Because it tells as that even something outside the catbox can be subjective. Of course surely someone could say, the first two games are entirely fictional and they don't have to correspond to what happened. But if this is the case, there is no point in trying to "learn the truth" by analyzing them. Unless of course if we just consider them as independent games and let's say you try to solve those games independently, or to put it another way, try to interpret those games as mystery.

And the above lead to another question. Is the red truth the truth about what happened in a game or does it refer to what happened in the real world? Because if it's the first case (which I think most likely is) then what is true to one game doesn't guarantee what actually happened. (Unless of course we just care about what happened in that game). The reason I am asking that is because trying to explain past episodes with information we attained from newer ones might be a bit pointless. For instance there is no red truth about the first game that Kinzo is dead, therefore we don't have to assume about that game that he is dead. Like I said before, we can interpret it as fantasy. And in the end of the day, we can only conclude that we do not have actual information about what happened (which might be an explanation) just stories that have the purpose to just gives us ideas. In other words, we can't have access to what actually happened, we can only imagine.

I know that this might have gone a bit far for a question thread, so if the mods believe it is more fitting to be in a discussion thread, please move it there!

You seem to be at around an EP4 state of knowledge except for a couple spoilers, so I'll try to stay at that level.

Spoiler for EP4ish:

It's true that it may be impossible to uncover the true sequence of events in the cat box by looking at fictional stories. However, by studying stories, you can still learn something important about their author. According to EP4, EP1-2 were written by someone who lived on the island and was apparently deeply intertwined with the incident, so if you can understand what that person was thinking and why they wrote those two stories, it may be possible to uncover the conditions that led to the real incident and what general form it might have taken.

Also, all of the games are being presented by Meta-Beatrice, who wants Battler to extract some kind of meaning from them. So at the very least, even if the sequences of events are totally different and have nothing to do with reality, there should still be core elements relating to the message that are shared by all of the games. If they're all fictional, then yes, in principle it would be possible to show Battler a proper fantasy with magic flying around... and yet, Beato hasn't done that, even though she started out saying she'd make Battler accept magic. She's continued playing with these semi-mystery setups instead. Why is that?

Your thought process about red truth is valid. In fact, Battler raised your objection about Kinzo in EP4, pointing out that the number of master keys did actually change between EP1 and EP2, although Beato shot him down in that instance by saying that Kinzo's life or death status is the same for all games. It seems to be up to the whim of the author whether truths apply to multiple games or not. So basically, although there are things that carry over, you have to decide on a case-by-case basis which things they are. For instance, you could argue that Kinzo was originally intended to be alive by the author of EP1 and it was revised later by EP4, since the red truth of his death wasn't created until then, but Kinzo's death gives so much explanatory power for people's actions in EP1 that the argument should probably be rejected.

Regardless, I think it's important to consider the source of red truth. Since it represents 100% certainty about a statement, it would be quite easy for an author to assert things about a fictional world that they created. But in the real world, it would be nearly impossible for a mere human to become truly 100% certain about anything. So if red truth about the real incident existed, where would it come from?

EP5-6 address a lot of the same issues you asked about, so I think you'll find them pretty instructive.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-01-21, 16:28

This is more of a VN question, but it's EP 1. I'll put a spoiler on it because I know it was never mentioned in the anime

Spoiler for Legend:

Jan-Poo · 2012-01-21, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

This is more of a VN question, but it's EP 1. I'll put a spoiler on it because I know it was never mentioned in the anime

Spoiler for Legend:

It's the 8th chapter, "Legend of the gold", in the middle of the scene where George and Shannon meet at the arbor.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-01-21, 16:56

Thank you so much! I thought it was earlier than that, near the time the cousins were attempting the epitaph, which would explain why I wasn't able to find it.

Is that the same time it's said that it may have something to do with having the thirteen sacrifices? Or is that just something I'm making up?

Jan-Poo · 2012-01-21, 17:02

I don't think so. As far as I remember they discuss about the epitaph much earlier and then completely forget about it until the time they finally open their eyes and notice that the murders are following it when they are in Kinzo study.

Guernsey · 2012-02-07, 14:14

Are there two Bernkastels?

Jan-Poo · 2012-02-07, 14:34

In Umineko? No, not to my knowledge. Unless you consider "another bernkastel" something that share the same name, like for example a bottle of wine or a certain german town.

zibbazabba905 · 2012-02-12, 03:34

has anyone tried doing a murder mystery styled pen and paper game? currently in a dnd game and was trying to think of how one could work, but I keep coming up with different problems

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-02-19, 15:53

I don't know what you mean. Do you mean like playing a DnDtype rpg but with a detective/mystery genre instead of a typical fantasy adventure?

zibbazabba905 · 2012-02-21, 07:05

Yeah, I was thinking something like everyone gets someone else's name as a target, and they have to take that person out. Once someone gets taken out everyone tries to get the person they target convicted of doing it. The one who gets killed gets to come in new as the detective with some kinda detective powers. Play would continue until people run out of offense or defense, and then they're out, or it...

Jan-Poo · 2012-02-21, 08:09

I don't know much about detective RPGs and they aren't very common, but you can check the "gumshoe system". here's the official page:

http://www.pelgranepress.com/gumshoe/

I suggest you try to get more info about it before buying the products to see if it's really what you're looking for.

RandomAvatarFan · 2012-02-21, 15:09

Games like "Mafia" are similar. When my friends play DnD, we just kind of talk everything through, and don't even use our character sheets like 99.99% of the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game) for some basic information

for some basic rules: http://toast.topped-with-meat.com/connector/mafia.html

If the above link seems confusing, there are other sites. It didn't seem that confusing to me IMO.

You can also check out the forum version, perhaps even here on AS.

You don't need much for it either, except a larger group. My group is usually only 3-4 players, and the second link suggests at least nine.

rogerpepitone · 2012-02-21, 22:36

Check out http://mafiascum.net/

There's a forum where they play games, and a wiki where they list many common roles and setups.

2012-01-05, 10:41	Link #1221
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	only a few bits __________________

2012-01-06, 08:15	Link #1223
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I only know what is written in the summary LyricalAura posted in the spoiler thread. You can read it here: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=26755 Naturally since it's the spoiler thread, there are spoilers in it. __________________

2012-01-07, 12:23	Link #1224
Guernsey The GAP Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	What parts in the the first few epsiodes did the anime skip? How did Maria came into contact with Beatrice anyway if she didn't appear yunti the final part of the fifth epsode? __________________

2012-01-08, 05:18	Link #1226
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	Bear in mind Maria visits the island a lot more than Battler. She's met Beatrice on previous years. __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2012-01-21, 16:28	Link #1229
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	This is more of a VN question, but it's EP 1. I'll put a spoiler on it because I know it was never mentioned in the anime Spoiler for Legend: \| What chapter did they mention the orphanage in? I know I read it the first time but since trying to skim it to find it again, I haven't been able to find it again.

2012-01-07, 14:38	Link #1225
phmn Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Age: 37	Hello, I am new here and I have a few questions! Spoiler for fictional tales and red truth: I haven't done enough research about the mysteries yet (meaning that I am not aware by many things that are understood by the community), however there is something that keeps puzzling me. I have heard that the first two episodes are fictional (created by yasu) or something but isn't the same with all the games we have seen? The question here is, what do we mean that what we have seen in a game is fictional. Is it a fictional story that uses the Rokkenjima setting and the same characters with the "actual mystery"? Because that way trying to figure out what happened in that story is useless if our goal is to understand what "actually" happened. And I am saying "actually" because even this can be interpreted by various ways. But let's make the assumption that the real world is the world that Ange lives in in 1994. If that is the case, then we can assume that there is a real story that actually happened. Well assuming that the point of solving the games is to figure out what happened in the real world, then if these games are entirely fictional, aren't they useless? Because we can have a game that is perfect fantasy, with magic and all right? I believe that although these stories are fictional, they should have some limitations. One thing I keep thinking about is Eva. In the first two games for instance we see in the witch's game record that she dies. Unless we make the assumption that even this game record is not necessarily true, this is an important contradiction with what we know about the world of 1994 (which I assume for the time being to be the "true world"). It is one thing to make tricks about how some things have happened during the incident and it is another thing to deny things that we know they can't be true. This violates the whole catbox thing. Because it tells as that even something outside the catbox can be subjective. Of course surely someone could say, the first two games are entirely fictional and they don't have to correspond to what happened. But if this is the case, there is no point in trying to "learn the truth" by analyzing them. Unless of course if we just consider them as independent games and let's say you try to solve those games independently, or to put it another way, try to interpret those games as mystery. And the above lead to another question. Is the red truth the truth about what happened in a game or does it refer to what happened in the real world? Because if it's the first case (which I think most likely is) then what is true to one game doesn't guarantee what actually happened. (Unless of course we just care about what happened in that game). The reason I am asking that is because trying to explain past episodes with information we attained from newer ones might be a bit pointless. For instance there is no red truth about the first game that Kinzo is dead, therefore we don't have to assume about that game that he is dead. Like I said before, we can interpret it as fantasy. And in the end of the day, we can only conclude that we do not have actual information about what happened (which might be an explanation) just stories that have the purpose to just gives us ideas. In other words, we can't have access to what actually happened, we can only imagine. I know that this might have gone a bit far for a question thread, so if the mods believe it is more fitting to be in a discussion thread, please move it there!

2012-01-21, 16:56	Link #1231
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	Thank you so much! I thought it was earlier than that, near the time the cousins were attempting the epitaph, which would explain why I wasn't able to find it. Is that the same time it's said that it may have something to do with having the thirteen sacrifices? Or is that just something I'm making up?

2012-01-21, 17:02	Link #1232
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I don't think so. As far as I remember they discuss about the epitaph much earlier and then completely forget about it until the time they finally open their eyes and notice that the murders are following it when they are in Kinzo study. __________________

2012-02-07, 14:14	Link #1233
Guernsey The GAP Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 36	Are there two Bernkastels? __________________

2012-02-07, 14:34	Link #1234
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	In Umineko? No, not to my knowledge. Unless you consider "another bernkastel" something that share the same name, like for example a bottle of wine or a certain german town. __________________

2012-02-12, 03:34	Link #1235
zibbazabba905 twuth it EASY. Join Date: Jun 2010	has anyone tried doing a murder mystery styled pen and paper game? currently in a dnd game and was trying to think of how one could work, but I keep coming up with different problems

2012-02-19, 15:53	Link #1236
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	I don't know what you mean. Do you mean like playing a DnDtype rpg but with a detective/mystery genre instead of a typical fantasy adventure? __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen.

2012-02-21, 07:05	Link #1237
zibbazabba905 twuth it EASY. Join Date: Jun 2010	Yeah, I was thinking something like everyone gets someone else's name as a target, and they have to take that person out. Once someone gets taken out everyone tries to get the person they target convicted of doing it. The one who gets killed gets to come in new as the detective with some kinda detective powers. Play would continue until people run out of offense or defense, and then they're out, or it...

2012-02-21, 08:09	Link #1238
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I don't know much about detective RPGs and they aren't very common, but you can check the "gumshoe system". here's the official page: http://www.pelgranepress.com/gumshoe/ I suggest you try to get more info about it before buying the products to see if it's really what you're looking for. __________________

2012-02-21, 15:09	Link #1239
RandomAvatarFan Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011	Games like "Mafia" are similar. When my friends play DnD, we just kind of talk everything through, and don't even use our character sheets like 99.99% of the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(party_game) for some basic information for some basic rules: http://toast.topped-with-meat.com/connector/mafia.html If the above link seems confusing, there are other sites. It didn't seem that confusing to me IMO. You can also check out the forum version, perhaps even here on AS. You don't need much for it either, except a larger group. My group is usually only 3-4 players, and the second link suggests at least nine. __________________ Without love this picture cannot be seen.

2012-02-21, 22:36	Link #1240
rogerpepitone Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008	Check out http://mafiascum.net/ There's a forum where they play games, and a wiki where they list many common roles and setups. __________________ Umineko notes: Various (1-4) Ep 3 (w/ red text) Ep 4 (w/ red text) . My projects: Higurashi Daybreak - in need of translator Higurashi DS Translation - in need of translator Never7: The End of Infinity - Finished! I/O: In progress 12Riven: In progress