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RapidPotential · 2013-05-10, 10:28

A greater question to be posed to United would be: how many plastic fans will there be left, assuming Moyes fails to hit the heights Ferguson has achieved (it would be almost impossible to emulate).

KiraYamatoFan · 2013-05-10, 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapidPotential

A greater question to be posed to United would be: how many plastic fans will there be left, assuming Moyes fails to hit the heights Ferguson has achieved (it would be almost impossible to emulate).

For me, I'd be more worried if we somehow are unable to reach heights in Europe again considering how other European top dogs keep winning their respective leagues and can also afford to focus more on Europe. That is Moyes' main challenge at this time and the reason why I was not too keen on signing him for the job.

The number of European Cups won is the last thing Liverpool fans have left to rub into our faces, so it's no wonder why I (and probably a large number of fans) want United to focus on knocking Liverpool off their perch on that last top front.

Terrestrial Dream · 2013-05-10, 22:17

I believe Fergie's record in Europe wasn't that great until recently. About 5 or 6 years ago, that was when Utd started to get better result in Europe. So giving Moyes this job isn't bad as domestically he wasn't bad and perhaps he will figure out European football better later on.

RapidPotential · 2013-05-11, 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

For me, I'd be more worried if we somehow are unable to reach heights in Europe again considering how other European top dogs keep winning their respective leagues and can also afford to focus more on Europe. That is Moyes' main challenge at this time and the reason why I was not too keen on signing him for the job.

The number of European Cups won is the last thing Liverpool fans have left to rub into our faces, so it's no wonder why I (and probably a large number of fans) want United to focus on knocking Liverpool off their perch on that last top front.

Liverpool fans have nothing but their history to thrive on. Of course they'd neglect the fact that during Ferguson's 26 years they've only ever had: 2 league titles, 4 League Cups, 4 FA Cups, 2 UEFA Super Cups, 1 UEFA Cup and 1 Champions League title.

Ferguson brought more success in Europe to United than any other manager before him (2 titles to Liverpool's 1). Moreover most of Liverpool's success in the Champions League were in the 80s, before the Heysel disaster. Since the 90s they've failed to record consistent success (even Chelsea have had greater success), but not to take anything away from them, their 2005 CL win was indeed incredible.

risingstar3110 · 2013-05-11, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by RapidPotential

Liverpool fans have nothing but their history to thrive on. Of course they'd neglect the fact that during Ferguson's 26 years they've only ever had: 2 league titles, 4 League Cups, 4 FA Cups, 2 UEFA Super Cups, 1 UEFA Cup and 1 Champions League title.

Ferguson brought more success in Europe to United than any other manager before him (2 titles to Liverpool's 1). Moreover most of Liverpool's success in the Champions League were in the 80s, before the Heysel disaster. Since the 90s they've failed to record consistent success (even Chelsea have had greater success), but not to take anything away from them, their 2005 CL win was indeed incredible.

2 league titles, 4 League Cups, 4 FA Cups, 2 UEFA Super Cups, 1 UEFA Cup and 1 Champions League? That is still roughly third in the league in terms of trophies won during that two and half decades. Behind United and Chelsea. The fact that United dominate the domestic league so much, that barely anything left for anyone else.

Liverpool talk was often in the past, because most of their achievements back in the 80s were so great leaving huge contrasts to their situation now. But they still won a few tittles, with the League Cup last year, CL and FA back in 2005-6, and small treble in 2001. Can't say the same thing with Spur, Aston Villa, Newcastle and Everton, especially Arsenal. It's like a curse on them to not top anything for past 8 years after winning the league and all with invincible squad. But have to say it's still a miraculous works for them to continuously finish in top 4 every season instead of actual decline

Bri · 2013-05-11, 13:45

United catching up with Liverpool in CL titles seems just a matter of time, assuming the current situation in European football endures.

Since 2005 the top earning teams have dominated the latter stages of the CL. If inexperienced coaches like Rijkaard or Di Matteo can win the thing, there is no reason Moyes can't do the same.

I can't see Liverpool break in to the EPL top 4 on a permanent basis any time soon without an external source of finance.

justavisitor · 2013-05-11, 17:34

Talking about Liverpool, the worst scenario for Man. United after Moyes takes over is that Man United could become what Liverpool is right now. It is still a good team, but not consistent enough to do anything important. Sometimes they are good enough to challenge the fourth spot but they are also happy to get the sixth place.

and actually imo the possibility is quite high.

I still like Moyes over Mourinho tho. Mourinho is a great coach and he will get more from the squad than Moyes, but at the same time Mourinho creates chaos every where he goes and he just can't stay long in the same place

KiraYamatoFan · 2013-05-11, 17:44

Almost everyone agrees about Mourinho's approach on how it leaves chaos wherever he goes. The trump card that Moyes has on his side (bar his knowledge of the English league) is the fact that Fergie still remains around the team, the same way Sir Matt Busby and Sir Bobby Charlton were around when Fergie began his spell at Old Trafford.

On a different topic, what do you think of Wigan beating Manchester City 1-0 in the FA Cup final today? That was awesome giantkilling for a rare time in such a final. City and Roberto Mancini this season...

justavisitor · 2013-05-11, 21:15

well, as a causal Man United fan, simply can't ask for a better result in the FA cup final today

But on the other hand, I guess every top team wants Mancini to stay so that loss may not be good news for the other teams actually...

I think Moyes is willing to obey other's command (or let's say, advice XD) for one or two seasons, but I still have some doubts about him. If he is a great coach then I am sure other good teams would have gotten him already. You just know a good coach is very rare to find when you see Benítez still got employed here and there

Bri · 2013-05-12, 07:44

Mancini should be commended for frustrating billionaire attempts at buying up football. He got a bit carried away at the end of the season last year, but now he is following the script much better.

Hope he can hang on for a while until FFP is in full swing.

SaintessHeart · 2013-05-12, 08:59

One more hour. Fergie's last game.

Cheers to all the Man U fans out there.

risingstar3110 · 2013-05-12, 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bri

United catching up with Liverpool in CL titles seems just a matter of time, assuming the current situation in European football endures.

Since 2005 the top earning teams have dominated the latter stages of the CL. If inexperienced coaches like Rijkaard or Di Matteo can win the thing, there is no reason Moyes can't do the same.

I can't see Liverpool break in to the EPL top 4 on a permanent basis any time soon without an external source of finance.

With the decline of EPL comparing to other leagues, unless United massively improve under Moyes, it will need some upsets for United to win another two within a decade or two.

I mean since last winning with a great squad of Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney.... United has been lost in CL every time they have to face an European power house such as Barcelona, Real and Bayern. Now we can throw Dortmund and Juventus (back) into the mix, and winning CL will require outstanding form or miracle more than ever

SaintessHeart · 2013-05-12, 10:41

Man U scored at 38', courtesy of Hernandez. Woot!

Swansea scored at 48', courtesy of Michu. 1-1 now.

Scholes out at 60'. Nicely played for the last game old man. 20 years for the Red Devils well served.

Michu out, Rangel in at 74'. Nice one-goal man.

Hernandez off, Giggs on at 75'. Everyone seems to be getting a chance to play today!

Flores tripped Van Persie at 76'. Free kick.

Flores shoved Van Persie at 82'. Free kick. Cmon man this is a gentleman's game! Make it a clean one!

Van Persie off-target at 85'.

FERDINAND SCORED AT 86'! 1ST GOAL OF THE SEASON AND A NICE ONE!

Anderson missed at 89'.

+3 minutes. MAKE IT COUNT MAN U!

VICTORY SEALED!

MANCHESTER UNITED v SWANSEA CITY - 2-1!

Terrestrial Dream · 2013-05-12, 11:44

Great finish from Ferdinand.

Terrestrial Dream · 2013-05-12, 11:50

Match over 2-1 Man Utd and end of the legend.

SaintessHeart · 2013-05-12, 11:56

Lol he highlighted that Scholes was retiring with him.

Bri · 2013-05-12, 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

With the decline of EPL comparing to other leagues, unless United massively improve under Moyes, it will need some upsets for United to win another two within a decade or two.

I mean since last winning with a great squad of Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney.... United has been lost in CL every time they have to face an European power house such as Barcelona, Real and Bayern. Now we can throw Dortmund and Juventus (back) into the mix, and winning CL will require outstanding form or miracle more than ever

Barcelona, Real, Bayern and United are the four highest earning teams regardless of league status and imo the only realistic regular contenders for the CL final stages in the foreseeable future. I don't think that is very competitive environment.

Juventus and Dortmund have impressed this year but can they remain competitive over time on half the budget of the other four? Milan, Inter, Liverpool and Arsenal have faded away. Chelsea, City and PSG might catch up, but only time will tell.

Currently Barcelona is in rapid decline. This Bayern side is on the upswing and due for a title soon. Real and United are in transition. That balance is continuously shifting over time. I'd be surprised if all of them haven't won another CL by the end of this decade.

germanturkey · 2013-05-12, 20:21

i hope FFP makes big changes, but i'm not holding my breath.

RapidPotential · 2013-05-13, 02:45

Us Arsenal fans can only look to the Invincibles season as our crowning moment. Domestically we've been more successful (if you exclude the League Cup as a "major" trophy) than even Liverpool (3 titles, 4 FA Cups, during Wenger's tenure). Sir Alex Ferguson ends his tenure on a high but I'll say the most shocking result was Norwich winning 4-0 against Albion, who are clearly faring much better in the table.

risingstar3110 · 2013-05-13, 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bri

Barcelona, Real, Bayern and United are the four highest earning teams regardless of league status and imo the only realistic regular contenders for the CL final stages in the foreseeable future. I don't think that is very competitive environment.

Juventus and Dortmund have impressed this year but can they remain competitive over time on half the budget of the other four? Milan, Inter, Liverpool and Arsenal have faded away. Chelsea, City and PSG might catch up, but only time will tell.

Currently Barcelona is in rapid decline. This Bayern side is on the upswing and due for a title soon. Real and United are in transition. That balance is continuously shifting over time. I'd be surprised if all of them haven't won another CL by the end of this decade.

But then how often the realistic contender win the CL?

I means if you look back in the past decade (10 years), the 4 teams you mentioned make the final 8 times (8/20) and won 4 times (4/20), three was to Barcelona. In fact only one to two team each decade won more than once . Barcelona around 201x, Milan mid 200x, Real late 199x, Milan eary 199x, and Liverpool early 1980x. Within 20 years, the powerhouse changed also around Juventus, Real, Valencia, Ajax, MU. All makes CL final several times in consecutive years, but none could do more than once each decade.

That's why i said MU will need massive improvement under Moyes, or at least two decade to get another 2 CL. Because teams in decline now, will be favour in competing CL within 3-5 years. Dortmund was facing bankrupt a few years ago, and Juventus was still playing 2nd league. Now they could even win it next season

If financial power was the key, you will expect to see Real more often, and the like Man City or PSG to make CL final within the next few years rather than anyone.

2013-05-10, 22:17	Link #4323
Terrestrial Dream 勇者 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tesla Leicht Institute Age: 34	I believe Fergie's record in Europe wasn't that great until recently. About 5 or 6 years ago, that was when Utd started to get better result in Europe. So giving Moyes this job isn't bad as domestically he wasn't bad and perhaps he will figure out European football better later on. __________________

2013-05-11, 17:34	Link #4327
justavisitor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Earth	Talking about Liverpool, the worst scenario for Man. United after Moyes takes over is that Man United could become what Liverpool is right now. It is still a good team, but not consistent enough to do anything important. Sometimes they are good enough to challenge the fourth spot but they are also happy to get the sixth place. and actually imo the possibility is quite high. I still like Moyes over Mourinho tho. Mourinho is a great coach and he will get more from the squad than Moyes, but at the same time Mourinho creates chaos every where he goes and he just can't stay long in the same place __________________ Come and join Ranka Lee Fanclub !!! Join our club and you will see 1)Ranka pics 2)Ranka/Alto pic 3)Relatively Sane discussion about Ranka 4)amv for Ranka To all old and new Sheryl fans: I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet

2013-05-11, 21:15	Link #4329
justavisitor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Earth	well, as a causal Man United fan, simply can't ask for a better result in the FA cup final today But on the other hand, I guess every top team wants Mancini to stay so that loss may not be good news for the other teams actually... I think Moyes is willing to obey other's command (or let's say, advice XD) for one or two seasons, but I still have some doubts about him. If he is a great coach then I am sure other good teams would have gotten him already. You just know a good coach is very rare to find when you see Benítez still got employed here and there __________________ Come and join Ranka Lee Fanclub !!! Join our club and you will see 1)Ranka pics 2)Ranka/Alto pic 3)Relatively Sane discussion about Ranka 4)amv for Ranka To all old and new Sheryl fans: I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet

2013-05-12, 08:59	Link #4331
SaintessHeart NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~ Join Date: Nov 2007 Age: 35	One more hour. Fergie's last game. Cheers to all the Man U fans out there. __________________ When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus. Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

2013-05-12, 10:41	Link #4333
SaintessHeart NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~ Join Date: Nov 2007 Age: 35	Man U scored at 38', courtesy of Hernandez. Woot! Swansea scored at 48', courtesy of Michu. 1-1 now. Scholes out at 60'. Nicely played for the last game old man. 20 years for the Red Devils well served. Michu out, Rangel in at 74'. Nice one-goal man. Hernandez off, Giggs on at 75'. Everyone seems to be getting a chance to play today! Flores tripped Van Persie at 76'. Free kick. Flores shoved Van Persie at 82'. Free kick. Cmon man this is a gentleman's game! Make it a clean one! Van Persie off-target at 85'. FERDINAND SCORED AT 86'! 1ST GOAL OF THE SEASON AND A NICE ONE! Anderson missed at 89'. +3 minutes. MAKE IT COUNT MAN U! VICTORY SEALED! MANCHESTER UNITED v SWANSEA CITY - 2-1! __________________ When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus. Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing. Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2013-05-12 at 11:52.

2013-05-10, 10:28	Link #4321
RapidPotential Spinning round and round~ Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Singapore Age: 32	A greater question to be posed to United would be: how many plastic fans will there be left, assuming Moyes fails to hit the heights Ferguson has achieved (it would be almost impossible to emulate).

2013-05-11, 13:45	Link #4326
Bri Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009	United catching up with Liverpool in CL titles seems just a matter of time, assuming the current situation in European football endures. Since 2005 the top earning teams have dominated the latter stages of the CL. If inexperienced coaches like Rijkaard or Di Matteo can win the thing, there is no reason Moyes can't do the same. I can't see Liverpool break in to the EPL top 4 on a permanent basis any time soon without an external source of finance.

2013-05-11, 17:44	Link #4328
KiraYamatoFan Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Montreal, QC, Canada Age: 40	Almost everyone agrees about Mourinho's approach on how it leaves chaos wherever he goes. The trump card that Moyes has on his side (bar his knowledge of the English league) is the fact that Fergie still remains around the team, the same way Sir Matt Busby and Sir Bobby Charlton were around when Fergie began his spell at Old Trafford. On a different topic, what do you think of Wigan beating Manchester City 1-0 in the FA Cup final today? That was awesome giantkilling for a rare time in such a final. City and Roberto Mancini this season...

2013-05-12, 07:44	Link #4330
Bri Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009	Mancini should be commended for frustrating billionaire attempts at buying up football. He got a bit carried away at the end of the season last year, but now he is following the script much better. Hope he can hang on for a while until FFP is in full swing.

2013-05-12, 11:44	Link #4334
Terrestrial Dream 勇者 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tesla Leicht Institute Age: 34	Great finish from Ferdinand. __________________

2013-05-12, 11:50	Link #4335
Terrestrial Dream 勇者 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Tesla Leicht Institute Age: 34	Match over 2-1 Man Utd and end of the legend. __________________

2013-05-12, 11:56	Link #4336
SaintessHeart NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~ Join Date: Nov 2007 Age: 35	Lol he highlighted that Scholes was retiring with him. __________________ When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus. Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

2013-05-12, 20:21	Link #4338
germanturkey Udon-YAAAAAAAA Join Date: Jan 2008 Age: 35	i hope FFP makes big changes, but i'm not holding my breath. __________________ Aria is the best series EVER. Rewatch Origination with me. Blessed are those who listen to headphones, for they listen to the sound of heaven.

2013-05-13, 02:45	Link #4339
RapidPotential Spinning round and round~ Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Singapore Age: 32	Us Arsenal fans can only look to the Invincibles season as our crowning moment. Domestically we've been more successful (if you exclude the League Cup as a "major" trophy) than even Liverpool (3 titles, 4 FA Cups, during Wenger's tenure). Sir Alex Ferguson ends his tenure on a high but I'll say the most shocking result was Norwich winning 4-0 against Albion, who are clearly faring much better in the table.