Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[ScudFace]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

I don't think these two are mutually exclusive, and there is a bit of both in Homura's motivations. Homura does have Madoka's best interests at heart, and she wants to give Madoka a normal life. Even in the TV series there is an element of selfish desire on Homura's part. She wants to be with Madoka, and she wants to be the one who protects her. This need to be the protector cannot be fulfilled if Homura goes to Madoka's magical girl heaven - such would be a case of being protected by Madoka.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. It is normal human behaviour to fulfill one's own desires. Her desire to save Madoka can be interpreted as a noble one. Homura isn't, and does not claim to be, a saint. Madoka is much closer to that role.

If this is the case then Homura's transformation into what she claims to be will never be complete and nor will she ever be the equal and opposite to madoka's godhood. Madoka's sacrifice and subsequent fate does not contain a trace of darkness and so if Homura's actions were to be the nullification of that sacrifice then it must be completed with a heart of pure darkness in pursuit of selfish desire which would consume the hope and happiness of everyone besides herself. However, this isn't the case.

[Triple_R]

There can be little doubt that Homura would sacrifice her life if she felt it was necessary to protect/save Madoka. This is consistently suggested strongly throughout the anime, both TV series and movies. Being willing to die for the sake of another represents the heights of selflessness for humans - I mean, if you don't count this as selfless, then literally nothing is selfless, and so the whole discussion over selfish vs. selfless might as well be chucked out the window. So simply for the purposes of discussion/character analysis, if nothing else, I think this should be considered an indication of selflessness on Homura's part.

However, the specific way Homura goes about trying to protect/save Madoka has a touch of selfishness to it. Basically, her goal is selfless but she has personal preferences when it comes to her means, and that gives a slight element of selfishness to it all. I mean, not to be too cynical about it, but... It's kind of convenient that the way you protect/save someone is by amassing massive amounts of power and taking over the world.

Now, I don't think Homura is power-hungry in some "Mwa-Ha-Ha-Ha!" villain way, but I do think she desires control, and that this desire is more selfish than selfless.


So tl;dr, it's a little bit selfish but mostly selfless.

[Solace]

I believe the phrase you're looking for Triple R, is necessary evil.

[MYWA]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There can be little doubt that Homura would sacrifice her life if she felt it was necessary to protect/save Madoka. This is consistently suggested strongly throughout the anime, both TV series and movies. Being willing to die for the sake of another represents the heights of selflessness for humans - I mean, if you don't count this as selfless, then literally nothing is selfless, and so the whole discussion over selfish vs. selfless might as well be chucked out the window. So simply for the purposes of discussion/character analysis, if nothing else, I think this should be considered an indication of selflessness on Homura's part.

However, the specific way Homura goes about trying to protect/save Madoka has a touch of selfishness to it. Basically, her goal is selfless but she has personal preferences when it comes to her means, and that gives a slight element of selfishness to it all. I mean, not to be too cynical about it, but... It's kind of convenient that the way you protect/save someone is by amassing massive amounts of power and taking over the world.

Now, I don't think Homura is power-hungry in some "Mwa-Ha-Ha-Ha!" villain way, but I do think she desires control, and that this desire is more selfish than selfless.


So tl;dr, it's a little bit selfish but mostly selfless.

Well, yes. I'd say one of the principle things about her actions in Rebellion is that they were very much tinged with selfishness however much she stresses that it was for Madoka. I'd actually be a little surprised if that fact is not touched on in the series at some point, preferably when Madoka is bitch-slapping the hell out of her.

Another one of the things I love about the movie is that, as a movie that had no business being made, it took that salient disturbing aspect of Homura's personality and actions in the show that were not really addressed in the show and blew it up to make an engaging character piece. Contrary to Homura's actions being out-of-character in the movie as many claim, I found it to be a wonderful unfolding of another side of her personality that felt authentic, organic. To be quite honest, before the move I found Homura a little boring. Yeah, her backstory was cool, but that's all it was, a cool backstory to a kind of flat personality. It was great to see her cut loose and become that much more dynamic and interesting personality wise.

[LightDragonman]

Yeah, I felt that Rebellion greatly expanded on the themes and metaphors seen in the original show, and also made them stronger as a result.

Also, can I just say that Rebellion also seems to have been heavily inspired by other works. Like, based on my vieweings, I found that it seems to have been influenced by works like The Matrix, Plato's Allegory of the Cave, Paradise Lost, Friedrich Nietzsche's Philosophy, Kantian Philosophy, Gnosticism, Buddhism, Equilibrium, Revolutionary Girl Utena, Inception, H.P. Lovecraft, Persona, Saya no Uta, Princess Tutu, Dark City, Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel, Paprika, and The End Of Evangelion.

Not that this is a bad thing though, as like The Matrix, it takes all these influences and creates something new out of them. Just another reason why I love this film so much.

[Monoriu]

I like it that the movie explored some of Homura's character flaws. They make her character more complete, complex and human. Her tendency to work alone led her to reject Kyoko and Sayaka's offers to help, making her mission much harder. Her unwillingness to communicate and mistrust of others led to a fight with Mami. She is even unwilling to reveal her real worries to Madoka. Her over-reliance on time magic and overconfidence led to her defeat at the hands of Mami. Her ruthlessness and jumping to conclusions too quickly led her to interrogate the wrong target in Bebe, who wants to help her. Her suicidal thoughts and self-sacrificial tendency almost got herself killed as a witch. Her needlessly tough exterior made an enemy in Sayaka in her new world.

She is still the determined, badass heroine with a hidden heart of gold and thorough devotion to Madoka. Her flaws actually make her more believable.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

I like it that the movie explored some of Homura's character flaws. They make her character more complete, complex and human. Her tendency to work alone led her to reject Kyoko and Sayaka's offers to help, making her mission much harder. Her unwillingness to communicate and mistrust of others led to a fight with Mami. She is even unwilling to reveal her real worries to Madoka. Her over-reliance on time magic and overconfidence led to her defeat at the hands of Mami. Her ruthlessness and jumping to conclusions too quickly led her to interrogate the wrong target in Bebe, who wants to help her. Her suicidal thoughts and self-sacrificial tendency almost got herself killed as a witch. Her needlessly tough exterior made an enemy in Sayaka in her new world.

I definitely agree with you here.

However, the way I'd put it is that many of Homura's character traits are neither inherently good or inherently bad - The trait itself is good in some cases, and not so good in others. Kind of like
strong-willed/stubborn.

In the TV series, these "double-sided" character traits were presented in a largely if not entirely positive light. So here in the movie we get to see a clear downside to them. And yes, that makes Homura a more believable and well-rounded character.

[Monoriu]

Any of you listened to the "Homura first take" audio track that comes with the BD? So far I've only listened to the part near the ending. Her tone in this version sounds more detached with reality, there is a stronger emphasis on the evil part, and more gloating. Her tone in the release version feels closer to the original Homura.

So why include this version in the BD? This could be our first hint on what Shaft intends to do with Homura in the next story. There is an intention on Shaft's part to make Homura more human and less evil. This is probably Shaft's way of saying, hey, don't complain, we've already toned down her evilness in the release version. What we planned originally was worse. Maybe they have a hard time deciding which version to use, so they release both versions to let the fans decide.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

So why include this version in the BD?

Anime BDs are collector items, so the more special features and bonus content the better. That's your answer.

Originally Posted by Monoriu

Maybe they have a hard time deciding which version to use, so they release both versions to let the fans decide.

No, the other track is a bonus. The proper track is the proper track. No need to overthink things.

[Tranhieu]

I have mixed feelings about the 3rd movie. On one hand, it effortlessly presents us the other sides of Homura's emotions as a character, regardless whether they are positive or negative. On the other hand, I cannot overcome the thought that she's been overly obsessed with Madoka for so long, to the point she's become selfish enough to imprison Madoka in her own world (the 2nd half, not the labyrinth in the 1st half). Though I know by showing us that SHAFT is trying to tell the viewers 'hey this mahou shoujo is also a human girl in the end', it somehow betrays the image of a selfless, dedicated, and determined Homura I got from the TV series.

[ScudFace]

She is selfless only as far as Madoka is concerned. Can you imagine her sacrificing herself or devoting so much effort into saving Mami, Kyoko, or Sayaka. I believe the answer is no and evidence for this is that apathetic look she wore as Sayaka was well on her path to self destruction. You can say she is devoted, but can you really say that someone who is willing to recreate the whole world and ensnare everyone in it for the sake of her single minded obsession be a selfless person?

[Tranhieu]

And that's why I said the way Homura is portrayed in the 2nd half doesn't sit well with me. The change in character trait is too fast and abrupt that I find it hard to believe she's the same Homura I knew from the TV series. It would have been more convincing if Urobuchi'd given more explanation as to why she resorted to such endeavor (apart from being selfish).

In any case, the only excuse I got for her imprisoning Madoka in her rewritten world is that she was trying to protect Madoka from Incubator herself, again. Though I cannot help but think there other better methods than turning evil. Anyway I need to rewatch the movie again this weekend to see if I'm missing out on anything (pretty sure I am).

[woxx]

Originally Posted by Tranhieu

And that's why I said the way Homura is portrayed in the 2nd half doesn't sit well with me. The change in character trait is too fast and abrupt that I find it hard to believe she's the same Homura I knew from the TV series. It would have been more convincing if Urobuchi'd given more explanation as to why she resorted to such endeavor (apart from being selfish).

In any case, the only excuse I got for her imprisoning Madoka in her rewritten world is that she was trying to protect Madoka from Incubator herself, again. Though I cannot help but think there other better methods than turning evil. Anyway I need to rewatch the movie again this weekend to see if I'm missing out on anything (pretty sure I am).

It wasn't fast and it was pretty clear. Just rewatch flower field scene and the scene where Madoka saves Homura from her witch.
Homura literally said that she hates herself for letting Madoka to sacrifice herself(in 12th episode) and accepting it for a period of time. And she almost literally said she won't stop from "saving" Madoka any longer (right before shooting in incubator's seal), but Madoka doesn't even understand what she is talking about.

[Quadratic]

Wasn't sure what to expect from this movie, but I thought it was a fantastic movie.
I admit I did find a few things out of place, such as the transformation scene (too drawn out for a movie of this tone) and the cake singing scene (I felt awkward watching it, for some reason...).
There's also Bebe, who I felt was didn't logically belong in the group. However, I let it slide because it brought in the awesome Homura vs Mami fight scene.

Not sure what's the right words to describe it but the final scene with Homura dancing in the moonlight was...hauntingly beautiful.

I think this movie shows there's a never ending battle between Madoka-Homura-Kyubey.
Call it milking the series, but I would love for a continuation/follow-up for this movie.

[MartianMage]

Watched the 3rd movie. There are some things that I still find confusing(and it's gonna take a while for me to get a chance to rewatch and dissect since I'm pretty busy lately I can hardly post) but overall I liked the movie.

Also Homura vs Mami fight is one of the best if not the best gunfight in anime so far!

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by MartianMage

Also Homura vs Mami fight is one of the best if not the best gunfight in anime so far!

It was an awesome action scene. I honestly think that Mami's overall "coolness" in this movie has been under-appreciated a bit. Her plot significance was not that big, but she added a lot of pure entertainment value to this film.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It was an awesome action scene. I honestly think that Mami's overall "coolness" in this movie has been under-appreciated a bit. Her plot significance was not that big, but she added a lot of pure entertainment value to this film.

Agreed. That was honestly one of the best fight scenes I've seen in any anime, or even anything at all. I could watch it over and over again.

[LightDragonman]

Yeah, that fight scene is definitely the highlight. It pretty much rivals The Matrix in terms of gun fighting with bullet time. Heck, that is where all of the influences this film took from The Matrix are most evident.

On another note, I finished watching the film again. I'll just post what I wrote on another forum, so I can get your thoughts as well.

You know, the film does seem to heavily imply that Homura's new world will not last forever, and that it is founded on rather flimsy grounds. Heck, the actions of Homura's familiars, and her reaction to Madoka's remembrance of her past self also suggests that Homura herself knows that she won't be able to keep up this facade forever. Much like the ending of Watchmen in that regards. A world founded on a lie will inevitably collapse in on itself (I now can't help but feel that Homura's memory rewrite is almost a Take That at Inception).

The question then is, how far will Homura go to keep up this lie? She has already pretty much performed a Mind Rape on Sayaka and the others. Will she become like an Agent Smith from The Matrix, a Grammaton Cleric from Equilibrium, or a Frank Butterman from Hot Fuzz; killing off anyone who dares to act out of free will and leave this illusion? If that is the case, then who will be the Neo / John Preston / Nicholas Angel who will reveal the lie for what it is, and actively work to bring it down? Consider that Homura's new Soul Gem looks like that of a Queen Chess Piece. The Queen is basically the most powerful of all the pieces, and is basically the one used to best protect the King. Yet a well played Knight is the best counter to the Queen (thanks to TV Tropes for adressing this symbolism). Now who in the series is most like that of a Knight?

Man, it has really gotten me excited for the follow-up, as there are so many ways that they can take this series now.

[KoiYuki]

Originally Posted by KoiYuki

The fact that this is on the screen for an extended period of time makes me question that:

I don't know if anyone remembers me posting this before, but looking at the bluray, they seem to have fixed it (well, Madoka's hair is still too short, but hey). Makes me wonder what else they re-drew:

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by LightDragonman

You know, the film does seem to heavily imply that Homura's new world will not last forever, and that it is founded on rather flimsy grounds. Heck, the actions of Homura's familiars, and her reaction to Madoka's remembrance of her past self also suggests that Homura herself knows that she won't be able to keep up this facade forever.

Well, "Madoka's world" wasn't going to "last forever" either. Even if Homura didn't interfere, the QBs would have wrecked it soon enough. The movie is clear about that too.

Anyway, I feel that a better question than "how far will Homura go to keep up this" is what is going to happen with the world when her barrier starts to crumble. I doubt the universe can just go back to what it was. Remember that besides the barrier, the universe rewrote itself as well, so it's not the same universe anymore. And even if it was, it would just mean the QBs are free to fuck Madoka over again. And now they would want revenge too, after all Homura surely made them go through.

You know why these girls always fail to accomplish a real and lasting change for the world? Because they're always doing it alone. Homura, of course, is a loner who doesn't want to rely on anyone, but even Madoka has the habit of taking everything upon herself. If both girls worked together, they would create the perfect world.

Then again, one of the themes of the series was the consequence of lack of communication, so shitty results are to be expected. Perhaps, if a continuation is made and by a new writer, maybe this time the characters would be allowed to truly bond with each other, and then perhaps the world could finally be saved for real.