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TehChron · 2010-09-09, 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well... it's not like I don't wanna answer or that I can't, but I think we should seriously stop here. I think we expressed our opinions quite eloquently. We should go back talking about umineko now.

frankly I wouldn't be surprised if all these recent posts will be removed entirely.

Then allow me to drag things full circle:

This goes back to "without love it cannot be seen", and the nature of the Rokkenjimma catbox.

If we trust the individual telling the story that is their "truth", then we can accept it as the actual reality.

If we do not, we reject their perspective, and attempt to establish our own, or, perhaps, seek another individual that would put forth an interpretation we prefer.

"Prove witches exist", "Prove the existence of numbers", "Prove there was really 100 tons of gold", etc.

All of those are essentially just concepts and interpretations. We ourselves have not seen the events firsthand, and only can hold absolute trust in the Red Truth, since it is fact which need not be proven....Which one could say is simply "accepted/prior knowledge" if we were to classify it's relationship to us. "It is established that this happened." Or something.

In effect, the Red takes the place of what is commonly accepted, or even prior knowledge. All else is simply interpretation/concepts/hypothesis etc.

Jan-Poo · 2010-09-09, 21:53

10 tons of gold are easy to prove, even in the real world, no need for red truths.

Proving witches, however, is the same as proving numbers.

I think Ange in EP4 was able to understand that there are different layers of existence. Strictly speaking magic doesn't exist, but as a concept it does. Maria could see this concept and therefore for Maria "magic" existed.

Ange understood that even if magic didn't exist in the world it could still exist for some people.

The same concept can be applied with furnitures. Technically they do not exist, but with "love" you can see them, you can talk to them, you can play with them. Hell, people even fall in love with them, and no I'm not talking about Shannon and Kanon specifically, I'm talking about those madmen that want to marry 2D characters.

TehChron · 2010-09-09, 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

10 tons of gold are easy to prove, even in the real world, no need for red truths.

Within the confines of the story, I mean.

Quote:

Proving witches, however, is the same as proving numbers.

I think Ange in EP4 was able to understand that there are different layers of existence. Strictly speaking magic doesn't exist, but as a concept it does. Maria could see this concept and therefore for Maria "magic" existed.

Ange understood that even if magic didn't exist in the world it could still exist for some people.

I believe she even says as much.

Quote:

The same concept can be applied with furnitures. Technically they do not exist, but with "love" you can see them, you can talk to them, you can play with them. Hell, people even fall in love with them, and no I'm not talking about Shannon and Kanon specifically, I'm talking about those madmen that want to marry 2D characters.

>_>

I wouldn't call that love, more like obsession.

Jan-Poo · 2010-09-09, 22:12

Yeah probably, but you know...

There was that book where one of the characters realized that her wife didn't really knew him, she had an image of him that was different from his real self. This man then wondered, "if she doesn't really know me, and she thinks I am what I really am not, then who she really loves? Does she love me, or isn't it more true to say that she loves the false image that she superposed over me?"

And this kind of situation isn't even really that unusual. This completely reverses the matter. There are many people that do not actually love other people but illusions they made up. The only difference is that these illusions have a vessel, while 2D characters do not.

TehChron · 2010-09-09, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yeah probably, but you know...

There was that book where one of the characters realized that her wife didn't really knew him, she had an image of him that was different from his real self. This man then wondered, "if she doesn't really know me, and she thinks I am what I really am not, then who she really loves? Does she love me, or isn't it more true to say that she loves the false image that she superposed over me?"

And this kind of situation isn't even really that unusual. This completely reverses the matter. There are many people that do not actually love other people but illusions they made up. The only difference is that these illusions have a vessel, while 2D characters do not.

Those people are ones who were desperate enough for a partner that they came up with an ideal and imposed it upon the person that would stay with them.

It's not so much a matter of love, but desire or a hunger for the ideal. And when it doesnt show up, imagining that it has.

Jan-Poo · 2010-09-09, 22:37

frankly speaking... uh... this is probably brutal but...

Dante didn't love Beatrice, he loved the idealized image he made of her.

He barely talked to her, for the most part he just watched her during masses, there's no way he really knew her. Dante was married and had absolutely no intention to divorce and marry Beatrice instead, hell "divorce" didn't even exist at that time.

Even so Dante believed his love for Beatrice was the greatest form of love possible.

And Kinzo? Even so he was "loving" Beatrice2, what he really loved and kept loving was the "ghost" of Beatrice Castiglioni, an illusion, he didn't really love Beatrice2.

Battler is the same really. The Beatrice he loves doesn't even exist. He knows that she truly is Shannon, however he wants her to talk like her witch self, something that Shannon would never do.

If you think about all this, the idea that Jessica and George fell in love with furnitures isn't that strange.

TehChron · 2010-09-09, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

frankly speaking... uh... this is probably brutal but...

Dante didn't love Beatrice, he loved the idealized image he made of her.

He barely talked to her, for the most part he just watched her during masses, there's no way he really knew her. Dante was married and had absolutely no intention to divorce and marry Beatrice instead, hell "divorce" didn't even exist at that time.

Even so Dante believed his love for Beatrice was the greatest form of love possible.

Well, to be fair, back then Marriage was just as much a business proposition as it was a romantic entanglement.

Quote:

And Kinzo? Even so he was "loving" Beatrice2, what he really loved and kept loving was the "ghost" of Beatrice Castiglioni, an illusion, he didn't really love Beatrice2.

Poor Beatrice2...

Quote:

Battler is the same really. The Beatrice he loves doesn't even exist. He knows that she truly is Shannon, however he wants her to talk like her witch self, something that Shannon would never do.

Perhaps that Beatrice is the true self? Wouldn't that be nice, and the reason for why Battler is the focus of the story, rather than George or Jessica?

Beatrice is the true self she could never express to anyone but Battler.

Quote:

If you think about all this, the idea that Jessica and George fell in love with furnitures isn't that strange.

Both were also portrayed as extremely hungry for affection. George to sate his ego, and Jessica because she was jealous of her friends.

Jan-Poo · 2010-09-09, 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by TehChron

Perhaps that Beatrice is the true self? Wouldn't that be nice, and the reason for why Battler is the focus of the story, rather than George or Jessica?

Beatrice is the true self she could never express to anyone but Battler.

It's doubtful because Beatrice asked to be killed.
................................

Unless she meant she wanted to be killed for real...

Judoh · 2010-09-09, 23:37

Jan-poo what do you make of the ep4last.png's in the efe folder? I'm talking about those red texts that appear and flash at the screen at the end of the episode.

EDIT: I just thought I 'd ask since a few of them seem relevant to this discussion.

One says "Please kill me quickly", another says "Why can't I love anyone?" and yet another says "Try and stop me"

TehChron · 2010-09-09, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It's doubtful because Beatrice asked to be killed.
................................

Unless she meant she wanted to be killed for real...

I honestly wouldn't be surprised. Survivor's guilt can be a horrible thing. Or maybe the burden of her part in the murders would weigh heavily enough on her to feel that she deserves to be revenged upon, probably by Battler.

If you look at it that way, one could see something almost poignant in wanting the one to mete justice onto you to be the one you love, who you also helped to take nearly everything from.

Jan-Poo · 2010-09-10, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Jan-poo what do you make of the ep4last.png's in the efe folder? I'm talking about those red texts that appear and flash at the screen at the end of the episode.

EDIT: I just thought I 'd ask since a couple of them seem relevant to this discussion.

One says "Please kill me quickly", another says "Why can't I love anyone?" and yet another says "Try and stop me"

Well one of the first thing I thought after EP7 is that it explained a lot of the fragmented red texts that appeared at the end of EP4, and they also match with Kanon and Shannon last words during the duel.

Yasu, Shannon, Kanon... they all say that it would have been better if they died right after being born.

Quote:

It would have been better if we had died right after being born.
......That is our Father's sin, isn't it...
Yeah. So he can just die. Let them all die.
Yeah. Everyone will die. It'll happen very soon. ......And right after, everyone will revive, and we'll be able to see them again. We won't be birds in a cage anymore.

Yasu survived at a big price, her body disfigured, she doesn't think she's qualified to love, then it was better if they let her die. The step to "I want to die" is close, and Beatrice wants Battler to kill her...
if Battler doesn't kill her...
she will kill him...

Man... is Beatrice's mind really that fucked up?
I don't want to think she's a mass murderer, but the evidences against her are overwhelming...

Used Can · 2010-09-10, 01:52

Hmm... I don't think Yasu's and Beatrice's personalities are that similar. Nor is Yasu's and Shannon's. But well, it's being pointed out several times people change over time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Man... is Beatrice's mind really that fucked up?
I don't want to think she's a mass murderer, but the evidences against her are overwhelming...

Well, in EP7's Tea Party Beatrice had dead/empty eyes. That seemed seriously odd to me. In addition, the killings took place in Lion's world as well - and Lion had no reason to plan anything. So, my guess is someone exploited the situation created by the epitaph, and Kyrie Time happened.

Jan-Poo · 2010-09-10, 06:57

Anyway even if there is an exploiter, all evidence says that Beatrice wanted to kill everyone. If you think that the 900tons of explosive existed, then Beatrice knew about them.
If it were me, I'd make disarming such a monstrous device my priority. At the very least I would destroy the trigger (disposing of the explosive would be quite problematic... but not something impossible to do in two years).
I don't know about you, but personally I wouldn't be able to sleep comfortably If I knew I was sitting on enough TNT to pulverize me and everyone I knew.

That of course makes Genji equally questionable, but that Genji is a robot who consider obeying his master a priority over any kind of moral issue was already ascertained.

cmos · 2010-09-10, 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Genji is a robot who consider obeying his master a priority over any kind of moral issue was already ascertained.

But he hid the fact that the baby survived from his Master and lied to everyone for many years. Yes, he was afraid, and rightly so, that Kinzo would repeat his "mistake", but these his actions can't be considered as "obedience over moral issues".

Will Wright · 2010-09-10, 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Battler is the same really. The Beatrice he loves doesn't even exist. He knows that she truly is Shannon, however he wants her to talk like her witch self, something that Shannon would never do.

I agree with your other comparisons, but if Beatrice was indeed another personality Shannon had, then he isn't loving an illusion so much as a section of her brain.
Although one could argue that in episode 6 chick-beatrice=shannon therefore that's why Battler doesn't like her then Shannon goes psycho and stuff.

...Sorry, in a hurry. Will make more sense of that when I come back.

Jan-Poo · 2010-09-10, 09:48

this video I found makes me wonder if Ryuukishi's calculations were correct:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0Bl2...eature=related

this is the record of a one million pounds of explosives set off to simulate the effect of an atomic bomb shockwave.

one million pounds is roughly the equivalent of 450 tonnes, that is half of the amount that caused the Rokkenjima incident according to the EP7 tea party

the kind of damage generated doesn't seem congruent to what I was expecting. The diameter of the fireball is more or less as big as a destroyer (about 150 meters).
It's hard to imagine that by doubling that amount of explosive you could reach 1 km.

Damage on the ground seems to be negligible, although rokkenjima is probably made of brittle rocks that would crumble more easily.

Judging the shockwave shown in this video I think the Kuwadorian would probably suffer heavy damage, but it wouldn't be razed.
Eva was probably in the basement when the explosion happened and got up only after the shockwave passed.

ijriims · 2010-09-10, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

one million pounds is roughly the equivalent of 450 tonnes, that is half of the amount that caused the Rokkenjima incident according to the EP7 tea party

the kind of damage generated doesn't seem congruent to what I was expecting. The diameter of the fireball is more or less as big as a destroyer (about 150 meters).
It's hard to imagine that by doubling that amount of explosive you could reach 1 km.

Do the houses (mansion, guesthouse, chapel) spread out as further as 1km? I don't remember the distance between the houses has been stated. But I remembered in EP2 it just took a few minutes to go from the mansion to the chapel.

Is it looking too hard on some details? Or you are dubious the reveal of explosives buried beneath the houses?

Jan-Poo · 2010-09-10, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ijriims

Do the houses (mansion, guesthouse, chapel) spread out as further as 1km? I don't remember the distance between the houses has been stated. But I remembered in EP2 it just took a few minutes to go from the mansion to the chapel.

Is it looking too hard on some details? Or you are dubious the reveal of explosives buried beneath the houses?

The distance between the port and the chapel is probably less than 1km, I estimate 500 m or so. But this doesn't matter. Beatrice in the EP7 tea party said that the 900 tons of explosive would create a 1km wide crater, and since Ange was watching that scene, that prediction must be congruent with what really happened, else Ange would doubt it.

As for the existence of the explosive, yes I find it very hard to believe for several reasons, but this is yet again not what I'm concern about.

My question is: given a 1km wide crater, what is the actual amount of TNT that you need to imagine to explain it with a bomb theory? do 900tons of TNT actually suffice?

ijriims · 2010-09-10, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The distance between the port and the chapel is probably less than 1km, I estimate 500 m or so. But this doesn't matter. Beatrice in the EP7 tea party said that the 900 tons of explosive would create a 1km wide crater, and since Ange was watching that scene, that prediction must be congruent with what really happened, else Ange would doubt it.

Maybe you can use this website http://keith.aa.washington.edu/crate...ling/index.htm

Though I have no idea what sort of soil it had or how deep the explosive were buried.

LyricalAura · 2010-09-10, 11:39

For comparison, the largest man-made crater in the United States is Sedan Crater in Nevada, created by a buried nuclear weapon with a yield equivalent to 104 kilotons of TNT. That crater has a diameter of 0.39 kilometers.

Are we supposed to believe that less than a hundredth of the TNT produced a crater over twice as large? For that matter, why wasn't Kuwadorian razed by ejecta in the process?

2010-09-09, 21:53	Link #17542
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	10 tons of gold are easy to prove, even in the real world, no need for red truths. Proving witches, however, is the same as proving numbers. I think Ange in EP4 was able to understand that there are different layers of existence. Strictly speaking magic doesn't exist, but as a concept it does. Maria could see this concept and therefore for Maria "magic" existed. Ange understood that even if magic didn't exist in the world it could still exist for some people. The same concept can be applied with furnitures. Technically they do not exist, but with "love" you can see them, you can talk to them, you can play with them. Hell, people even fall in love with them, and no I'm not talking about Shannon and Kanon specifically, I'm talking about those madmen that want to marry 2D characters. __________________

2010-09-09, 22:12	Link #17544
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Yeah probably, but you know... There was that book where one of the characters realized that her wife didn't really knew him, she had an image of him that was different from his real self. This man then wondered, "if she doesn't really know me, and she thinks I am what I really am not, then who she really loves? Does she love me, or isn't it more true to say that she loves the false image that she superposed over me?" And this kind of situation isn't even really that unusual. This completely reverses the matter. There are many people that do not actually love other people but illusions they made up. The only difference is that these illusions have a vessel, while 2D characters do not. __________________

2010-09-09, 22:37	Link #17546
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	frankly speaking... uh... this is probably brutal but... Dante didn't love Beatrice, he loved the idealized image he made of her. He barely talked to her, for the most part he just watched her during masses, there's no way he really knew her. Dante was married and had absolutely no intention to divorce and marry Beatrice instead, hell "divorce" didn't even exist at that time. Even so Dante believed his love for Beatrice was the greatest form of love possible. And Kinzo? Even so he was "loving" Beatrice2, what he really loved and kept loving was the "ghost" of Beatrice Castiglioni, an illusion, he didn't really love Beatrice2. Battler is the same really. The Beatrice he loves doesn't even exist. He knows that she truly is Shannon, however he wants her to talk like her witch self, something that Shannon would never do. If you think about all this, the idea that Jessica and George fell in love with furnitures isn't that strange. __________________

2010-09-09, 23:37	Link #17549
Judoh Mystery buff Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Gone Fishin!	Jan-poo what do you make of the ep4last.png's in the efe folder? I'm talking about those red texts that appear and flash at the screen at the end of the episode. EDIT: I just thought I 'd ask since a few of them seem relevant to this discussion. One says "Please kill me quickly", another says "Why can't I love anyone?" and yet another says "Try and stop me" __________________ Judoh's George Culprit Analysis George steals candy from kids! Archive of Ryukishi interviews Gold truth theories:" Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-09 at 23:59.

2010-09-10, 06:57	Link #17553
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Anyway even if there is an exploiter, all evidence says that Beatrice wanted to kill everyone. If you think that the 900tons of explosive existed, then Beatrice knew about them. If it were me, I'd make disarming such a monstrous device my priority. At the very least I would destroy the trigger (disposing of the explosive would be quite problematic... but not something impossible to do in two years). I don't know about you, but personally I wouldn't be able to sleep comfortably If I knew I was sitting on enough TNT to pulverize me and everyone I knew. That of course makes Genji equally questionable, but that Genji is a robot who consider obeying his master a priority over any kind of moral issue was already ascertained. __________________

2010-09-10, 09:48	Link #17556
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	this video I found makes me wonder if Ryuukishi's calculations were correct: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0Bl2...eature=related this is the record of a one million pounds of explosives set off to simulate the effect of an atomic bomb shockwave. one million pounds is roughly the equivalent of 450 tonnes, that is half of the amount that caused the Rokkenjima incident according to the EP7 tea party the kind of damage generated doesn't seem congruent to what I was expecting. The diameter of the fireball is more or less as big as a destroyer (about 150 meters). It's hard to imagine that by doubling that amount of explosive you could reach 1 km. Damage on the ground seems to be negligible, although rokkenjima is probably made of brittle rocks that would crumble more easily. Judging the shockwave shown in this video I think the Kuwadorian would probably suffer heavy damage, but it wouldn't be razed. Eva was probably in the basement when the explosion happened and got up only after the shockwave passed. __________________

2010-09-10, 11:39	Link #17560
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	For comparison, the largest man-made crater in the United States is Sedan Crater in Nevada, created by a buried nuclear weapon with a yield equivalent to 104 kilotons of TNT. That crater has a diameter of 0.39 kilometers. Are we supposed to believe that less than a hundredth of the TNT produced a crater over twice as large? For that matter, why wasn't Kuwadorian razed by ejecta in the process? __________________ "Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."