Log Horizon - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by J4n1

True, though i doubt most get slasher smiles while doing it.
But my point is, that outside battle, when he goes berserk, Krusty shows no signs of any anti social behavior, quite opposite, he is known as a charismatic guild leader.

Which is no proof that he can't be sociopath, there just is no actual signs of it, but psychopath could be argued from his combat/pre-combat behaviour.

Krusty is such a complex character, that I can see either term used to describe parts of his behaviour. Composed and charismatic, seemingly distant to those close to him (comparing Krusty and Misa to Marielle and Henrietta), pushes the buttons of those he takes an interest in (the princess and sometimes Shiroe), and a bloodthirsty madman when he's given himself licence to kill (his facade when sparring versus when slaughtering demi-humans).

I wanted to distil all of that into a single quip, but looks like I failed.

[Krono]

Originally Posted by aohige

No, you're ignoring the context.
This is a "contract", not a "manifest whatever the hell I want".
A binding contract needs a recipient who agrees to the conditions of his/her treatment.

If Shiroe could ever make a deal with a God, perhaps he could very well ask for anything to happen... granted the God agrees to the condition.

The subclass ability that Shiroe is abusing isn't "write contracts", it's "copy written things, including magical written things".

As such, yes Shiroe should be able to "manifest whatever the hell" he wants, with the limitations being the practical ones of "Does he have high enough level materials to write with?" and "Does he know what to write?".

A contract just happened to make the most sense for this situation.

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by J4n1

True, though i doubt most get slasher smiles while doing it.
But my point is, that outside battle, when he goes berserk, Krusty shows no signs of any anti social behavior, quite opposite, he is known as a charismatic guild leader.

Which is no proof that he can't be sociopath, there just is no actual signs of it, but psychopath could be argued from his combat/pre-combat behaviour.

Well the distinction or usage of psychopath vs sociopath is kinda hard to explain. It varies by authors or references. Without going in to the deeper stuff, at the core it's the same disorder but some separate the two terms by the kind of behavior they show, others by the cause of the disorder (be it psychological or social cause). Anyways they all have some varying degrees of antisocial behavior; diminished empathy or remorse; diminished or lack of moral compass and uninhibited behavior under certain circumstances. Another thing is that some higher functioning ones, many falling into criminal activities have shown good understanding of human behavior and social norms but don't necessarily follow them which leads to the next. It is speculated we have a lot more undiagnosed psychopaths/sociopaths in our society. The ones we diagnose are just the criminal or those whose behavior were easily exposed, but many go undetected like many highly successful people, specially leaders, who have this disorder. They are in those positions because ironically the bad stuff listed that comes with the disorder helps them in their daily life/work. They can manipulate or lead people however they want from the lower empathy or remorse to do their bidding and they can use unethical methods or bold moves to reach their goals. Does that ring a bell? seems like more than one character are psychopaths/sociopaths.

[GundamFan]

Great episode I figured they'd save Rudy some how.

I do think there are a couple of reasons why old Shiroe doesn't want this getting out the first being he doesn't know how easy it would be to replicate sure he used ultra rare items for the contract but without more experimentation there is no real way for him to know where the cut off point would be. Which means it's possible someone could create a force of enslaved Landers with something similar to the Adventurer subclass and at the very least there would be some needless deaths trying to find where the cutoff point would be.
The second big thing I see is the possibility of players being able to really kill each other scribes can make spell scrolls and Sigilmaker can add effects to weapons I'm not saying it would be easy but it's already been pretty well established the rules of this world are rather flexible.

[Ickarium]

Note that there's scenes of him practicing and experimenting, and others doing the same. And it says he used inks from the highest-class raids. And others are doing the same with their subclasses, if not as thoroughly in some areas as Shiro.

It's likely that, while we don't know it, there are rules involved. He's simply still learning the rules. We just don't know what they are. I'm pretty sure it's not 'Write a contract, Be God'

[sinner0]

Originally Posted by Side-streetdog

Yet, Again. I'm little disappoint in this episode as I expected too much.
Battle scene better than I though after several past episode but they did well last 2 episode.
It just I feel that they still can do better battle scene than this.
And contract scene... As it spell that break the world rule,
I expected something that show that something in world broke not just pillar of power.

Spoiler for Just little wish:

Also I little expected that more people will notice this paranormal since
later Nureha know that Shiroe develop new magic in grand scale even she doesn't what it is.
Well, I just want to see Nureha anyway

As I said, I just expected too much.

After all this episode still amazing.

About Rudy contract I think It wouldn't be something easy to be done like many afraid.
Yes, If this knowledge spread out. There should be a huge uproar.
But in fact it still be hard to do something like Shiroe did even you have lv.90 scriber.
It did point out in series that you must have to have both high enough lv. and ingredient to successfully created something.
But even crafter have same lv. and ingredient are the same, things mightn't come out to be the same.
Shiroe have scriber lv.90 that hard to find and ingredient are rare items.
What more is he know concept of the world that a few can understand.
You also might count Rudy eager to be adventurer as one of factors too.

So the condition of Rudy contract isn't something could happen easily.
Even so this knowledge would really change the world of Elder tale.

One more thing.
Rudy doesn't really changed to Adventurer.
But he got subclass as Adventurer that let him have privilege as Adventurer has.
Like can revive at cathedral, friend list, Exp bonus, Bank vault, and Detailed status.
So he still People of the land but have Adventurer ability.

I agree. Honestly speaking, the way the contract scene play out is somewhat disappointing compared to how I imagine it from the light novel. It's good, but it could be better.

I also expected them (Satelight Studio) to at least include Issac or Ein into the battle scene...

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

Note that there's scenes of him practicing and experimenting, and others doing the same. And it says he used inks from the highest-class raids. And others are doing the same with their subclasses, if not as thoroughly in some areas as Shiro.

It's likely that, while we don't know it, there are rules involved. He's simply still learning the rules. We just don't know what they are. I'm pretty sure it's not 'Write a contract, Be God'

Oh I'm sure there are rules involved if nothing else there are definitely requirements as far as the level of the raw materials required and while others are experimenting Shiro certainly doesn't want to draw attention to the fact that the laws of life and death can be bent. A group with a couple of weapons that could cause true death would be enough to upset the political balance of Akiba. Forget a contract to be a god I'd be more worried they could have a weapon enchanted so they can become the Grim Reaper.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Estavali

Well, I don't mean that monsters are natural in Serdesea, but rather that they have their origins in that world =3. I tend to see them as reincarnations of all those dead people in the past and to me, they are, or rather were, at least native to Serdesea, while the Adventurers literally came out from nowhere =3

Not necessarily, remember that World-Class magic is used to Bend/Break/Alter the natural rules of the world and reality. If the World-Class magic used to bring the monsters into this world broke the natural laws of the world/reality, they would still be considered an abomination, even if the material to make them occurs naturally.

However, I think we still dont have enough info at this point to actually decide one way or the other.

[ices]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

Note that there's scenes of him practicing and experimenting, and others doing the same. And it says he used inks from the highest-class raids. And others are doing the same with their subclasses, if not as thoroughly in some areas as Shiro.

It's likely that, while we don't know it, there are rules involved. He's simply still learning the rules. We just don't know what they are. I'm pretty sure it's not 'Write a contract, Be God'

I'm agree with you...

Originally Posted by GundamFan

Oh I'm sure there are rules involved if nothing else there are definitely requirements as far as the level of the raw materials required and while others are experimenting Shiro certainly doesn't want to draw attention to the fact that the laws of life and death can be bent. A group with a couple of weapons that could cause true death would be enough to upset the political balance of Akiba. Forget a contract to be a god I'd be more worried they could have a weapon enchanted so they can become the Grim Reaper.

Now just wait until a level-90 maid becomes OP too, and you'll be surprised!!

[Wandering_Youth]

Booo, I was hoping for this episode to have a good chunk of combat, but the adventures vs goblins was so short and one sided.

Something is starting to bother me about our near fallen hero Rudy, he's a native of that world yet he knows about the other world that the players come from. What exactly is Rudy anyways?

[watisit]

Originally Posted by Wandering_Youth

Booo, I was hoping for this episode to have a good chunk of combat, but the adventures vs goblins was so short and one sided.

Something is starting to bother me about our near fallen hero Rudy, he's a native of that world yet he knows about the other world that the players come from. What exactly is Rudy anyways?

What did he say about the real world? I don't recall anything significant

[Swordstriker21]

Originally Posted by Wandering_Youth

Booo, I was hoping for this episode to have a good chunk of combat, but the adventures vs goblins was so short and one sided.

Something is starting to bother me about our near fallen hero Rudy, he's a native of that world yet he knows about the other world that the players come from. What exactly is Rudy anyways?

LH has never been that kind of series. Granted that the actions scenes were a bit cut down to size but even in the novels the fights were very concise. This is not an action series even though it does get a dose of action from time to time. World/Character building is what it's best at since this was written by Mamare Touno (one of the best world building LN authors in my opinion).

And if you're talking about that bit w/ Ray Pollock sandwiches they were actually talking about sandwiches made by Ray Pollock (Adventurer) in the city of Akiba. He was pretending to know about the real world. Notice that he never starts a conversation about IRL. He just unilaterally agrees to whatever someone (Isuzu in that instance) mentions.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

Not necessarily, remember that World-Class magic is used to Bend/Break/Alter the natural rules of the world and reality. If the World-Class magic used to bring the monsters into this world broke the natural laws of the world/reality, they would still be considered an abomination, even if the material to make them occurs naturally.

However, I think we still dont have enough info at this point to actually decide one way or the other.

Yes, they are abominations, but that's not the point.
They originate from the world, making them native abominations. While adventurers (other than Rudy) came from outside.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Metaneo

Not necessarily, remember that World-Class magic is used to Bend/Break/Alter the natural rules of the world and reality. If the World-Class magic used to bring the monsters into this world broke the natural laws of the world/reality, they would still be considered an abomination, even if the material to make them occurs naturally.

However, I think we still dont have enough info at this point to actually decide one way or the other.

Originally Posted by J4n1

Yes, they are abominations, but that's not the point.
They originate from the world, making them native abominations. While adventurers (other than Rudy) came from outside.

the demi humans are godzilla and rodan

adventures are Cthulhu and friends.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

the demi humans are godzilla and rodan

adventures are Cthulhu and friends.

Exactly.

Spoiler:

[FRS]

Episode went more or less as expected, but the contract signing was really shown dramacticly.

I wished we had more battle scene but at least we got shown Krusty's adorable faces ^^;

[ronelm2000]

And on another note, where's my Kyubey joke of Log Horizon?

Shiro: Why don't you make a contract with me and become a magical girl adventurer? :3

[blewin]

wow, Shiro's ability is awesome. He can even turn a person from the land into an adventurer, giving him "eternal" life? I wonder what kind of an impact that'd have in the world!

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by blewin

wow, Shiro's ability is awesome. He can even turn a person from the land into an adventurer, giving him "eternal" life? I wonder what kind of an impact that'd have in the world!

its not really awesome. Shiro just had the right knowledge, right materials and the right skill to do the job.

its not really an aspull just for the plot armor moment.

there are foreshadowing happening for weeks

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

its not really awesome. Shiro just had the right knowledge, right materials and the right skill to do the job.

its not really an aspull just for the plot armor moment.

there are foreshadowing happening for weeks

yep this is what i liked because at last here the writer is giving a proper excuse and even a possibility of this can be done by any one not just the mc, the world magic and the true world laws are more flexible than the in game laws allowing the adventures does virtually almost anything if their have the right knowledge,skill and mats.

something like a blacksmith or any other mechanical profession with the right material, skill and knowledge can create a nuclear bomb or start to create mechas, or a alchemist can create mindslave potions or love potions and things like that, the adventures are no long limited to the "basic recipes" their can create their own recipes and objects or magic, is something like every adventure account become a gm account and their gms powers are based on their class and subclass powers.

this is why shiroe dont want any one found about this cuz this easy can lead again to the chaos and endless wars between the adventures and put in danger the live of all the landers.

for now at this point the most dangerous monster in this world are the own adventures.