[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt

This one's dicey. Ryukishi07 has nothing but (well-directed) spite for people who take real tragedies and try to make mysteries out of them. Some of the goat scenes are pretty obvious digs at rumor-mongers and media circuses inside the game's universe(s), and aren't meant for the fans at all.

Other goat scenes seem to be digs directed at readers, but the whole setup's so comical that it's more like Beatrice's taunting of Battler. There's a difference between:

"My God, you people are idiots. Sheesh. What a waste."

and

"Hahaha! You're goats! YOU'RE ALL DUMB GOATS! Nyah nyah nyah!"

He's goading the readers and dodging their questions to make them keep trying, not telling them to shut up. If Ryukishi07 had really wanted to put down the readers, he'd wouldn't have bothered writing that 'answer key' in Episode 7. I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but he seems pretty tsundere towards his readers, like a cat that will not let you pet it.

Of course, he would not want people to abandon his works completely. However, what is the point of theorizing on a permanently closed catbox? His decision to dodge questions is what discourages people from trying. Why try when nothing can be confirmed? Everything is correct, the catbox is still closed. Not giving an answer is a big "f*** y**" to all of his readers who wanted the mystery.

[CrimsonMoonMist]

It's pretty crazy that he went from presenting a mystery to people,
then suddenly going 'the truth doesn't matter!' in the final episode.
Even though I was one of those who came as far as this because of the mystery
and only saw the meta segments as tools to find out more in regards to the gameboards,
I ended up feeling completely satisfied by the end of it all regardless.
It's a story for Ange to move on into the future,
and it's a problem I think many can relate to in one way or another.

It started as mystery and ended as a personal story,
and I'm perfectly fine with that.

[Azule]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Of course, he would not want people to abandon his works completely. However, what is the point of theorizing on a permanently closed catbox? His decision to dodge questions is what discourages people from trying. Why try when nothing can be confirmed? Everything is correct, the catbox is still closed. Not giving an answer is a big "f*** y**" to all of his readers who wanted the mystery.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but he never said that this was the end of Umineko. It would be pretty easy for him to produce Umineko9 or whatever alternate name he gives it, as an straightforward answer session in the future...after his goat readers have trashed the catbox.


And I think that he's releasing some form of answer booklet called Our Confessions...it's clear he knows the answer, but he doesn't want to give it up just yet.

[Jan-Poo]

He kinda said that it was the end before Episode8 was released when he said that it was going to be a closure to the series.

I see not many reasons to think the main story isn't finished especially since it's being discontinued for Higanbana. He did mention a sort of "Umineko Rei" but "Hugurashi Rei" wasn't an ending rather an addition, an expansion of sort, the ending is Matsuribayashi. So "Umineko Rei" is going to be something similar if it's ever going to be done.

Besides it would be quite ironic to see Bern and Lambda again after they parted ways by telling they'd meet again "when something else cry".

[Sajomir]

Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor

But Hachijou Ikuko had a flat chest.

...crap. This may be the simplest effective counter-argument. There's no way Battler wouldn't be reminded of his beloved's bosom.
...but Yasu did seem to be pretty good as passing herself off as someone else! Maybe that suit hides it.

I won't allow any proof or red truths to take away my warm fuzzy interpretation!

[UsagiTenpura]

Was Umineko ever Mystery to begin with?
http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html
I almost think this should somehow be included within the arcs...

[Kirroha]

Originally Posted by Sajomir

...crap. This may be the simplest effective counter-argument. There's no way Battler wouldn't be reminded of his beloved's bosom.
...but Yasu did seem to be pretty good as passing herself off as someone else! Maybe that suit hides it.

I won't allow any proof or red truths to take away my warm fuzzy interpretation!

Ryukishi said it himself that Yasu is utterly flat.

[Sajomir]

Originally Posted by Kirroha

Ryukishi said it himself that Yasu is utterly flat.

Without starting an argument, I'm simply going to pull an Ange here, and believe in their ressurection

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

Was Umineko ever Mystery to begin with?
http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html
I almost think this should somehow be included within the arcs...

To me that introduction is blatant teasing. It's like when a stage magician says "I'm going to cut this woman in half!" You are not supposed to believe him and call the police.

I think he clearly outed himself here:

Will you surrender to the witch, or stand up and face her?

"Surrender" is not something you are supposed to do in any game, and he stated Umineko was a game very often.

[Poetic Justice]

Pretty disappointing end to the series, Ryukishi just tries too hard to defy everything, The story, The readers and the expectations. I think the biggest problem is that Ryukishi doesn't respect his fanbase which is quite ironic considering he wrote that part about a mystery story being about love between the author and the reader. Somewhere along the line i think he lost sight of that.

[MainCharacter]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You know how it's implied that Rika Furude might have split into the happy Rika and Bernkastel, the witch?

Perhaps Toya and Battler are now separate people, and the latter is reunited with his loved ones in the Golden Land, to wait for Ange.

Mmm, that's definitely an easier version to swallow than the things that were popping into my head. Although it still doesn't sit well with me, it's just a minor epilogue in an overall story that I more than just love, so I can satisfied with this line of thinking, at least.

Ever since, like, Episode 5, I've been taking things from a much more literal yet metaphorical, almost anti-fantasy stance. So I tend to try and interpret how things could make sense in the most realistic context, but if I entertain the idea that the Meta World and Voyager Witches and stuff like that are real, even "in a way", then this does work. Still...

[GAtakito]

Sorry for the off topic, but did anyone find this sprite in the VN ?

Spoiler for Witch:

[MainCharacter]

No, it wasn't in there. But it's clearly meant to be ANGE Beatrice, right?

[Jan-Poo]

@GAtakito If you are asking if there is an Ange Beatrice specific portrait in the novel made by 07Expansion, no there isn't. That is a PS3 version addition.

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, I'm curious as to how that's going to be used, personally. What, does siding with everyone give her a kickass costume or something?

[CrimsonMoonMist]

My guess is that it's used after she transforms to her 18 year old self.

[Sajomir]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

To me that introduction is blatant teasing. It's like when a stage magician says "I'm going to cut this woman in half!" You are not supposed to believe him and call the police.

I think he clearly outed himself here:



"Surrender" is not something you are supposed to do in any game, and he stated Umineko was a game very often.

While I think you are 100% correct in how someone should think while in the middle of reading Umineko, you have to admit those quotes turned out to be a pretty epic troll.

(rant/theory coming up! wall of text yay)
Regarding Ryukishi07's attitude towards the goats, I don't think it's actually meant to scorn the readers. It's an in-character way of teasing us for acting like he intended to make us act. We really did turn into sheep :P

I'm sure over Higurashi's release he saw the game generate many fan theories, and he intentionally wrote Umineko to the same effect. However, all the theories centered around solving the murder, NOT on how Ange could cheat the system and come up with a happy end. Even in the preamble to the game, we are taunted that we will have to give in and admit it was a witch.

Because we assumed the murders had to take place, all the theories we gave centered around killing characters in a particular way to make the world make sense. Each time we got closer and closer to a good theory, weren't we excited?

Just imagine it from the character's point of view. We were taking pleasure in finding new ways to kill them. I thought this was a great way to show what the characters would think if they actually saw what we wrote. In that sense, it's even worse than Kinzo finding his children arguing over his inheritance - we were arguing over their lives like they had nothing to do with it.

I actually look forward to rereading some of the older chapters to see just how the goats behaved. I want to see if their characterization of the readers holds true through all the games!
I'm already thinking about the goats hunting down Rosa and Maria... for no other reason than the readers know everyone has to be dead at the end of the mystery before Battler can make a full argument with Beato. No emotion or malice, the readers expected them to die because the witch needed them dead for her puzzle. So their collective "avatar" in the game simply hunted them down.

After all, reader expectation is part of the writing in any story, especially a "mystery"

[UsagiTenpura]

"Will you surrender to the witch, or stand up and face her?" does not mean "This is a typical mystery". There's a leap of assumptions between the two.

[orangejuicetang]

Originally Posted by CrimsonMoonMist

My guess is that it's used after she transforms to her 18 year old self.

yeah, if I had to guess, that's the part where she returns to the party and tells Battler 'I understand it now, this is a a game between you and me, you're the golden and endless Beatrice of 1986, I'm the future Beatrice of Gold and Truth in 1998' part.

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

"Will you surrender to the witch, or stand up and face her?" does not mean "This is a typical mystery". There's a leap of assumptions between the two.

Yeah, not once did it come to my mind that this was a genre game until Chiru. Really, I don't think Ryukishi ever really meant it to be a Mystery novel rather Mystery is how we are supposed to tackle it.