2012-10-17, 22:09 | Link #81 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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Since the settings are high school, these often portray a guy/gal in their first romance. They are simply going to make a lot of mistakes and slack should be cut
Now, if they're 30-something and still dense as mud - then its much easier to throw tomatoes. However, in Spice&Wolf (a 30-something example) - we see the guy make mistakes but he's much more savvy in handling them. In high school, I just started walking with this one girl after math class to our next class. I was paralyzed with actually trying to ask her out. She ended up asking me out ("I need an escort to my club dinner, want to go?"). After that, it got easier.
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2012-10-18, 00:17 | Link #82 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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Yes and no. Personality is but one facet of a character, albeit an important one.
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It's orignated from the appeal of galge (including eroge) carried over to the animation medium. "wish fulfillment" and "self injection (or self representation)". Whereas, majority of such manga before that era focused on either the glamour or purely the comedic side of it.
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Last edited by aohige; 2012-10-18 at 01:59. |
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2012-10-18, 02:11 | Link #85 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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But there are few that manages to be successful while deviating from those typecast. Hakuoro from Utawarerumono, and Captain Ohgami from Sakura Taisen franchise comes to mind. They both share a similar trait of being goofy, and allowing himself to be in a tug-of-war amongst many heroines. But the difference from typical submissive reactionary harem protagonist was the fact that they were mature. Within reason, they allow girls to push them around, due to their mature, high tolerence. But they know when to set foot down when appropriate, with a commanding presense of a leader and a firm conviction. Unfortunately children protagonists are just that, children. They don't have the developed maturity of grown men like these two. I find these guys very awesome and ideal harem heroes for my taste though. I guess personally being able to relate to age-wise does play a large role. Aaaand totally 180 turn from those, I also like the complete utter magnificient bastards like Dark Schneider and Rance, because well you know, they just don't give a f***.
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2012-10-18, 03:59 | Link #86 |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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I'm a 25 year old currently working on a fairly prestigeous degree (already have my undergrade), so I don't really "self insert" and to be honest I don't think I ever did in the first place.
However, I do remember what it's like not being the cool guy and feel a certain kinship with younger guys in that position. That said, I'm kind of picky about who I like. Renji from EF: A Tale of Memories (not a harem show, but targetted to a similar audience) is my personal favourite example of the - his whole shy bookworm shota thing is really endearing. My support is not only demanded but given freely! Shingo from Mashiro-Iro symphony is another favourite - I liked his diplomatic ideals, which I connected to in the way I can't really connect with extremely masculine protagonists despite considering some of them a riot to watch. In contrast... well, Sumeragi mentions Amagami. Junichi definitely was not a favourite, as much as the show did a decent job detailing how he won over the girls he still came across to me as far, far from the best there is among quiet, seldom noticed guys. Plus, I found him too moppy.
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2012-10-18, 04:19 | Link #87 | ||||
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Frankly, that invalidates your argument here, imo. Quote:
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Most people don't like being treated like doormats, so why would we want to identify with a guy that's being treated that way? Quote:
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2012-10-18, 04:29 | Link #88 | |||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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As for SAO selling well, i don't think it's by definition a harem serie. Otherwise you can even call Fate / stay night and Accel World a harem serie. Personally I think it's popular because of it's own settings and how it's portrayed, not primarily because of the "harem elements" Quote:
Of course you don't have to be an alpha male to like something, but you can easier relate with someone if they resemble you more. Quote:
You won't likely see situations that you find in harem series happen every day in real life. So i don't think using the "realism" argument would work here. Last edited by hyl; 2012-10-18 at 04:57. Reason: typo |
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2012-10-18, 05:02 | Link #89 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
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I was going to say this earlier, but it may be worth thinking of three separate sorts of shows that could all loosely fall under the "harem anime" banner: 1. There are shounen romantic comedy "harem anime" that are basically about "one average guy + lots of attractive females = fanservice!". 2. There are shounen action series with a strong harem element, that sort of split their focus between the hero getting stronger, and the many girls that surround him. 3. There are shounen/seinen romantic comedies/dramas based on visual novels where the harem element is partly a necessity caused by converting a branching story into a linear narrative. (In the original game, it may really be 4+ separate love stories that branch from the same starting point.) The first type is most likely to have a "weaker" male lead, because that's a key element of the comedy and hijinks. The second type is most likely to have a male lead that's physically strong (or has some special abilities) because that's necessary for the action plot. The third type is more of a wildcard, and could fall at any end of the spectrum depending on the tone of the original work and the way it gets adapted into anime. People who have a strong dislike of the "weak" and "uninteresting" male leads would probably be advised to avoid the first type of show, and instead focus more on the second. Thankfully for them, there are a number of light novels that fall in the mould of the second type, and many of these have been adapted recently.
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2012-10-18, 05:26 | Link #90 |
Criminal Unrequitor
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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It's not just in anime that we have this. . . i mean this is a usual literary tactic/cliche. The normal boy is supposedly there for the reader to relate and envision himself (same vice versa) in that position. I personally think that such technique should be abandoned already (well of course unless the "normal boy/girl" archetype fits the story) since it really degrades the essence of a main character.
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2012-10-18, 05:50 | Link #91 | ||
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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Think the old Tokimeki Memorial game for why the "bland male character" kept persisting in vn-type stories. In there, the main character exists in name only (and even that is changeable). Everything he is depends on what you choose for him. At the very least, I think this is where the "bland main character" were rooted at.
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2012-10-18, 05:54 | Link #92 | ||||
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You, my friend, were the person to put the emphasis on Japanese otakus. Fair enough. And Japanese otakus apparently have no problem in supporting harem anime (or action-adventure anime with strong harem elements) that have an alpha male lead. The proof is in Sword Art Online. Now, that doesn't mean that Japanese otakus totally reject the doormat harem anime male leads either. But it does mean that having an alpha male as your harem anime male lead is not necessarily commercial suicide. In other words, arguing in favor of doormat male leads purely on the basis of economics is a very flimsy argument. If an alpha male lead can sell just as well as a doormat male lead, then choosing one or the other (or somebody between the two) should rest on something other than economic considerations. Quote:
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2012-10-18, 06:19 | Link #93 | |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
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For example, as a man, I admire Kamina's bravery so much, but I can't really identify with how he stupidly charge blindly into everything.
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2012-10-18, 06:29 | Link #94 | |
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But one thing I want to point out here is that you can do an "average guy" without him having to be an outright doormat. A good example of this is, imo, Yuichi from Kanon (Kanon 2006 sold very well, by the way). Yuichi wasn't a kickass action hero, really, but he did have a certain style and finesse to him and his interactions with the girls/women in his life. I think he was close enough to your "average guy" for viewers to identify with him, but he was also "above average" enough so that it was easy for me to accept him attracting all these girls to him. I do find that my appreciation for a harem anime (or a series with strong harem elements) goes up considerably when I feel that the question of "Why is this guy attracting so many girls to him?" has a good answer to it. The answer doesn't have to be "alpha male", but if it's "doormat", then that's not a very good answer imo.
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2012-10-18, 08:02 | Link #97 | ||||
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Plus the "doormat harem lead" is pretty common in LN's and VN's. So you actually have to blame those media instead of the anime who is merely adapting them. Quote:
That's why their later works did not have any eroge elements in them. Quote:
erneiz_hyde answered that |
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2012-10-18, 08:34 | Link #98 | ||
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Speaking about tsundere, i dont' like tsundere girls. More accurately, i hate them. They always treat people around them in crappy ways. People keep saying that tsundere are cute and adorable, but that's totally wrong. If anything, they're cruel and inhumane. They're not treating other people in crappy ways because of trauma nor mental illness but merely because of their own trashy personalities. Tsundere is the worst, and violent tsundere should just spend the rest of their life alone. |
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2012-10-18, 08:42 | Link #99 | |
reading #hikaributts
Join Date: Feb 2009
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I have no idea what your actual defintion of tsundere is, but mine is much broader than the violent ones who ended up loving the main character. My short definition is that they are people who are initially not honest to their own feelings and later up ending warming up. They have a tsun side now that will change to dere dere later. (also i joked on the last page with a screenshot of IroSeka when Kyou said that the golden ratio of tsunderes are 90% tsun and 10% dere ) They don't have to be the violent and i have seen many of them who don't resort to any kind of physical violence (like Mio from Irotoridori no sekai, who was also seen on the screenshot on the last page). Also the charms of a tsundere lies in the fact it's a form of "gap moe" (eventhough it's milder than kuuderes and yanderes) |
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2012-10-18, 08:56 | Link #100 |
Disabled By Request
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nintensalem
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For some reason I don't know how this 'silly' thread become so popular. First let's answer the OP's question:
Why does most harem anime tend to have uninteresting male leads? The answer: Because that's how the market wants! Let's see its shoujo counterpart. It just as silly as shounen ones like a plain-looking, unpopular girl who had few or no friends at all, never in relationship before ends up with some bishies. However only one of them is her 'true love', the one she ends up with in the end. I also smelled some double-standard here. I see most shoujo romance shows also have boring, uninteresting "heroine" and yet they sells. Because market wants to!! Back shounen and its evolutionary cousin seinen, some of the male harem leads have evolved. We already have some horndogs like *ahem* Makoto(School Days), that guy from High School D x D(Don't know his name and don't care about it either) and perhaps Haruka from Yosuga no Sora. In comparison to some earlier harem leads like Keitaro(Love Hina), its many steps ahead. |
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