Eden of the East - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Well, Juiz means Judge in Brazillian portuguese (I should know). It is used to refer to the referee in a number of sports, tho (not just futebol - I refuse to call it soccer, like the yanks prefer). They're sorta interchangeable terms - in that regard and in that context.

Árbitro probably wouldn't sound as good (too many R's), nor have the double meaning Juiz could be implied to have.

Ensina pra eles, Beto! Yeah, árbitro would sound like... I don't know, i totally would laugh if the phone girl's name was árbitro. It's totally messed up. Juiz is nice because of the double meaning, it's the juiz in futebol, but also the person who judg what is right and wrong... Except in this case, juiz don't judge anything... Unless she's the supporter or something like that.

[drobertbaker]

Originally Posted by Dextro

Oh came on, can't you figure out how Juiz was moved to a secure location? You really can't? She's an AI and hence she's DATA. What's the easiest way to move data from one place to another without anyone noticing? The web!!! They just uploaded the AI software to some other piece of hardware.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

nah he just transfered data... most probably. That however means there is another supercomputer like Juiz somewhere that was prepared beforehand. This Ato Saizo is pretty amazing isn't it?

Originally Posted by vaden

Could be that Juiz is just on a stack of backup tapes somewhere and not actually running, which would bring down most of the Noblesse system.

It seems like not many of the posters here actually read many of the posts.

Originally Posted by drobertbaker

The note on XII's activity from 12:17 says:

"ジュイス本体"
= Juiz　hontai
= Juiz's real form (substance)

Originally Posted by The_Dominion

If anyone is wondering how they moved the Juiz AI, then go back and look at the scene before they enter the building, with the trucks with the huge cylinders on them covered in a tarp.

THE PHYSICAL JUIZ WAS MOVED OUT ON THE TRUCKS!

Watch it again. I missed it 3 times.

[vaden]

Originally Posted by drobertbaker

THE PHYSICAL JUIZ WAS MOVED OUT ON THE TRUCKS!

... but has she been set up someplace else, or is she in cold storage (so to speak)?

[WanderingKnight]

what contradiction are you referring to? actually a well versed person in politics and finance generally ascribe their beliefs to a certain set of principles and they can usually be either socialistic leaning or capitalistic leaning.. i don't see anything in this series that is particularly capitalistic leaning so even if anything becomes contradictory it's still quite a jump to immediately tag it with the capitalistic system.

The work-related conflicts the anime describes are tightly tied to the highly extreme working culture within Japan, which is itself a subset of the way work works (ha) in a capitalistic society. The Toyotism of the post-war (Ato Saizo here) was the main root that built the whole structure (though a lot of it also has to do with the Japanese culture itself, and its history).

The contradictions are basically related to what Marx pointed out centuries ago: The accumulation of capital by a small percentage of the population in order to generate more capital; the alienation of the workers, who depend on those who control the means of production, is the main point of inference here. There's a lot of stuff here, and what this series is pointing out is merely the natural consequences of that, and it represents the discomfort of a very sizeable amount of the population. In Japan, the alienation is even more evident--though it happens in all capitalistic societies.

In a way, Japan is like seeing the natural development of the capitalistic society on steroids. It happens a lot faster and much more strongly than in most societies--but the important thing here is that it happens everywhere, be it more evident or not.

and it's also general knowledge that any social system is always a mixture of capitalistic and socialistic ideas at least in modern days, there are many conflicts of ideas in public and on the frontline-between the lawmakers.

Do you believe socialism NOT to be capitalism? That's, um, wrong. A socialist country that follows the capitalist model of accumulation of capital is still capitalistic. It's watered-down, sure, but it's still there.

Politics are nothing but a farce. There's never a conflict of ideals, there's only a conflict of interest. Obama isn't less of a ruthless capitalist because he's black and a democrat. Anyone who's expecting him to be is rather misguided.

[Jan-Poo]

THE PHYSICAL JUIZ WAS MOVED OUT ON THE TRUCKS!

Watch it again. I missed it 3 times.

I'm sorry but there isn't any definitive proof. You can say that that was Juiz but it's not like Juiz is written over it. Your theory is a possibility not a fact. Those things we have seen on the trucks could be anything.
You might be right or wrong, but I can't see how can you be 100% sure. Beside the fact that "it's something that is being carried out of the facility" do you have any other argument?

And you are wrong I read what you wrote before.

[drobertbaker]

You are a tough sell, my friend.

[izmosmolnar]

No he just played too much Umineko (lol I'm the one to talk ).

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm sorry but there isn't any definitive proof. You can say that that was Juiz but it's not like Juiz is written over it. Your theory is a possibility not a fact. Those things we have seen on the trucks could be anything.
You might be right or wrong, but I can't see how can you be 100% sure.

He's just using the Probatio diabolica here in this context, and truthfully I gotta agree with Jan-Poo.
While I agree it's a possibility that the trucks are there for that purpose, I still don't understand how the hell they distracted #2 (who as far as we know stood right on top on the Machine observing it), and replaced the Juiz Machine with a fake identical one, without him getting suspicious.
It's a possibility that #2 is actually allied with #12, and he's just deceiving #1 and #10, but I personally think that's unlikely.

[Jan-Poo]

If the events in this anime proved to be 100% logic I'd say that drobertbaker is most probably wrong.

It is clear that Mononobe and the others have been inside Juiz already in the past. If there was something missing, I'm sure they would notice. So what is that thing they believe is Juiz? That could be a fake. But if that was a fake, whose purpose was to prevent a take over (whom Ato Saizo predicted), then why the real Juiz was stored in the same place?
That doesn't make sense.
If it was a substitution it makes even less sense. How is that that II and X who where there didn't notice anything? And how could they create a fake Juiz that quickly? Unless the fake was already prepared, but then I still don't get why Ato saizo wouldn't have put the fake in place since the beginning and stored Juiz in a more hidden location.

However I do not think this anime is 100% rational. See the Ohsugi rapist mix and the many coincidences, or the phones that conveniently beep when there's something plot relevant, or the "black swan" trick pulled by Diana.

So considering all this the probability that drobertbaker is right might be 60% or even more.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by drobertbaker

It seems like not many of the posters here actually read many of the posts.


THE PHYSICAL JUIZ WAS MOVED OUT ON THE TRUCKS!

Watch it again. I missed it 3 times.

I think that juiz also has a human operator, the cutie that brought the empty bottle is probably the one. Someone had to have answered the phone when #1 asked for the champane and when he did Juiz was already in transit.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Do you believe socialism NOT to be capitalism? That's, um, wrong. A socialist country that follows the capitalist model of accumulation of capital is still capitalistic. It's watered-down, sure, but it's still there.

Politics are nothing but a farce. There's never a conflict of ideals, there's only a conflict of interest. Obama isn't less of a ruthless capitalist because he's black and a democrat. Anyone who's expecting him to be is rather misguided.

exactly! the diference between Socialism and Capitalism is that in a Socialist set up, the government doesn't trust the masses with capitalism. socialists believe that only the government is smart enough to handle the Money. The problem with that is that there is always richer people and the wealth is never equaly distributed. I would love for real socialism to exist where EVERYONE is the same, but that is just a dream.

[MeoTwister5]

Edit - Oh god wrong thread.

[SkoolRumble4Ya]

Wait so Juiz is real but how can she answer to the all the selecao and who exactly ordered to move Juiz?

[golthin]

Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya

Wait so Juiz is real but how can she answer to the all the selecao and who exactly ordered to move Juiz?

the real juiz is a computer system, there seem to be a woman that Juiz was based on. it would make sense that she can fill in when the real juiz becomes unavailable, like in this case, when juiz real body was being moved.

[Azuma Denton]

Or maybe...

That woman is the one that holds Juiz activation code...
Or she is the one who can operate Juiz system...

[orion]

Originally Posted by golthin

the real juiz is a computer system, there seem to be a woman that Juiz was based on. it would make sense that she can fill in when the real juiz becomes unavailable, like in this case, when juiz real body was being moved.

That's what I think happened also. The real Juiz (Juiz AI) was down for the move and human Juiz was substituting. That's why Juiz answered with No. I's real name. Juiz AI didn't do that before IIRC.

Maybe the Juiz in the Ato lab wasn't the real Juiz but the fake Juiz with some sort of a router and supplementary hardware that made everyone believe it was the real Juiz. The pnly thing that Juiz had to do was cut the link and yank out the supplementary hardware. Not all the trucks had to be used. It could be 2 decoys plus 1 real truck.

[drobertbaker]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

He's just using the Probatio diabolica here in this context, and truthfully I gotta agree with Jan-Poo.

He did that... in public? That bastard!!

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So considering all this the probability that drobertbaker is right might be 60% or even more.

I'm gaining!

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm sorry but there isn't any definitive proof. You can say that that was Juiz but it's not like Juiz is written over it.

Honestly, some people you just have to hit over the head!!

Here's the trucks rolling by... with the big cylinders... the same size as the holes in the building. This cap is taken totally unretouched directly from the original Japanese broadcast. Note the large Juiz written over it:


Here's an image of the truck's license plate blown up 50 times:


And here's the computer enhanced license plate:


There! Now are you convinced???

[golthin]

Originally Posted by orion

That's what I think happened also. The real Juiz (Juiz AI) was down for the move and human Juiz was substituting. That's why Juiz answered with No. I's real name. Juiz AI didn't do that before IIRC.

good catch, i didn't notice that but yes the Juiz (Juiz AI) doesn't call the people by their name.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by drobertbaker

He did that... in public? That bastard!!I'm gaining!Honestly, some people you just have to hit over the head!!

Here's the trucks rolling by... with the big cylinders... the same size as the holes in the building. This cap is taken totally unretouched directly from the original Japanese broadcast. Note the large Juiz written over it:


Here's an image of the truck's license plate blown up 50 times:


And here's the computer enhanced license plate:


There! Now are you convinced???

Lol... pretty convincing!

[Ottocycle]

drobertbaker: wow your proof 3 posts above let me laugh my heart out.

For the record I still think that it is entirely possible for those cylinders to be Juiz though, since there's no point in putting 2 seconds of airtime on them if they weren't.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah might be, but I still wonder why Mononobe didn't even gave them a quick look if such kind of transportation wasn't done as a regular basis in that facility. They did catch Akira's attention.