Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[Dragonkid11]

Just wondering....where did all the laser guided concrete bomb go?

Seeing how laser class kept shooting down bombs and shells with ridiculous accurate,I would assume that rock that are more heat resistance than most explosive should give the laser classes a proper death from above.And considering that the number of laser-classes are just in dozens rather than tens of thousands,it's easier to wipe them out.

Laser guided concrete bomb exist IRL.And they are real cheap.

[wavehawk]

You'd still need to make a lot of bombs to hit that bunch of Laser-class. So much so that it's probably not worth the cost of making that many.

Plus, BETA aren't -completely- stupid. They've been known to hold out on Laser class deployment until after bombardment is complete. And throw in that tunnelling large Carrier BETA to move them (and the rest) underground fast enough. You can't probably transport that much firepower from one spot to the other quickly enough.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

There are precise munitions in Muv-Luv; for example the AIM-54 is a GPS guided, precision, cluster-warhead cruise missile. So I imagine that other examples do exist.

Thing is, their extensive costs mean that it's relatively cost-inefficient to use them on a big enough scale that would cause a visible difference in the war.

As for the TSFs swinging around its own engines, I don't think that's really possible without some serious modifications to the areas where the engines are attached to the TSF. A whole TSF rotating creates much more weight/force to withstand than engines turning around TSF.

I do think that in it's very basis the maneuver is theoretically possible, given that most 3rd Gen. machines are either aerodynamically unstable or have thrust vectoring; or both. But the TSF would probably crash right after, or it's engines would fly off without it as far as the parts are concerned.

[wavehawk]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

As for the TSFs swinging around its own engines, I don't think that's really possible without some serious modifications to the areas where the engines are attached to the TSF. A whole TSF rotating creates much more weight/force to withstand than engines turning around TSF.

I do think that in it's very basis the maneuver is theoretically possible, given that most 3rd Gen. machines are either aerodynamically unstable or have thrust vectoring; or both. But the TSF would probably crash right after, or it's engines would fly off without it as far as the parts are concerned.

- That's good enough for me--as long as it's plausible and either not impossible or not common, it's a good enough yet radical enough idea to try out.

[LystAP]

Real world prototype artificial Laser-class.

http://news.yahoo.com/navys-laser-we...215808231.html

[willyvereb]

Well, actually S-11s are stupidly powerful.
Capable of vaporizing the flesh of hundreds of thousands of BETA.
Even if we assume 100% efficient heat conversion there that would mean megatons of energy.
Yet the inner walls of a Hive can withstand half dozen of these before collapsing.
Even if you abuse a structural weak point in the wall, you'd need two of these high megaton range S-11 devices to do their job.
Aside from those island-wiping G Bombs, I don't think using strategic weapons against a developed Hive would be a smart idea.
Actually the Yokohama Hive required two G Bombs, with the first one failing to even destroy the monument entirely.
Even after the second bomb the majority of the Hive remained operational, including a reactor.
And we're speaking about a Phase 4 Hive here (with a small Phase 2 monument).
And how powerful these G Bombs were?
Youko estimated the self-destruction of the Susanoo II to be 20 times as powerful as the bomb dropped on Yokohama.
Said self-destruction wiped the Sado Island completely off the map and generated supersonic Tsunami waves that flooded even areas 20 kilometers inland.
Even with the most conservative calculations I measured that requiring hundreds of gigatons of yield.
Not even counting the secondary effects with the Tsunami there.
The Yokohama Hive took one-tenth of this power and remained operable.
Even if vulnerable for a follow-up assault.
No wonder Operation Babylon made the entire Earth a wreck.

Originally Posted by Dragonkid11

Just wondering....where did all the laser guided concrete bomb go?

Not sure what good that would do, given that the Lux has stupidly powerful lasers.
Heavy lasers are strong enough to instantly vaporize thousands of tons of steel or whatever armor material the HSSTs are made of. About 5 kilotons of pure heat energy.
Said lasers can last for 12 seconds.
No wonder the Laser Class require G elements to produce.
Regular Lux are a bit weaker than the Magnus Lux but they'd still instantenously generate energies well-superior to a MOAB.
You'd have to drop a literal mountains of concrete for even a remote chance of success.

In face of this you may have to raise an eyebrow how producing heavy metal clouds would be of any help against these.
But then I suppose those AL shells must contain something similar to the material of anti-laser coating.
Because AL coating can withstand lasers for seconds.

Originally Posted by wavehawk

How accurate are the trgetting computers on the battleships? EG are they able to do 'Danger Close' (EG right in front of your nose) fire on areas with TSFs in them? Based on what I've seen so far, the answer is no, but---just how close can you target BETA within range of friendlies?

Accurate enough to at least target a maybe 10 meter wide area from space (the monument of a Hive).
Albeit orbital bombardment generally concentrates on saturation fire instead of precision.
As seen with the example of the Sadogashima Hive, BETA are so numerous they can literally fill the island.
The fact Sadogashima's laser classes can basically nullify 90% of the first barrage of the combined Pacific space and navy fleet (before AL shells lessen their power) doesn't help.
(and hell, they did it while the BETA had more than half of their laser classes in reserve)

There's also the experimental 1200mm THC (Trans-Horizon or Over the Horizon Cannon), which is a (multi-)multi-stage cannon that shoots 1.2m shells at the distance over hundreds if not many thousands of kilometers.
It was developed to bombard BETA from afar with equipment which can be used by TSFs (even if as a stationary weapon).
With skilled marksmen it's even capable of shooting down a HSST from 500 kilometers while the said object was on a suicide run to approach the base with Mach 15 speed.

Those are the best feats I know.
Muv Luv humanity is also somehow able to coordinate their nuclear ICBMs to shoot down any new Hive ship the BETA may try to land.
That means concentrating multiple nukes and making them hit a circa 50 meter wide target with all of them at once.
Said target crashing down at meteor-like speeds.

In conclusion they are definitely better than our modern world.
But well, still not the "magic bullet" level of accuracy.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Exactly what is the US' combat doctrine against the BETA?

Since everybody else seems to fall into CQC how do the US fair in ranged combat? With the laser class that would be difficult wouldn't it?

G-Bombing the hell out of them and everything else.
Strategic bombardment seems to be the only thing in the US's mind against BETA.
Well, aside from using the military of other nations to shield them.
There are likely some US TSF squadrons that saw BETA in combat but even those are mostly consist of immigrants and foreigners.
As I said, the US in Muv Luv prefers to leave the war to other nations.

Originally Posted by timtiang

Why don't they just put nuclear mines in the ground. wait for the horde to pass by it. When laser class is under those mines. Boom. Air Force comes swooping in killing the rest of the BETA
Victory.

Well, that's more or less what the US prepared for Alaska.
http://muvluv.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Shift

The Soviets also nuked a good portion of Asia to stall the BETA before the Laser Classes made that tactic useless (it only helped to separate the Soviet forces and making them fight at two isolated fronts at once, with no chance of either supporting the other).
G-Bombs can work due to many reasons but considering what happens after their massed use in Operation Babylon, I don't think that's a safe bet, either.

As for why not load S-11 into artillery.
Well, that'd be because these devices are most likely very expensive.
I mean the entire Yokohama Base only had some dozens of them.
Literally the only time they can allow the luxury to use these is when they send TSFs to infiltrate a Hive.
Because they're rare it's the best to make every one of these S-11s count.
There's possibly also the fact that these S-11s seems to be rather heavy.
Enough to affect a TSF's speed and mobility to a degree.
We're talking about machines that weigh hundreds of tons and spray amunition worth hundreds of kilos on a regular basis.
Most likely each of those S-11s weigh many tons.
So fitting these into artillery shells might be not feasible.
Albeit that didn't stop the Susanoo IV to use these as improvised anti-bunker missiles.
Speaking of which, it suggests that in extreme cases the humans can develop tactical weapons even better than the S-11.
Most likely these are really-really cost-ineffective.
Enough to make the S-11s a cheap alternative.

Originally Posted by Sinestra

How do the BETA's ocular nerves work, what light spectrum do they see in there are tons of "what ifs" in regards to the BETA. Would the Raptors stealth counter the BETA's laser class. When one points out stealth i hardly find it a worthy discussion unless you address how an alien enemy (which no ones seems to know about) perceives light.

I don't think the BETA are even capable of sight.
Some of them even lack the sense of hearing and smell (enough that the larger types almost completely ignore humans).
On the other hand they have some sort of abstract way to "sense" powerful computers and technology from at least many kilometers if occasionally not more.
So yeah, the Raptor's stealth is completely useless against BETA.
It was purely made to combat other TSFs after Operation Babylon.

Originally Posted by YF19EX

If you can technological develop mecha, surely energy weapons should not be that far off.

Yes, Yuuko mentions that sometime in Alternative that 5 years in the future they might be fielding TSFs with practice cannons or even more effective weapons.

Also there's the Hi-MAERF project from the 70s that had a stupidly powerful particle cannon, capable of destroying a Hive with its shots.
Granted, said particle cannon was powered by the excess energies of the G Element extensive Moorcock-Lechte engine but still...
Based on Yuuko's comments it's possible that humans will develop energy weapons independent of BETA materials.

[Dragonkid11]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Well, actually S-11s are stupidly powerful.
Capable of vaporizing the flesh of hundreds of thousands of BETA.
Even if we assume 100% efficient heat conversion there that would mean megatons of energy.
Yet the inner walls of a Hive can withstand half dozen of these before collapsing.
Even if you abuse a structural weak point in the wall, you'd need two of these high megaton range S-11 devices to do their job.
Aside from those island-wiping G Bombs, I don't think using strategic weapons against a developed Hive would be a smart idea.
Actually the Yokohama Hive required two G Bombs, with the first one failing to even destroy the monument entirely.
Even after the second bomb the majority of the Hive remained operational, including a reactor.
And we're speaking about a Phase 4 Hive here (with a small Phase 2 monument).
And how powerful these G Bombs were?
Youko estimated the self-destruction of the Susanoo II to be 20 times as powerful as the bomb dropped on Yokohama.
Said self-destruction wiped the Sado Island completely off the map and generated supersonic Tsunami waves that flooded even areas 20 kilometers inland.
Even with the most conservative calculations I measured that requiring hundreds of gigatons of yield.
Not even counting the secondary effects with the Tsunami there.
The Yokohama Hive took one-tenth of this power and remained operable.
Even if vulnerable for a follow-up assault.
No wonder Operation Babylon made the entire Earth a wreck.

Now it make me wonder how the hell orbital divers managed to pierce through the monument even with such ridiculous velocity and the kinetic energy generated from such speed would most likely crush the TSF into metal paste.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Not sure what good that would do, given that the Lux has stupidly powerful lasers.
Heavy lasers are strong enough to instantly vaporize thousands of tons of steel or whatever armor material the HSSTs are made of. About 5 kilotons of pure heat energy.
Said lasers can last for 12 seconds.
No wonder the Laser Class require G elements to produce.
Regular Lux are a bit weaker than the Magnus Lux but they'd still instantenously generate energies well-superior to a MOAB.
You'd have to drop a literal mountains of concrete for even a remote chance of success.

I would say that the lasers are aiming for the fuel rather than literally vaporizing the HSST into nothing.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

In face of this you may have to raise an eyebrow how producing heavy metal clouds would be of any help against these.
But then I suppose those AL shells must contain something similar to the material of anti-laser coating.
Because AL coating can withstand lasers for seconds.

The heavy metal cloud doesn't block the laser,but refract the laser to harmless light...well,mostly harmless if there's no infantry nearby or they would get fried from the sheer heat.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

As for why not load S-11 into artillery.
Well, that'd be because these devices are most likely very expensive.
I mean the entire Yokohama Base only had some dozens of them.
Literally the only time they can allow the luxury to use these is when they send TSFs to infiltrate a Hive.
Because they're rare it's the best to make every one of these S-11s count.
There's possibly also the fact that these S-11s seems to be rather heavy.
Enough to affect a TSF's speed and mobility to a degree.
We're talking about machines that weigh hundreds of tons and spray amunition worth hundreds of kilos on a regular basis.
Most likely each of those S-11s weigh many tons.
So fitting these into artillery shells might be not feasible.
Albeit that didn't stop the Susanoo IV to use these as improvised anti-bunker missiles.
Speaking of which, it suggests that in extreme cases the humans can develop tactical weapons even better than the S-11.
Most likely these are really-really cost-ineffective.
Enough to make the S-11s a cheap alternative.

Human in Muvluv can make spacecraft,giant robot,NUKE-firing space defense system that are all made out of a magical carbon material that's most likely carbon nano tube with is difficult as hell to made IRL but they cannot make factory that pump out super conventional bomb at a rather fast rate?I'm rather skeptical at the last part...

Originally Posted by willyvereb

I don't think the BETA are even capable of sight.
Some of them even lack the sense of hearing and smell (enough that the larger types almost completely ignore humans).
On the other hand they have some sort of abstract way to "sense" powerful computers and technology from at least many kilometers if occasionally not more.
So yeah, the Raptor's stealth is completely useless against BETA.
It was purely made to combat other TSFs after Operation Babylon.

I theorizes that larger BETA strain "see" things by sensing electricity,like most carnivorous aquatic creatures...well...BETA is a starfish alien so I guess you can say that it's more literal than you think.This would make them pay more attention to TSF because electricity used by TSF is way more than those used by the human bodies to control limbs and organs.This would also allow them to triangulate their position by using the ridiculous electrical energy generated by the reactor strain to find out where are them even without sight.They might even have a special organ which allow them to communicate with their leader by generating electricity in different voltage and current just like a alien Morse code.

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Yes, Yuuko mentions that sometime in Alternative that 5 years in the future they might be fielding TSFs with practice cannons or even more effective weapons.

Also there's the Hi-MAERF project from the 70s that had a stupidly powerful particle cannon, capable of destroying a Hive with its shots.
Granted, said particle cannon was powered by the excess energies of the G Element extensive Moorcock-Lechte engine but still...
Based on Yuuko's comments it's possible that humans will develop energy weapons independent of BETA materials.

Nothing to say here,except for the fact that this small thing would greatly improve my crossover fic for a little surprise.

[Wild Goose]

Plenty of stuff there and I'm in a hurry, but I'd just note that based on the Bikini Atoll tests, I wouldn't class the S-11s as being in the megaton range, or the XG-70b's self destruct as being in the gigaton range; a blast capable of destroying an island the size of Sadogashima is perfectly achievable in the megaton range (IIRC it was calced at I think 2 megatons or so, but I can't remember and I need to check back with my source).

Also I disagree that TSFs weigh hundreds of tons, given that if they weighed that much, the Avenger gatling should have no recoil issues with the A-10, and TSFs shouldn't get tossed into the air by Destroyers. I figure they weigh around 30-50 tons at the high side. Also, I doubt that the TSF shells weigh hundreds of kilograms; 30mm HEDP used by the Apache's chaingun weighs 300 grams, while the 30mm API used by the A-10 weighs about 760 grams or so (I did some prior thinking on this). Assuming a weight of 450 grams (ballpark figure), each magazine of ammo weighs 900kg, so a full load will be 10.8 metric tons, which is not really that bad when you consider modern combat loads. Say another 5 tons of fuel, add maybe 2 tons for the guns (I personally think this is a bit much) and that's 17 tons of stores; assume an average 20-ton empty weight based on size and how TSFs are based off aircraft, and you're looking at something between 37-40 tons max takeoff weight, which is still not too bad and is more or less akin to modern aircraft.

I really have no idea where you guys keep getting the "TSFs weigh hundreds of tons!" idea from. Also, logically, a pair of turbofans are going to have trouble keeping a hundred-ton TSF up in the air.

As for the lack of S-11 artillery, it might be due to the fact that Laser-class BETA render artillery batteries pointless, as the BETA's laser can intercept artillery fires with near-perfect accuracy, and many artillery batteries will be rendered combat-ineffective due to running out of ammo before the BETA run out of laserhax.

This is why Laserjagd doctrine was so crucial for the NVA in the 80s.

[Fireminer]

Ok, this might sound stupid, but had anyone consider Biological or Chemical Weapon? I mean that some of the BETA strains (like Soldier-class) are just recycled corpses with a primitive mind. So I guess that their immune system aren't fully developed like a human (a child had to put up with diseases the moment he was born). But maybe these weapon would also be useless soon, consider their rapid production speed could help them develop resistance, like virus to vaccines.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

They're not recycled corpses in the same manner as zombies, or Infested Terrans of Starcraft. They're essentially new organisms, that are based upon certain human structures, but their internal morphology (is that the term?) is quite different.

To elaborate, BETAs are a result of very, very advanced engineering - they don't have to be made from corpses, just basic carbon itself. The way I understood Superior, BETA collect human corpses, and then break them down into basic carbon elements, which are then used to form other BETA strains.

Another thing, is that we had seen BETAs on the lunar surface, which means they don't need to breathe (eliminating the common attack vector of most combat gasses), and can survive extraordinary amount of lethal cosmic radiation. This means that most WMDs are largely ineffective against BETAs, which is what Yuuko implies to have happened when USSR tried to use its huge WMD stockpile on them - it had virtually no effect, besides forcing Soviets further and further back, because they destroyed their own country.

So Biological and Chemical weapons (along with nukes), are simply impractical, especially since there's a big chance they they could also affect the dwindling human population.

[Fireminer]

Ok, then do you think it could work if we loaded a armored car with explosive and bullets and let it ram into the middle of the pack and detonate? Just have got the idea from C&C RA2!
Anyway, what do you guy think of the economy? War-time Ration policy? Domestic trade like a few peaceful countries?
Also, guess that human's technology has been set back a few decades, or not in the way we know.

[wavehawk]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Ok, then do you think it could work if we loaded a armored car

- Tank-class would be all over it at the font of the attack. You'd wipe out part of the first line of BETA but no way in hell will that car get to the center before detonating.

And yes, technically most places have wartime rationing--thus the artificail/synthetic foods. It's mentioned in Total Eclipse that real food (EG real steak from cows) is expensive and rare IN THE US, which is not as directly affected by BETA as other countries. I woudl imagine other places it'd be worse. And In TDA there's cannibalism.

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

Such cars are too inefficient and expensive to be useful as weapons, especially since you can use the TSFs 120mm cannons to the same effect (by comparison, the largest-caliber gun on AC-130 is 105 mm.)

Additionally, they'd have to be driven either by suicidal maniacs (pilots are a resource too), or have a complicated remote-guidance system (which would make them too expensive to field en-masse)

[Fireminer]

Thanks! That certain "action" of Tatsunami is actually quite normal (for that situation). At least it didn't broke him down.
And anyway to intercept signals from the Superior to its minions?

[John117xCortana]

Originally Posted by Alastor Mobius Toth

They're not recycled corpses in the same manner as zombies, or Infested Terrans of Starcraft. They're essentially new organisms, that are based upon certain human structures, but their internal morphology (is that the term?) is quite different.

To elaborate, BETAs are a result of very, very advanced engineering - they don't have to be made from corpses, just basic carbon itself. The way I understood Superior, BETA collect human corpses, and then break them down into basic carbon elements, which are then used to form other BETA strains.

Another thing, is that we had seen BETAs on the lunar surface, which means they don't need to breathe (eliminating the common attack vector of most combat gasses), and can survive extraordinary amount of lethal cosmic radiation. This means that most WMDs are largely ineffective against BETAs, which is what Yuuko implies to have happened when USSR tried to use its huge WMD stockpile on them - it had virtually no effect, besides forcing Soviets further and further back, because they destroyed their own country.

So Biological and Chemical weapons (along with nukes), are simply impractical, especially since there's a big chance they they could also affect the dwindling human population.

Not even white phosphorous?

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

@Fireminer

We don't really know how Superior sends its commands, so we can't really intercept them.

@John

I imagine that white phosphorous is only effective as other flammable ordinance (i.e napalm) - since BETAs can't breathe, they can't get their lungs massacred in the same way phosphorous does to humans. Canon-wise though, white phosphorous is never mentioned, so it's likely that no-one uses it in sufficient numbers to gather any notice.

[Fireminer]

Wait, if BETA don't breathe, then how do they consume energy from in the first place? If they use carbon material, then the process of breaking the substance require oxi (or something like Sunfur,...). Hydrogen? Maybe, but no real evidence. Photosynthesis? The hive core is the power station, while the BETA is some sort of battery?

[wavehawk]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Wait, if BETA don't breathe, then how do they consume energy from in the first place?

- Reactor BETA back at the Hive.

[Fireminer]

Originally Posted by wavehawk

- Reactor BETA back at the Hive.

So what mean do they store energy and deliver them? And does this mean a BETA would die if seperating from the reactor too long?

[Seitsuki]

Something similar to that. Remember the BETA that attacked Yokohama base needed to replenish their energy off the reactor there after the loss of Sadogashima.