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Old 2016-10-06, 19:34   Link #81
SleepingTerror
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Originally Posted by HirouKeimou View Post
As I said, if she could be only a supporting character, remove love triangle dynamics, maybe you'd feel differently about this subject; after all, side characters require less screen time for development because they're not overall important for the plot. However, because she's an MC and is one of the main trio, your disappointment is higher.
You're right, and I totally forgot about the many times she saved Freyja, and let's face it, not everyone can have the spotlight. I still think she got shafted, and I think the series as a whole could have been a lot better if Mirage was the narrator. Many works of fiction are told from the POV of a seemingly insignificant character, and as result, can become more heart-clenching.
My reasoning behind her not having much growth is because of Herman's comment on her flying in one of the later episodes (when they were tried by the Windermere court). He basically told her that she still wasn't flying well, and that was a "wtf" moment for me.
As for growth as a character and not a pilot, really, all it seems to me is she's not angry all the time as she was portrayed in the first episode. And they could have done a much better job allowing her to recover from feelings of inferiority. It bothered me how easily she accepted her place under Hayate. Similar to how it bothered me how Kaname accepted her place under Mikumo.
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Old 2016-10-06, 19:36   Link #82
Father Hentai
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Mirage development is to open her heart. Plain and simple. When she opened her heart the first time, she had to face Hayate who was pointing at his gun at her in his VF. There was some desperation in her but this strong emotion allowed her to foresee his move and was able to use some fold power.

In the last episode when she truly confessed, she has "awoken" (she had a purpley shining around her also) and is now the second person to tap into fold without going berserk through var. This makes second pilot being able to use fold boost and makes her again superior in terms of fighting skills compared to Hayate. But when they fly it's not about who is more superior but to fly together. Since both their planes were fold boosted, her development has completed. She syncs with both Hayate and Freyjas song, making Hayate and herself Freyjas wings.

Now it seems the development path is a bit reversed with her. She had reached everything basically in her career and the small thing that missed was heart.

And I would go that far that she is already an ace pilot after Messer. I would not consider Hayate an ace pilot until the last episodes but due to most of his training with Mirage he caught up quite good.

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Originally Posted by SleepingTerror View Post
My reasoning behind her not having much growth is because of Herman's comment on her flying in one of the later episodes (when they were tried by the Windermere court). He basically told her that she still wasn't flying well, and that was a "wtf" moment for me.
Actually Herman made a compliment. Hermann said, she already flies good but with a clear mind, she would fly like Keith, or other who can use fold boost/wind. There aren't much humanoids who can use the wind who aren't windermere, berserk or like Hayate.
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Old 2016-10-06, 19:52   Link #83
HirouKeimou
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Originally Posted by SleepingTerror View Post
I totally forgot about the many times she saved Freyja
Messar had a similar role of saving Hayate, Mirage, and Chuck in his episodes prior to dying, and he's a side character who developed a bit in his small time frame.

For Frontier, Micheal is the first character who comes to mind who is a side character whose role is basically comic relief until his bigger issues are hit upon later on (his sister issue, childhood crush on Klan); he dies later on in the series, though, so he basically served as a moral compass for Alto who didn't know where his heart laid beyond loving the sky.

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My reasoning behind her not having much growth is because of Herman's comment on her flying in one of the later episodes (when they were tried by the Windermere court). He basically told her that she still wasn't flying well, and that was a "wtf" moment for me.
I agree.
And Thess said it, too, on said episode discussion thread.

Their rivalry is written in last minute.
The rivalry for Keith and Hayate is also problematic because it's introduced in episode 13 and is brushed aside for a majority of the series. There isn't even a real dogfight for Keith and Hayate beyond the little tidbit of one in episode 13, and nothing close to his dogfight with Messar.

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As for growth as a character and not a pilot, really, all it seems to me is she's not angry all the time as she was portrayed in the first episode. And they could have done a much better job allowing her to recover from feelings of inferiority. It bothered me how easily she accepted her place under Hayate. Similar to how it bothered me how Kaname accepted her place under Mikumo.
She held onto this anger for four episodes, remember. She gradually grew into accepting him into her class, chased him all over when he avoided her instructions, and scolded him for flying off course in episode 4. Of course, she calmed down because of episode 6: Hayate killed a person for her, in order to save her (however, he did not kill him, Hermann saves him in the nick of time). Once Messar dies, Mirage grabs his role and is bombarded by responsibility she did not have prior, and is more confident in admitting she is not special or has abilities like Hayate (or Freyja) to accomplish her dreams like he did.

The growth is there in how she notices those around her developing. As I said, Hayate and Freyja chasing their dreams full-throttle inspired Mirage into realizing how she loves flying because he is with her and she has Freyja singing to help her along, too. It's less about Mirage growing as an individual, it's about her learning she's not alone in her adventure, she's got others here who are willing to help compensate for her faults.

@Father_Hentai: Good post.
I agree with it; it's a different explanation of her character than I could express; however, it's true.
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Old 2016-10-06, 20:01   Link #84
Father Hentai
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Thanks. While I think others will still disagree that her character development is actually fine in terms of showing her growth, I'd answer that the series were too short and Hayate and Freyja were more in focus. We can only hope they pimp her character a bit if they will ever bring out a movie of delta.
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Old 2016-10-06, 20:37   Link #85
HirouKeimou
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Thanks. While I think others will still disagree that her character development is actually fine in terms of showing her growth, I'd answer that the series were too short and Hayate and Freyja were more in focus. We can only hope they pimp her character a bit if they will ever bring out a movie of delta.
I agree.
During its air, I missed a number of her developments because obviously I viewed weekly and life happened; however, re-watching it has shown how she does grows as a character regardless of her role in the love triangle. The issue is, she is not shown as an MC in terms of screen time; however, I believe her role is even more so important for the other two MC in their growth.

People continuously dismiss this because we're insisting she's not big in the "love triangle," which is real bull because there is a number of areas where Freyja shippers logically believed she had a pull on him; because he hugged her in episode 13, held her hand in episode 19, and oh yes she confessed love and received an individual panel for him only in episode 20, and also she hugs him with her Valkyrie in episode 22; so it's not a "she's not big in the love triangle" thing, it's how little she contributes to her side of it which equates to it. Because, you know, thing is: Hayate is into Freyja, it's obvious how oblivious he is to this but Mirage picks it up, knows her chances are small but love is unpredictable; it's how her falling in love with him helps her grow as a person to admitting she fell into an unrequited love and is stronger for it because she learned how to overcome it and be a bigger person who supports her friends' happiness.

I liked her resolution in the love triangle because for once in a Macross, it's a genuine sign off from an unrequited love which feels like a character is resolved or strengthened by her loss. In fact, her loss is a lot similar to Minmei, who genuinely in DYRL conceded loss and basically implied "we're all still friends, right?" in her final scene, which is how Mirage's signing off by confessing her feelings and enforcing Freyja into her admission, too, is done also; especially by her holding her helmet and looking at her friends going off in the sky, shedding a single tear. It's a powerful scene, really...

Hopefully, if there is a movie, she'll be dropped from the love triangle because I'd like for her shine to be less because of "falling in love" with Hayate and more because she "adores his style of flying" (a.k.a. admiration vs. crush). And I'd like her to bond a little more with Freyja, of which she'll learn more about her homeland and culture (a missed opportunity in episode 23). Then again, I'd also like for Mikumo to be a little more focused on aside from "mysterious diva" for the first half. There's a list of things I'd love for more focus to go towards in a movie but I'll save it in hopes of if a movie does come and I'll post my hopes in a respective thread for it if it is announced. For now, I only hope for a movie adaption.
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Old 2016-10-06, 20:51   Link #86
SleepingTerror
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I liked her resolution in the love triangle because for once in a Macross, it's a genuine sign off from an unrequited love which feels like a character is resolved or strengthened by her loss.
As do I. Also how I felt with Ranka at the end of Sayonara no Tsubasa. What I liked about that movie is that despite seeing my girl get her heart broken, she got the final words. I think Mirage should have gotten that as well.
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Old 2016-10-06, 21:17   Link #87
HirouKeimou
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As do I. Also how I felt with Ranka at the end of Sayonara no Tsubasa. What I liked about that movie is that despite seeing my girl get her heart broken, she got the final words. I think Mirage should have gotten that as well.
My bitterness for Ranka is because of the TV resolution; not because it's "open-ended" for resolution; it's because Ranka basically signs herself off in episode 21 because of her choice in her overall plot. Basically, I disliked how she's forced to sign off her role in the love triangle and feelings for Alto in favor of the bigger picture and because it's half about her feelings for Alto, fans disregard her actions, so it's kind of aggravating. Plus, once she's home, Alto and Sheryl are basically an item so it's like "love triangle, really?" because she's gone for like 4 episodes of screen time.

Mirage has an advantage in her corner because she's always around for all 26 episodes and is consistent in her supporting of Hayate in general which helped her in this area. How she loses the triangle is chopped up to "he's been into Freyja since day one because she inspired him, changed his life, and blah blah is basically his destiny."

All I like as irony on Mirage's side is how she foreshadows this because she brings up her grandparents in episode 3 and compares Freyja's relationship with Hayate to them.

And Mirage basically did say her piece: When Hayate thanks her in battle, Mirage basically says "save it for later." So she's resolved her feelings for him and is okay moving on. As for if he downright rejected her, I'll save my consideration on it for the Blu-ray release because it's likely we'll receive longer scenes for areas of the final episode.
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Old 2016-10-06, 21:56   Link #88
SleepingTerror
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And Mirage basically did say her piece: When Hayate thanks her in battle, Mirage basically says "save it for later." So she's resolved her feelings for him and is okay moving on. As for if he downright rejected her, I'll save my consideration on it for the Blu-ray release because it's likely we'll receive longer scenes for areas of the final episode.
This goes back to my wishing that Mirage was the narrator - I want to know her feelings, her final feelings. We easily assume what they are, but I want to hear them. Yeah, I like Freyja more than Mirage, and I'm glad they didn't pull tradition on us, but I still feel unsatisfied because she deserves more.
As for the end of the triangle in Macross Frontier, I was spoiled so I knew Sheryl was going to win.. It was hard watching Ranka be happy around Alto and knowing she was going to lose, but ultimately Sheryl's connection with Alto ran deeper. So I don't know who had a better chance, Ranka or Mirage, but I definitely liked Ranka's end of the deal more.
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Old 2016-10-06, 22:29   Link #89
HirouKeimou
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Yeah, I like Freyja more than Mirage, and I'm glad they didn't pull tradition on us, but I still feel unsatisfied because she deserves more.
This is something I believe people are confused upon for Macross, because old-time fans don't believe she did; however, she did do it.

Because "tradition" for the love triangle winner is for the mature girl, as in "who is an adult via maturity" more than "who is older physically." Every character in the love triangles prior (aside from Zero) always had a year difference in their ages, even for Frontier. The immature (or childish/selfish) girl never wins because she's not old enough for him mentally. The mature (or adult/selfless/confident) girl always wins in this regard.

For Mirage, she is the one with her head on straight, is all about her job, is serious about herself; all she's missing is self-confidence. For Freyja, she is the one who is living in the clouds, is full of childish dreams, is full of energy, is brash and hotheaded, is self-confident in herself; all she's missing is ability to deal with adult issues like drama. In this area, Mirage is the mature girl, Freyja is the immature girl; so Freyja winning is technically breaking tradition.

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As for the end of the triangle in Macross Frontier, I was spoiled so I knew Sheryl was going to win.. It was hard watching Ranka be happy around Alto and knowing she was going to lose, but ultimately Sheryl's connection with Alto ran deeper. So I don't know who had a better chance, Ranka or Mirage, but I definitely liked Ranka's end of the deal more.
That's your opinion.

People could argue "she had chances for winning him" all they like; however, it's all a one-sided triangle like this one IMO because from episode 6 on, it's all for Sheryl Nome with him. All Ranka did is chase an unrequited love like Mirage did, and even acknowledged it in episode 11 during her monologue for Nanase encouraging her. The pain is viewing her basically going along with it because she helplessly falls in love with him. The second half of Frontier shows how one-sided their love triangle is because Alto is all for Sheryl, ignoring Ranka unless she calls upon him, and is basically throwing himself at Sheryl in episode 19; so her signing off her love for Alto in episode 21 is less of a reprieve for a fan like myself because unlike Mirage, she had no chance at all of coming back from it in the final episode.

Mirage, however, gained an ending she long anticipated because she only realized her feelings for him once she recognized how he loved Freyja. Mirage has known his feelings for Freyja since his admission how she's "more than a friend" in episode 16, and how he does not deny his growing feelings as "blossoming love" for Freyja. Mirage knows her love is fruitless; however, she chases it regardless because no one can help falling in love and all of the pain which comes from it.

Personally, I like Mirage's loss more.
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Old 2016-10-06, 22:59   Link #90
SleepingTerror
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Well, of course it's my opinion. I believe Ranka's conclusion and exit scene of the final moments of the series was better written than Mirage's. They didn't forget her like they did with Mirage.
And strangely enough, I found that Ranka chasing after Alto was more of Ranka trying to keep up with Sheryl. It was bittersweet, and I got the same feeling with Mirage comparing herself with Hayate.
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Old 2017-08-24, 18:22   Link #91
Convoy
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A clerical observation: can this thread's title be moved to "Farina" per the official English subtitles' rendition of Mirage's name?
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