(L) Magi - Labyrinth of Magic [manga]

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Endscape

I'm not sure about that. It's hard to imagine Kouen as a lesser evil when he has clearly stated his desire to erase all other cultures in the world, and rewrite history so that people forget other cultures even existed.

Our opinions of him aside, the manga clearly shows him in a better light than Sinbad despite his actions. Sinbad is presented as two-faced and untrustworthy. Kouen's actions are questionable, but he still inspires more trust than Sinbad in most of the main characters.

That's oversimplifying the issue.

There's a clear contrast between the portrayal of the Kou siblings and Hakuryu. They're fighting in a way that minimizes casualties while reducing their magoi, which is a bad strategy and they know it, but they're still doing things that way because they care. Haku on the other hand doesn't give a damn about the amount of casualties or anything like that.

Hakuryuu managed to get Alibaba and Aladdin to rethink some of their long held convictions and while his methods are abhorrent, and he is being selfish and heartless, objectively speaking what's he's done and wants to do isn't bad.

Hakuryu is someone who rejects the world because the world wasn't kind to him and he doesn't want to live in a world that hurts him. He only cares about himself so he's willing to destroy the world to erase his pain. That's super selfish, but the part about "not wanting to live in a world that causes you pain" is what got Aladdin rethinking his convictions. It's not that he agrees with Hakuryu's actions or even his goals, but he does think someone shouldn't be forced to live in a painful world. This whole thing still paints Haku in a totally negative light, but it also shows him as someone pitiful. Otaka wants us to feel pity for him, but I don't think she wants us to root for him. That's for the characters depicted positively.

The manga isn't treating him as solely a villain to be killed, that's for sure.

I agree with this. He's depicted as a pitiful villain that needs redemption.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Kouen will never join Sinbad, and I think this manga will never paint Sinbad's brand of coercion in a positive light anyway. As far as I can tell Kouen has always been portrayed as the lesser evil between the two, despite his more violent methods.

Just look how the recent chapters humanize the Kou siblings. They're shown as selfless people, to the point of naivety in some cases (something they share with both Aladdin and Alibaba). Haku, on the other hand, is depicted as selfish and heartless. If the story is framing events that way, I seriously doubt we're expected to root for Haku and his Seven Seas allies.

This is actually something i have felt has been very ridiclous about the manag ever since the summit. The manga is trying very hard to TELL us that Kouen is the lesser evil between him and Sinbad, but it SHOWS us him being clearly worst.

I mean, up to this point the worst thing Sinbad has done is using one of the Kou siblings as a sleeper agent. He has some shady tricks, but ultimately much of it works to everyone's advantage. Sinbad basically arranges things so that an Alliance with him is mutually beneficial. Uniting the world through alliances seems like a brilliant way to bring the world together. Sinbad brings countries together a few people suffer for it and everyone seems to be better off as a result... This instance with the kou empire is the first time we have seen sinbad directly using war against another country and its against a country that has out right stated its intent to some day conquer him; Kouen's actions and declarations at the summit pretty much gave sinbad VERY legitimate reasons to make a pre-emptive strike on him.

Contrast with Kouen's method. First he uses Al-Theman as a sort of black op's team who sow destruction and discord in the countries he wishes to conquer; He basically used them to destroy Balbadd from within so that they could be taken over by the Kou Empire. He takes over countries by either forcing them to unconditional surrender or taking them over by force. And after he's done taking them over he erases their history and culture to match his own. Heck, when they took over Balbadd they promised that they would allow Balbadd to maintain a degree of Autonomy, but they immediately took that away. Guy can't even keep his promises. Kouen forces countries together and countless people suffer and died in the process.

Heck, Kouen's philosophy that everyone must have the same culture to be united isn't even true. The Seven seas Alliance's very existence proves them wrong. There's is an alliance that remains strong, and stays in harmony, and yet the cultures of each nation is vastly different. If what kouen said was true, then the seven seas alliance should not be able to exist.

And y'know i actually had to roll my eyes a few chapters back when kougyoku was lamenting the fact that her enemies were gonna be kou soldiers. Normally this WOULD seem like legit thing for her to worry about, but its actually kind of a double standard since she does not share that same sympathy for her other enemies. Afterall, she intends to "unite the world" which means that EVERY soldier she fights against is intended to someday be a future member of her country. Its kind of a double standard for her to sympathize for her former kou comrades, but not to sympathize for the soldiers of other countries. Balbadd for instance is NOW a part of the kou empire and thus "her comrades", but not long ago her country was making their people suffer; heck she herself was fighting them (btw, anyone else find it odd how coldhearted she was when we first met her in Balbadd and how sweet she's been portrayed since then?)

And then there's Haku... Really between him and Kouen he seemed like he was in the right. The story tried very hard to tell us he was wrong to challenge Kouen, but by alla appearances it seemed only right that she should. He was right to challenge Kouen over Al-theman and he was right to eliminate them, and he DID have a legit grievance with what his mother did to his father and brothers. Really the ONLY reason we accept that Haku is the more evil of the two is because he needed to resort to mind manipulation to get things done... that and he declared his intent to do certain evil things for no reason, as it has NOTHING to do with his legit grievances.

This story just has a habit of trying to tell us one thing, but showing us something else... it just doesn't add up right. Its actually kinda why i'm not interested in this war and would rather see the adventures of Judar and Cactuar Alibaba.



I think things would have worked out better if Al Theman was switch around to be part of Sinbad's side rather than Kou's. Then the two would be pretty equal in how bad they are and there WOULD be a possible way of making Kouen look less evil. Sinbad destroys a country from the inside without them knowing he was the cause and then offfers to rescue them via alliance, while Kouen typically relies on conquest. Both are pretty much taking over countries by force, its just that Kouen is up front and honest about it. This would have worked out better when it comes to Balbadd; not only would Sinbad be the reason why the country fell apart, but you could even give the Kou empire credit for essentially helping the country recover after it fell apart. If things were set up like that, then i could accept Kouen as the lesser evil between him and Sinbad.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Our opinions of him aside, the manga clearly shows him in a better light than Sinbad despite his actions.

Yeah, still not seeing that. The story depicts both of them as being ruthless and dangerous

Sinbad is presented as two-faced and untrustworthy.

And Kouen is presented as a tyrant.

He's been plenty untrustworthy too, what with how he refused to let Balbadd self-govern despite that being agreed to.

Kouen's actions are questionable, but he still inspires more trust than Sinbad in most of the main characters.

Which main characters are you talking about?

Alibaba got disillusioned by Sinbad, but not to the point whet he trusts Kouen more, especially after how Kouen dealt with him, Al-Thamen and Hakuryuu.

Aladdin is unsure about Sinbad, but not to the point where he trusts Kouen more. In fact, he said he thinks both Sinbad and Kouen are people he shouldn't give too much info to.

This whole thing still paints Haku in a totally negative light

It's just not that black and white to me.

Hakuryuu has actually saved the world by killing Gyokuen and getting rid of Kouen is definitely doing the world a favour.

His position isn't totally unreasonable.

I agree with this. He's depicted as a pitiful villain that needs redemption.

Lots of people would disagree with you there. They'd rather Hakuryuu die a villain, with his determination intact, than get redeemed.

Honestly, I think that's be a more interesting way of doing things.

[Breimn]

Comparing what Hakuryuu did he is not more evil than KouEn , it is the otherway around.
Only thing changing view being the motivations behind their actions.
And even then Simbad has shown to still be better than Kou En with them not oppressing others but creating a trade system where every culture slowly assimilates the other making things slower compared to KouEn but better since the peoples are slowly becoming united thanks to it.

[shalala]

And there I was thinking that Nanami was an agent of Al-Thamen. The way she fan girls over her lord was quite funny.Now that Sinbad has entered the civil war of Kou. How will Kouen react to this as well as Reim.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by shalala

And there I was thinking that Nanami was an agent of Al-Thamen. The way she fan girls over her lord was quite funny.Now that Sinbad has entered the civil war of Kou. How will Kouen react to this as well as Reim.

I doubt anything will happen until Alibaba comes back. The plot can't advance until then, because it's painfully obvious he's the one to defeat and redeem Hakuryuu.

For the time being, Kouen will probably retreat and the Kou empire will stay divided for a while.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I doubt anything will happen until Alibaba comes back. The plot can't advance until then, because it's painfully obvious he's the one to defeat and redeem Hakuryuu.

For the time being, Kouen will probably retreat and the Kou empire will stay divided for a while.

What does that cactus have anything to do with the actual plot? He can spend time playing all day with his new tsundere friend until the end of the series without anyone gives a care about. To them, he's already dead and they will move on eventually, guys like Sindbad and Kouen won't wait for him, you see.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

What does that cactus have anything to do with the actual plot? He can spend time playing all day with his new tsundere friend until the end of the series without anyone gives a care about. To them, he's already dead and they will move on eventually, guys like Sindbad and Kouen won't wait for him, you see.

Its kinda of meta reasoning. Alibaba's second only to Alladdin as far as the main characters are concerned and therefore he must play a role, especially when it comes to Haku do to their history.

Alibaba is kind of a weird sticking point for the series. He is Aladdin's chosen king and yet so far the story is not really going in that direction; i mean he doesn't even have control over his OWN kingdom much less paving the way to uniting the world; Heck now the guy doesn't even have control over his own BODY, much less his kingdom. What is it that makes alibaba so special that he's the secondary MC, and how will he even begin to unite the world under him(doesn't even seem like he WANTS the job that aliddin wants for him).

Sinbad may be a bit shady, but so far he seems like he is doing an excellent job of leading the world in the right direction. The world with sinbad on top seems like a great idea. Heck the sinbad spin off actually makes it feel like he's actually the chosen one. In a way, he has all the trappings of the MC who will someday save the world... and yet, from a meta-perspective, you get the idea that is NOT where this is going as Alibaba will be key; can't help but think they'll find someway to turn sinbad into a villain. Granted, the IDEA of having a chosen one turn out to be the villain can indeed make for a really good story, but if that's where we are going, then i'm not liking the set up so far... Sinbad is way too good at being one of the good guys, and Alibaba is way too bad at being the hero

[Breimn]

It happenned!It really happened!

Spoiler for magi 274 spoilers:

http://eleore.tumblr.com/post/123966...i-274-spoilers

Hakuei betrayed them for her lil bro!

[Kazu-kun]

I knew it

Spoiler for 274 spoilers:

Alibaba is coming.

Now that Sinbad has decided to attack Balbad to defeat Kouen, I'm totally sure Alibaba will get there in time to stop him somehow.

I don't know how he's going to do it though. Clearly he can't win in a fight against Sinbad. But he's going to stop him. I can feel it.

[Endscape]

Man, if these spoilers are true, then I'm blown away. Some nice developments here!

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I knew it

Spoiler for 274 spoilers:

Alibaba is coming.

Now that Sinbad has decided to attack Balbad to defeat Kouen, I'm totally sure Alibaba will get there in time to stop him somehow.

I don't know how he's going to do it though. Clearly he can't win in a fight against Sinbad. But he's going to stop him. I can feel it.

Spoiler for chapter 274:

When a character, especially one with Alibaba's luck, says he needs to hurry, I'm more than half sure he'll be too late.

[luffyxnami]

I am going to make a prediction about future chapter, reim is going to come in later and help kouen. The reason is they are stupid and the fanalis are retard who are basically asking kou to conquer them someday cause of they deep loyalty for reim.

[hawkeyesvn]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

This is actually something i have felt has been very ridiclous about the manag ever since the summit. The manga is trying very hard to TELL us that Kouen is the lesser evil between him and Sinbad, but it SHOWS us him being clearly worst.

Completely agree with you, I really can't understand how so many people find Kouen better than Sinbad. Let's be frank here, this how those 2 want to unite the world:

Kouen_Absorbing other countries through conquest and war. All other cultures, languages except Kou's will be destroyed. There will be much bloodshed during the conquest. After that, the system which make everyone 2nd class citizen except Kou natives will cause society troubles for sure. This will lead to many rebellions and more bloodshed...The good thing is it's will be shortest way to unite the world.

Sinbad_Chaining other countries into a economy network with his countries as a main key. Minimum bloodshed since Sinbad always present this to other kings/queens in a win-win situation. Joining the alliance do not force them to lose their culture, language. In the end, pretty much everyone's life just go on. Once all the countries are dependent on each other economically, war will not have much chance to happen - similar to how our modern world works! The bad thing is this will take a really long time and some level of trust to be successful.

Honestly, I don't see what's so great about Kouen's way. The guy is ready to make war with the whole world and he's okay with it just because he and his brother think his philosophy is right ? Killing thousand of people, crippling other countries is OK for greater good ? Sorry, I don't buy that BS.

Sinbad might be shady but if you have read his spin-off, you will realize that deep down, he's still the same kid back in Partevia, one that love adventures and hate war! Yes, that's the important thing. That's why he made the alliance, to stop potential wars.

Both Kouen and Sinbad want to rule the world, that's not a bad thing when you have such power and charisma. What's bad is the way you do it! IMO, a bloody conquest will never be better than a bloodless trade deal.

[Raviel]

Originally Posted by hawkeyesvn

Completely agree with you, I really can't understand how so many people find Kouen better than Sinbad. Let's be frank here, this how those 2 want to unite the world:

Kouen_Absorbing other countries through conquest and war. All other cultures, languages except Kou's will be destroyed. There will be much bloodshed during the conquest. After that, the system which make everyone 2nd class citizen except Kou natives will cause society troubles for sure. This will lead to many rebellions and more bloodshed...The good thing is it's will be shortest way to unite the world.

Sinbad_Chaining other countries into a economy network with his countries as a main key. Minimum bloodshed since Sinbad always present this to other kings/queens in a win-win situation. Joining the alliance do not force them to lose their culture, language. In the end, pretty much everyone's life just go on. Once all the countries are dependent on each other economically, war will not have much chance to happen - similar to how our modern world works! The bad thing is this will take a really long time and some level of trust to be successful.

Honestly, I don't see what's so great about Kouen's way. The guy is ready to make war with the whole world and he's okay with it just because he and his brother think his philosophy is right ? Killing thousand of people, crippling other countries is OK for greater good ? Sorry, I don't buy that BS.

Sinbad might be shady but if you have read his spin-off, you will realize that deep down, he's still the same kid back in Partevia, one that love adventures and hate war! Yes, that's the important thing. That's why he made the alliance, to stop potential wars.

Both Kouen and Sinbad want to rule the world, that's not a bad thing when you have such power and charisma. What's bad is the way you do it! IMO, a bloody conquest will never be better than a bloodless trade deal.

Maybe....maybe they see Sinbad as filthy capitalist

[Twi]

The sad truth is, it really doesn't matter which side is right or wrong. Both of them have philosophies that they wish to spread. Kouen does his by conquest, and Sinbad by economical manipulation. The only real difference is that one happens to be more bloody than the other and take a shorter time.

[hawkeyesvn]

Originally Posted by Raviel

Maybe....maybe they see Sinbad as filthy capitalist

Filthy capitalist...That bring back some memories, I haven´t seen that word in media for quite sometime ( despite living in a communist country ). Sinbad is not a capitalist, he´s just a nice businessman. People just misunderstand him

[Sixth]

Is Sinbad playing a dangerous game or everything is under his control? I mean Hakuryuu is insane. He may target Sinbad next after he became emperor.

[ninjastarforcex]

Originally Posted by noobita

Is Sinbad playing a dangerous game or everything is under his control? I mean Hakuryuu is insane. He may target Sinbad next after he became emperor.

Is Hakuryuu playing a dangerous game or everything is under his control? I mean Sinbad is shady as fuck. He may target Hakuryuu next after he became emperor.

there

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by ninjastarforcex

Is Hakuryuu playing a dangerous game or everything is under his control? I mean Sinbad is shady as fuck. He may target Hakuryuu next after he became emperor.

there

Is this how you replied people's post? Ya know, copy pasta thing.

How do Hakuryuu knew Sinbad was a shady guy? Except readers and Alibaba, I don't think anyone else in this series ever think that Sinbad is a shady guy.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by noobita

Is this how you replied people's post? Ya know, copy pasta thing.

How do Hakuryuu knew Sinbad was a shady guy? Except readers and Alibaba, I don't think anyone else in this series ever think that Sinbad is a shady guy.

Don't forget his Household vessel users. They think he's shady as hell. lol :P