Heavy Object - Episode 11 (Iguazu Mountains 2) Discussion / Poll

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Tormenk

Thing is, Fro's backstory isn't really convincing in her decision between choosing to live on the battlefield as a good commander against living as a tool to the nobility system. It would have been fine to just state she would rather make a difference out in the field versus being forced to be a tool for the personal ends of others'. Adding in her unique heritage feels unnecessary and done for the sake of being 'special' in the arranged marriage trope.

Not like it plays into the whole 'Objects have changed the world' factor down into societal conditions either, it would have been impressive if it was but sadly it isn't so the entire set-up is rather lacklustre on the whole.

Her backstory is the motivation for her to join the military, basically it's about adding details to stand out from a generic arranged marriage trope, as you've said.

And personally I don't think everything needs to be connected to the Objects, that would seem a bit much.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Tormenk

Thing is, Fro's backstory isn't really convincing in her decision between choosing to live on the battlefield as a good commander against living as a tool to the nobility system. It would have been fine to just state she would rather make a difference out in the field versus being forced to be a tool for the personal ends of others'. Adding in her unique heritage feels unnecessary and done for the sake of being 'special' in the arranged marriage trope.

Not like it plays into the whole 'Objects have changed the world' factor down into societal conditions either, it would have been impressive if it was but sadly it isn't so the entire set-up is rather lacklustre on the whole.

Since when is adding more details to a character's backstory a bad thing? It sounds like just complaining because Frolaytia has a more complicated backstory than expected rather than her being incredibly simplified. Honestly that just seems silly. How is it not convincing that this plays a factor into why her situation is so difficult? If it had nothing to do with her situation then you could argue it's unnecessary, but it's entirely relevant to her situation.

Honestly it just sounds like you want the show to be really simple. Everything has to directly rotate around one common theme. Although I'm not even sure you are right on that mark. Objects changed the entire global situation which lead to the distinct societies found in each faction. Would Frolaytia's situation have been nearly so difficult if Objects were never created and thus this aristocratic powerhouse never was formed? Very possible that it wouldn't.

Yeah her background isn't so directly tied to the Objects. There's no history of an Object running over her brother or something. It's fleshing out one of the main cast....that's kind of important for a show to do or else you have blank individuals who have nothing of note to say about them.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

The fact that the nobles’s obsession over Fro is stupid and doesn’t make a lick of sense and adds nothing but dumb over-complication to the story just screams “trying too hard to be edgy” for me. The stupid over-complication feels like the later seasons of LOST .

[Chaos2Frozen]

No, not really. It's not complicated at all. In fact it's decisively straight forward.

It doesn't even have a Sunrise patented rape attempt so it can't be that edgy.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

No, not really. It's not complicated at all. In fact it's decisively straight forward

It doesn't have a Sunrise patented rape attempt so it can't be that edgy.

The over-complication is juvenile-level of over-complication (aka. “dumb over-complication”, like I said above). It’s not something that will get audience with half-a brain lost (pardon the pun) or anything. In other words, you can still follow it but the addition only makes the story dumber (which I already elaborated in the previous page). And even though the story doesn’t feature literal/physical attempted rape, it has some creepy men who basically tried to get Fro’s body to literally impregnate her against her will (over idiotic reason, no less). That’s not what I call something tasteful story-wise. Fro might as well be Asuna from SAO during the Fairy Dance arc and we all know how bad that is. If you’re willing to positively accept everything the show throw at you then fine.

I could’ve been better if the author present a less ridiculous reason why the nobles want to marry Fro (preferably a more cerebral political reason that actually makes sense). But alas that doesn’t happen.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The over-complication is juvenile-level of over-complication (aka. “dumb over-complication”, like I said above). It’s not something that will get audience with half-a brain lost (pardon the pun) or anything. In other words, you can still follow it but the addition only makes the story dumber (which I already elaborated in the previous page). And even though the story doesn’t feature literal/physical attempted rape, it has some creepy men who basically tried to get Fro’s body to literally impregnate her against her will (over idiotic reason, no less). That’s not what I call something tasteful story-wise. Fro might as well be Asuna from SAO during the Fairy Dance arc and we all know how bad that is. If you’re willing to positively accept everything the show throw at you then fine.

I could’ve been better if the author present a less ridiculous reason why the nobles want to marry Fro (preferably a more cerebral political reason that actually makes sense). But alas that doesn’t happen.

The problem I understand people had with SAO was that they made Asuna a literally damsel prisoner in that arc, Frolaytia doesn't have that issue because she technically already 'escaped' and join up with the military. The problem is still there but she's not exactly imprisoned by it nor is she expecting anyone to bail her out.

The story pretty much explained every facet of this 'scandal' already, it may not apply to our real world but it does fit in their world.

I think we'll just be going around in circles at this point.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

The problem I understand people had with SAO was that they made Asuna a literally damsel prisoner in that arc, Frolaytia doesn't have that issue because she technically already 'escaped' and join up with the military. The problem is still there but she's not exactly imprisoned by it nor is she expecting anyone to bail her out.

Not the “bird in cage” or “please save me, oh my prince”-part but the “a creepy man is about to legally rape me”-part since you were asking about edgy-ness.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

The story pretty much explained every facet of this 'scandal' already, it may not apply to our real world but it does fit in their world.

Unless the show explains that the human characters in this story don’t share the same biological reproduction process as IRL people, it’s still a stupid reason for the nobles to pursue Fro by any standard .

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I think we'll just be going around in circles at this point.

I don't know about you, but the point of my argument has been solid and clear since my first post in this thread. It's not my fault if people are going in circles to defend the absurdity of Fro's backstory (though it's not her fault to have a stupid element in her backstory. It's the writer's fault).

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Unless the show explains that the human characters in this story don’t share the same biological reproduction process as IRL people, it’s still a stupid reason for the nobles to pursue Fro by any standard .

There is a practical reason for it as explained that for Nobility, inheritance play a huge part.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I don't know about you, but the point of my argument has been solid and clear since my first post in this thread. It's not my fault if people are going in circles to defend the absurdity of Fro's backstory (though it's not her fault to have a stupid element in her backstory. It's the writer's fault).

No, we're going in circles because neither are going to budge our stances.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

There is a practical reason for it as explained that for Nobility, inheritance play a huge part.

The political part still makes sense. The derp-science about human reproduction and the derp-logic about modern nobles being stupid enough to even try marrying their royal sons to Fro based on superstitious rumors do not.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

No, we're going in circles because neither are going to budge our stances.

Now that we know where we are standing, do you still want to continue? I mean, it’s not like I’m being pig-headed about defending my “contra” position. If the show/writer gives me a good reason to trust their narrative, I will gladly join the “happy train” with other HO-fans like you. But the fact is, it doesn’t (so far).

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The political part still makes sense. The derp-science about human reproduction and the derp-logic about modern nobles being stupid enough to even try marrying their royal sons to Fro based on superstitious rumors do not.

It's not strange at all- Frolaytia is nobility herself so there's no problem if you go by the typical nobility tropes of being all about social status. She's also a beautiful woman, so there's a trophy wife aspect to it as well.

You keep bring up the point on modern nobles but I don't think that's what this is, or at least not for the 'bad guys'. Just like the Faith Organization's 'bad guys' are bloodthirsty zealots, the legitimacy kingdom's would be pompous nobles with no regards to human rights. You can probably bet that the Capitalist's would be some oil baron or the Information Alliance would have some privacy invasion organization.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Now that we know where we are standing, do you still want to continue? I mean, it’s not like I’m being pig-headed about defending my “contra” position. If the show/writer gives me a good reason to trust their narrative, I will gladly join the “happy train” with other HO-fans like you. But the fact is, it doesn’t (so far).

I mean, I would be happy to stop here if you would too. It takes two to fill up a thread.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

It's not strange at all- Frolaytia is nobility herself so there's no problem if you go by the typical nobility tropes of being all about social status. She's also a beautiful woman, so there's a trophy wife aspect to it as well.

Like I said, everything else is okay, except for the “shag her and we’ll get a son, that’s why she’s precious”-part. Heck, from looks and personality alone, I’d say Fro is worth fighting for to make her your bride. But the story just had to throw “shag Fro -> son get”-reasoning which actually hurts her backstory by pouring stupidity on it.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

You keep bring up the point on modern nobles but I don't think that's what this is, or at least not for the 'bad guys'. Just like the Faith Organization's 'bad guys' are bloodthirsty zealots, the legitimacy kingdom's would be pompous nobles with no regards to human rights. You can probably bet that the Capitalist's would be some oil baron or the Information Alliance would have some privacy invasion organization.

So, expecting the bad guys in this series to be at least smart enough to know basic human biology is too much? And I can only expect archetypal bad guys with no dimension from this series? Well, thanks for pointing that out so I can lower my expectation a bit more.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I mean, I would be happy to stop here if you would too. It takes two to fill up a thread.

*shrugs* You reply to my comment, I respond. That's how I work. So, if there's still some things directed at me that urge me to respond, I'll do just that. I don't enjoy bashing a show. When I think an episode or a series is bad, I just want to state it once in the thread, voice my opinion and done. But I will respond to people who reply me when I'm in the mood for it. That said, I do prefer to stop here.

Listen, you like everything about this show and this episode, fine, cool, good for you. I won't blame or make fun of you for it (or any other fans for that matter). Me, I find some stupidity in the storytelling that bugs me, and so far I found no valid argument that can defend it. So, if you think that certain element of Fro's backstory is good, let's just agree to disagree and end it here.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So, expecting the bad guys in this series to be at least smart enough to know basic human biology is too much? And I can only expect archetypal bad guys with no dimension from this series? Well, thanks for pointing that out so I can lower my expectation a bit more.

I'm not telling you what to expect, I'm telling you how I think about it.

[Tormenk]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Since when is adding more details to a character's backstory a bad thing? It sounds like just complaining because Frolaytia has a more complicated backstory than expected rather than her being incredibly simplified. Honestly that just seems silly. How is it not convincing that this plays a factor into why her situation is so difficult? If it had nothing to do with her situation then you could argue it's unnecessary, but it's entirely relevant to her situation.

I don't think adding in more details is a bad thing when done well but do I think Fro's backstory is more complicated than necessary. Havia's backstory is an example of adding in details that is done well.

On the surface his arranged marriage is similar to Fro's situation since both parties aren't keen on the arrangement. Havia stays in the military to become accomplished enough to take over as head of the family, and with that to possibly bring the feuding between the two families to end someday. Frolaytia stays in the military by her own choice because her other option is to become a tool because of her heritage. In comparison her backstory leaves her static and goalless because 'it must be so'.

I might have been fine with the current setup if it had left room for Fro to develop in a meaningful fashion, say for example by letting her exert control over the nobility once she becomes high up enough in the military that they can't push her around anymore but there's none of that so far. Maybe that will change once this arc concludes so who knows?

Would Frolaytia's situation have been nearly so difficult if Objects were never created and thus this aristocratic powerhouse never was formed? Very possible that it wouldn't.

Which is why I said it would be impressive, given how much of a stretch it would be to be believable since probably no product of warfare in history managed to change societal conventions. Aristocracy is from an earlier age and closer to the feudal age of power distribution after all.

[~Yami~]

Frolaytia T___T

I really like the story that Heavy Object tried to create in every missions
There is a time when Milinda, Qwenthur, and Havia beat an object without using object
the other time, Qwenthur, Havia, and Baby Magnum together... then Qwenthur-Havia tag team and also Qwenthur-Baby Magnum
To think that the day of Frolaytia-Qwenthur partnership would come is truly something that new in this show
There's no way you could get bored in every single arc