2020-09-23, 18:36 | Link #321 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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I honestly thought for sure Carmilla was Ai Kayano using her cutesy little girl voice, even though I've been hearing Manaka Iwami every Monday as Tohru Honda
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I don't think we saw the one where Rem tortures him and Ram puts him out of his misery, unless I missed it. Quote:
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2020-09-23, 18:55 | Link #322 |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
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"You're a witch!"
Hmm, maybe work on your insults a little, Subaru? Seeing what possibly happened in the worlds Subaru left behind was interesting, too bad we'll probably never find out whether they really exist or not. If Subaru were to find out that they kept existing, he'd probably be unable to move forward, as he'd be reluctant to experiment. I'm not sure why the other witches didn't crash the tea party until now. Were they just not interested enough? Anyway, witch of wrath is becoming a favorite of mine. Really saved Subaru's butt here. I can't believe he was actually going to go through with the contract without asking about the cons. Loved Echidna's face when Satella showed up. I hope she'll be able to hold a conversation this time. Next episode could be quite the milestone if so.
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2020-09-23, 19:10 | Link #323 | |||
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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But I'm more willing to believe it's not true because the Trial is ultimately just a farbrication from his memories made to make him feel guilty rather than be factual. Which does make me wonder how he passes the second trial. Does he just bear it until it's done showing him the slideshow of his deaths . Quote:
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2020-09-23, 21:38 | Link #326 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Wow, this episode was great treat. I was always curious about the reactions of the worlds Subaru left behind after each death, just being able to see seconds or minutes of what they showed us was delicious. Wish there was just one volume of aftermath after each death to just show what him dying at that time affects.
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2020-09-24, 04:14 | Link #327 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Ireland
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Uwah. First thing he does is check that his eye is okay.
Woah, all progress is entirely reset. Ah, so trials are a past, present and future thing. Echinda not having anyone in mind at all in regards to Beatrice's "that person" is just lulz. It's strange that Subaru tells Echidna that she is "incapable of understanding how anyone feels" when she has been sympathizing with him for this entire time. Plus, She seems to have manipulated him really well to get him to this point, where he would accept her contract without thinking about it. I think the deal itself is a lot better than I thought it would be. There isn't really a "trap" there. Well, the real trap is that with Echinda's personality, Subaru would end up dying thousands of times. So it's quite clever. The issue is the difference between the perspectives of Subaru and Echinda. Quote:
Honestly, I think he would be pretty happy with that. If you ignore the 10,000 deaths thing. |
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2020-09-24, 04:32 | Link #328 | ||||
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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As far as it goes, Rem used Subaru's curse as the perfect chance to kill him. The fact she used her spiked ball and killed him that way hardly count as a mercy kill, moreso it wasn't a clean and painless attempt, even though Subaru was barely moving and not even aware of her presence. Quote:
This also means Echidna is merely acting based on "what people are supposed to do" thanks to her knowledge, but that doesn't mean she genuinely feel that way. That's the very reason why Subaru called her a witch: not based on her status or abilities, but her own existence. A monster that isn't anything close to humane. EDIT: I've checked Tappei's twitter and he actually confirmed my thoughts about that: Quote:
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So instead of trying to clear a game blind, it is like he has to charter every single bad end of a sandbox game with limitless way to die thanks to the fantasy setting. And unlike the blind option, fate (as in Echidna) would direct him to all of the bad ends first. If anything, one could argue that Subaru has higher chance to overcome his ordeal without her since he wouldn't be fed false information that would lead to undesired outcome. And to make things worse, he knows full well Echidna doesn't care about him or the people he loves and wants to help. Knowing that, his only solace about RbD, as in having a kindred spirit, literally vanished. That's basically knowing your own executioner throwing you to the slaughter over and over just for their amusement and curiosity.
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2020-09-24 at 04:46. |
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2020-09-24, 05:02 | Link #329 | |
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Location: Ireland
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Here Subaru will get a ideal result he wants the problem is the "process". He'll have to die thousands of times and not because it is nesscary but purely to satisfy her "greed". |
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2020-09-24, 05:15 | Link #330 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
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The process itself is enough to break someone's soul with "merely" few attempts. Even if you are promised what you want, being forced to repeat failures over and over without any rhyme or reason will obviously take its toll sooner or later.
Let's imagine Dark Souls where the game force you to go through the start to the last dungeon while dying to every single enemy and boss encounter multiple times and differently to "experiment" all the pattern and death possibilities, and also try every single death by environement hazard in every possible location at different time of your progress. Then repeat that process for every single story choices, attributes choices and gear choices, while being denied any shortcut or save point (unless forced by RbD), meaning you have to do the exact same things knowing full well they will lead to your demise. That kind of process is not only longwinded but strictly pointless by its nature. Subaru's case is much more insidious because he still feels pain every time he dies and he vividly remembers every death after each loop. He is not allowed to share his suffering either, except for Echidna (and probably the other witches) who are bunch of nutjobs. And finally, he is not promised that Echidna will be satisfied in a "timely manner". This also means she could effectively not fulfill the end of the bargain if Subaru's spirit breaks before she finally is satisfied by his ordeal. A contract is all about semantics. It is quite obvious when you see how Beatrice's contract was done: she has to wait for someone, yet Echidna doesn't even know if that person exist or will ever exist and never told Beatrice that she will have to make that choice. This effectively means that Beatrice's contract could have been prolonged forever. Likewise, if we stretch Subaru's contract semantics, this means that his contract could be prolonged the very moment Echidna observes a new possibility in his path and wants to try that (which also include every single alternative path/actions/result to that). It is simply boundless and could force Subaru to do heinous act just for sake of experimentation. And should Subaru refuse to do them, then it would definitely not satisfy Echidna, thus leading them to a stalemate. Also, as pointed out by Subaru and Echidna, the contract doesn't even consider the "best path" to reach that end, so this also means there is absolutely no guarantee anyone will be spared by a certain degree of atrocity, not even Emilia "as long the end matches what Subaru desires, everything else is irrelevant". In other words, the promise of a good end (not even perfect end) is only confirmed on paper but is hardly possible in reality since it isn't even guaranteed by the contract. It is basically abusing of his unique advantage and turns it into a cesspool of suffering porn "just because". There is no way anyone would be sane enough to accept that knowing there is potentially no end in sight while they almost gave up halfway even though it didn't even amount more than 10-20 deaths. That's basically saying "you can have what you want, but you gotta wait for the end of the time, which is infinity -1 and I can't guarantee you won't give up halfway nor you won't be spared seeing people you love suffer as much or worse than you do. Oh and you might lose some people along the way, but as long Emilia and some of your friends are alive (not necessarily fine and well, mind you!), that's fine right?".
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2020-09-24 at 06:09. |
2020-09-24, 06:34 | Link #332 |
the "Z" is for "Zeta"
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Portugal
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Apparently, Tappei wrote IF stories for several branching points in Subaru's journey, each labelled under a deadly sin. They're not exactly canon, but contain spoilers for future arcs, so I haven't read them aside from a rough summary of what happens in those alternate routes.
The situation we witnessed in this episode is also one of those branching points, where Subaru chooses to from a contract with Echidna. It's called Greed IF: Kasaneru (meaning "overlap/pile up/add up/repeat") and let's just say that......it's not pretty. Other branching points that have passed are: Spoiler for Other IFs:
Like I said, most of these contain spoilers, so I've only read a basic summary of them...but still interesting to see what could've happened had Subaru chosen differently.
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2020-09-24, 09:11 | Link #333 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I don't think Echidna lied when she said Subaru would get the best possible result, otherwise she would have also lied when Subaru asked if she would do so by taking the best possible path.
The way I interpret this is that if Subaru accepts the contract he would indeed end up with the best possible scenario for everyone, in other words everyone is alive and happy (as long as the probability isn't zero), well, everyone except possibly himself. Echidna would however want to explore every single "what if" scenario, which would require Subaru to die multiple times, a lot more than it would be needed for him to just solve the problems by himself. There is some logic in that. How exactly can you be sure which is the best possible resolution if you don't try them all before? Subaru might get a positive resolution by himself, but that doesn't mean it will be the best. In fact last time he failed to keep Rem completely safe. It would take a lot of time before every possible path is explored, but there has to be an end, otherwise Echidna would have lied. The problem is if Subaru can endure that and to that Echidna reminded him that he swore to be ready to make any sacrifice to achieve his goal. But that being said, I'm not convinced that the contract would create some form of compulsion on Subaru. Wouldn't he still be free to ignore Echidna's directions when they blatantly don't lead to a positive result? In the end there was no compulsion on Beatrice's either, just a deceit. Beatrice could have resolved her contract at any time, she just needed to choose someone as "that person". Still I suppose that if Subaru refuses to listen to Echidna it would be meaningless anyway. So, yeah, he really needs to be absolutely desperate, he must end believing he can't possibly solve a certain situation alone before accepting the deal.
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2020-09-24, 09:36 | Link #334 |
the "Z" is for "Zeta"
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Portugal
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But now that Satella appeared, there's no way she'll let Subaru form a contract with Echidna. Not to mention he already decided he'll save Beatrice.
And regarding Satella's appearance at the tea party, the other witches weren't that worried about her...except Echidna, she was clearly angry. Can't blame her though, she was killed while in the middle of an experiment to gain immortality, anyone in that situation would hold a grudge
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2020-09-24, 09:49 | Link #335 | |
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This makes me wonder what the third trial is going to be like. Forcing Subaru to witness future's where he wasn't able to accomplish anything or save anyone? What the future could've been like if he'd made different choices ?
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Echidna went to the trouble of creating a realm where she assumed Satella couldn't break through and they were safe, and now she just comes strutting in like it was no big deal. I guess that's what you get when you try and take away Satella's man .
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2020-09-24, 11:16 | Link #336 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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She doesn't understand people's emotions, which means that she will most likely see things in a very objective manner. This also means that the terms of the contract can be extremely detrimental to Subaru regardless of the number of attemps he would have to go through. For instance, what is the definition of "happiness" Subaru will have to employ to make Echidna understand the happy ending he wishes for? Assuming Subaru doesn't give that definition, Echidna is free to conclude that "as long Emilia's camp members are alive and Emilia is crowned Queen of the kingdom, it Subaru's victory", which disregard everyone mental state, nor does it insure the situation is good enough. Morale questions aside, Echidna's inability to understand people emotions would greatly pose problem to Subaru, which is very likely why she couldn't affirm it will be the "best path" for him. The fact Beatrice wanted to die because of her contract was a byproduct of the experiment and Echidna was pleased by that even if it wasn't what she expected at first, not understanding her plight. So in Subaru's case, you bet the best ending would take a while since she herself wouldn't even comprehend the definition of it.
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2020-09-24, 11:47 | Link #337 |
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Speaking of Echidna, Tappei Nagatsuki revealed on twitter that Maaya Sakamoto was able to do her big speech in this episode all in one take.
Sasuga Sakamoto-sama .
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2020-09-24, 15:14 | Link #338 | |
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Age: 38
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2020-09-24, 16:15 | Link #339 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The reason I don't believe there's any interpretation trickery and that by "very best" Echidna means the very best from Subaru's perspective and not hers is that if that was the case then she wouldn't have had any problem to claim that she would do so taking the very best path, because from her perspective exploring all possibilities is the very best path. The fact that she couldn't answer "yes" to Subaru's second question, proves to me that Echidna fully understand that when Subaru says "very best" he means the "very best" from his perspective and so that must also apply to the "very best" possible future. Besides what kind of reason would there even be for Echidna to not grant that? She only cares about knowing as much as she can, once she gains the knowledge of all possible resolutions she would get what she wanted and she could tell Subaru the one who is the best for him. She wouldn't really care.
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