2011-09-23, 10:20 | Link #1882 | ||
Haven't You Heard?
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: South-east Asia
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Err--- For someone who throwing herself even after receiving Suzaku advice, An advice come from someone which is she believed as her last defense line in this world full of lies, and choose her father killer just because he saved her right when she's trying to commit suicide ... It's far from heroic. Thanks to Lelouch tears-- I guess ... Make it quite sad because it's rare for Lelouch to shed tears even when he presumed Nunnally is died. Quote:
The moment she chose Lelouch over Suzaku advices, her own experiences, and her valuation for her family. It's clearly a fact that she's completely overdone by her own mindset. Not even a heroic act based on a power of love. Spoiler for Personal Comment:
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2011-09-23, 11:09 | Link #1883 | |
Author
Join Date: Nov 2010
Age: 52
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2011-09-23, 11:17 | Link #1884 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Florida
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2011-09-24, 09:57 | Link #1885 | ||
Haven't You Heard?
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: South-east Asia
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There's a dangerous road. A is in other side of road while B and C is in another side. C is asking for B advice as C need a guidance. B gave advice to C-- that C shouldn't crossing the road because it's dangerous. A is C love interest, and C chose to crossing the road to chase her love interest Ignoring B advice, ended up as a lifeless body. By that logic--- Tell me for what reason I should say her death is a heroic one. Is it really something hero-ic ? If there's someone saying Shirley have a meaningful death, her death is cruel, she is a good girl that haven't overdone or even act as a tool, and everything good so it even need a wall of text. I'm already bored with that, as I already experienced that kind of pleasure in another community as well. If there's need to be continued in a long-term discussion, I'd like to quote my friend as a simplified form for my answer : Honestly, I didn't find anything tragic about her death. To chose your love interest over everything is not something to be proud. Look at her last words. It's not something wonderful-- it's something obsessive. I didn't want to ended up dying as a hopeless person like that. Quote:
Sorry for asking such question like that--- Spoiler for For Your Information:
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2011-09-24, 10:59 | Link #1886 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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As for why Shirley actually tried/wanted to help Lelouch, though, it's surely an amazing love. If you can bother to find the time to defend Kallen or C.C., then you should try looking deeper into the show to find the meaning of Shirley's character. Otherwise, your proclamations of how "deep" the other two are are just simple and subjective opinions. The reason Shirley decided to help Lelouch, just so you know, was not "I'm in love with him". Shirley's memories had been completely messed up, multiple times; it was not past feelings that made her act that way. What Shirley actually did was see through Lelouch's mask (his civilian one and his mask of zero) and understand that, since he had started to fight, Lelouch became all alone in the world. Shirley chased after Lelouch so he could understand "he is not alone anymore". So when Shirley got shot, even then she tried to tell him "because I will be reincarnated, you won't be alone anymore". She tried to give Lelouch peace and trust and a fundamental happiness. What C.C. asked from Lelouch was death or her own happiness. While similarly Kallen asked for hope from Lelouch in return for her loyalty and respect. Shirley was the only character who did not need something from Lelouch, but wanted to give him hope, give him happiness. That is why her death was tragic: because after her death, any chance of Lelouch having an ending where he himself could be happy was practically gone. Seriously, even if the Code Geass forum is pretty dead by now, you should understand that there was a pretty significant force of Shirley supporters here. And that's justified, because Shirley was a great and meaningful supporting character. Don't try to underplay her value in her own character thread, because to be honest, the shallow opinions of disrespectful Kallen and C.C. (or Rolo) fans have gotten boring too. |
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2011-10-17, 10:51 | Link #1889 | |
Haven't You Heard?
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: South-east Asia
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Shirley need Lelouch to be kind to her. She thought by throwing herself to the battlefield, she could get that kind of love she needed. Why she said that she will always love him ? To ensure she got a place in his heart. This isn't really necessary, I guess. FYI--- I've seen how Shirley-like girl ended up in real life during my trip with my relatives. It's not a really good and beautiful experiences like how you imagined Shirley would ended up with Lelouch. Kallen did asked Lelouch to be Zero. But look at her action afterwards. She's trying to take the mask by herself. Look at her reaction when Lelouch guided the submarine, she really didn't expecting Lelouch to return. If she's that kind of girl who always clinging to him, she must be try to commit suicide already. You surely twisted the fact .... I've already met Kallen-like girl in real life also. And that kind of girl really didn't matched your description of always looking for hopes as a return for her devotion. Some message from my friend : Spoiler for :
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2011-10-17, 15:24 | Link #1890 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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Heh. More of this?
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Last edited by Sol Falling; 2011-10-17 at 15:38. |
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2011-10-19, 20:10 | Link #1891 |
~Smile~
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: U.S.A
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Honestly, what this seems like to me more and more on this thread recently is that we aren't allowed to have our own opinions about Shirley without being told they are wrong. I don't mean to be rude...but I really can't understand why people feel the need to come to this thread for a character they dislike so much just to tell us why we shouldn't like her/her with Lelouch. :/ You can have your own opinions, but there really isn't anything to be gained out of telling us our views on the character and her importance to the story/Lelouch aren’t right in a way that makes her seem like one of the most awful creations in anime. All this seems like is "Shirley was not a nice girl, she was nowhere near as good a character as the rest of the cast, she didn't have a genuine love for Lelouch, etc." Personally, I don't go onto the Kallen thread looking to shoot down people's thoughts or argue her place in the story. I may have some unpopular views on shipping her, but I try to be as respectful as possible. (Only using that thread since she was the last character compared to Shirley in this conversation, I don't have any problems with her.)
Sol stated exactly what Shirley's love for Lelouch was, and it was presented that way in the show. Actually there was an episode where they showed a bit of where/when her feelings started to develop and what those feelings were/became. I won't comment on any other characters love for him to avoid shipping wars, but I can say Shirley's were 100% pure, and I think the writers tried to make that as clear as possible.
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2011-10-20, 05:07 | Link #1892 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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shirley is like a school girl who has a crush on the popular guy, that's Shirley for me. His reasons for loving Lelouch just the same with the other school girl but the difference is, it started when Lelouch had that good boy act in front of everyone.
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2011-10-20, 10:54 | Link #1895 |
Philosophos Basileus
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People, people, calm it, jeez. Surely we can all come here and be civil whilst expressing and debating our opinions, without resorting to cheap shots like calling a character "pathetic" or "delusional"? This discussion would actually be pretty interesting if it weren't for all involved seemingly taking it as a personal affront that others don't share their opinion on Shirley, the nature of her love, whether she deserved Lelouch, whatever. That goes for both sides from what I've seen. I know I'm just some random newbie so maybe my word doesn't count for very much, but please, can we all just cool our heads a little?
Anyway, on-topic: my own opinion on Shirley? She's alright. I never hated her or anything, and she facilitated some decent drama during the first half of the Mao arc, but she was never a favourite of mine either. Her death really got to me with its tragedy, though; both the the tragedy in of itself, and the tragedy of the effect it had on Lelouch; as others have rightly noted, it's entirely probable that the Zero Requiem never would have happened, at least not in the form it did, if Shirley had remained alive. As it is, the trauma of losing her and then Nunnally was too much for him, and he only really had C.C. in the end to comfort him over it - which, well, isn't really her strongest point, much as I like her. Shirley may well have been able to talk him out of being quite so suicidal. Or maybe not, but it's still an interesting train of thought. As far as shipping goes, I'm of the Lelouch/harem persuasion, so obviously Shirley gets a look in there! ... as far as pairings go, though, I do prefer Lelouch/C.C., then Lelouch/Kallen. Sorry Shirley fans. Feel free to try to change my mind if you want... in a civilised, polite manner, of course. |
2011-10-20, 13:33 | Link #1896 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: U.S.A
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Thank you for sharing Yamiken, its nice to see an open minded approach, even if you didn't love the character. Your train of thought on if Shirley had lived is a pretty popular one for a lot of fans. Personally, I think she would have kept him from the suicidal path he took in the end. As far as shipping goes, you are free to whatever you enjoy. My preference is Lelouch/Shirley, but in a non-romantic way I found his relationship with C.C to be pretty amazing as they balanced each other well acting like partners in crime.
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2011-10-20, 14:23 | Link #1898 | ||
Philosophos Basileus
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Adding to the idea of Shirley averting the Zero Requiem: it does of course rest on the assumption that the Zero Requiem was a bad thing, or at least that equally good alternatives existed. A lot of people say that Lelouch should've just ruled Britannia well, as he seemed to start doing, but I'm not so sure about this. Whilst Lelouch is undoubtedly brilliant, see, he's at his heart a rebel, a revolutionary, not an establishment figure. He operates by far at his best when he's outside the system, not within it. History itself tells us that such character archetypes often do badly if they are placed in charge of the system, even a new system of their own making - even if they don't fall into outright tyranny, which Lelouch, had he not been pulling a Zero Popularity Gambit, hopefully wouldn't have, they often lack the skills to transform their vision into a reality without a tangible enemy to agitate against - or, if they do manage to successfully transform what they're now in charge of, they just prove to be somewhat incompetent about managing it afterwards, or at least not as suited to doing so as others. Would Lelouch have been able to avoid this? Perhaps, but I'm not convinced. So that's one facet of the objections to the Zero Requiem that I disagree with. ... buuuuuut, that was more about Lelouch than Shirley. ^^; Sorry. Shirley, Shirley, Shirley, what to say about Shirley... okay, here's an idea: what exactly do you think would have happened if Shirley had survived, apart from what's already been discussed? Would she have joined the Black Knights? It seems likely if she was intending to be at Lelouch's side, but one would have thought that might make her uncomfortable... the Black Knights being the organisation that were, directly or indirectly, responsible for her father's death. Admittedly, she's already gone through a similar inner conflict concerning Lelouch himself, of course, and Lelouch came out on top in that, but the difference, naturally, is that she loves Lelouch, whereas the Black Knights...? She is a Britannian, after all, and even if the Black Knights do make a point - when it suits Lelouch, at least - of being against the Britannian state, not the Britannian people, they're still trying to destroy her home nation. That, I'd have thought, would surely make her a little uncomfortable at least, even if she doesn't share the racist nationalism that pervades the thinking and feeling of a lot of her fellow citizens and their government. Oh, and on another unrelated note (sorry!), this time completely and utterly off-topic: who are the characters in your signature? I feel like I should recognise them, but I can't place their names, or the anime they're from. |
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2011-10-20, 15:16 | Link #1899 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: U.S.A
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As far as Shirley if she lived...I think she would have joined the Black Knights despite some awkwardness at the start. I got the impression she was willing to join Lelouch in whatever he was trying to accomplish when she followed him into the danger zone. While she was more focused on helping Lelouch as a person at that time, I think she could come to see the Black Knights as a group who stands for the greater good, or at least put aside any reservations about them for his sake. But at the same time, its hard to say that for sure considering she is Britannian, and for the other reasons you stated, most importantly that their attack unintentionally resulted in her father dying. That's actually a hard topic to get a solid conclusion on for those very reasons...but Shirley's philosophy on life that "nothing is unforgivable" makes me feel like her being a Black Knight could have possibly worked. Quote:
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2011-10-20, 15:36 | Link #1900 | |
Philosophos Basileus
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On a slightly different note, if she did join the Black Knights, what do you think her role would've been? Everyone thinks of Shirley as 'the normal girl who's just there to be female', but if you think about it, she might actually be quite useful to them. She's not stupid, after all, and moreover her swim club activities seem to show that she's quite athletic. And since that seems to be one of the main factors for determining proficiency with a Knightmare Frame (just look at Suzaku and Kallen), that could actually make her pretty skilled at it - hard though it is to think of Shirley in a Knightmare Frame. XD But then, would she have the stomach for combat? It's not really in her nature, after all... what are your thoughts? Ahh, I see. That'd be why I didn't recognise them at once, then; never watched or read that series. Oh well, they look pretty... fun, heh. |
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