2008-03-15, 08:28 | Link #941 | ||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Wind blasts that make the clothing flap are done for effect. When hair and clothing moves, it simply gives more of an image that they are flying at high speeds. |
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2008-03-15, 08:39 | Link #942 | ||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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It is IIRC one of the reasons we don't use spider silk for bulletproofs - yes, they have good strength but they stretch far too much. |
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2008-03-15, 09:17 | Link #943 | ||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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And note that this was a conciously activated Barrier, not an auto generated one. Quote:
I'm clearly seeing a wing hit the jacket and no tear to the skin, though. Quote:
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2008-03-15, 10:05 | Link #944 | ||||||
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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Because its stupid and dangerous not to change unless its effective? |
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2008-03-15, 10:14 | Link #945 | ||||
Loveable Jerk
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Let’s see: 1- The fields are visible 2- They’re being projected into space ahead of the user not hugging the skin like some invisible armor suit. 3- Neither of them is acutally doing anything else spell related when the fields pop up (they're just swinging at each other) 4- Following the above they bear a strong resemblance to the earlier field spell (name escapes me) Signum used to deflect an attack IMO; though over a somewhat smaller area. 5- Also on that note we have probably dozens of examples of punches and kicks among other things impacting unhindered on the target at later times lending more weight to this being an active defensive spell not a passive aspect of the jackets. At best this is an example of a little seen or unnamed defensive spell it’s not any indication of a body encasing invisible force field projected from barrier jackets IMO. Quote:
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2008-03-15, 10:17 | Link #946 | ||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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I've got screenshots too. Your captures were too late: http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/analysis/ss07depress.html Quote:
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2008-03-15, 10:35 | Link #947 | |
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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2008-03-15, 10:35 | Link #948 | ||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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For all we know, when criminals use guns against mages, the mages get clobbered and this is an unseen side of TSAB history. Also, for many decades, entire armies have fought each other without a good defense against guns. Further, there are some real advantages to magic. At the very least, you won't have to risk a gun being found on your body. Even with a gun, after all, a criminal can hardly face down the entire government force. If they are going to send 10 guys to arrest say a murderer that uses magic, but 10000 on seeing a gun, a criminal will probably just think the gun isn't worth the trouble. Quote:
Their master has already said that she isn't going to have them fight, and that's why she won't give them real armor. Under this condition, Wolkenritter, who are technically in a Master-Slave relationship, can hardly object. Quote:
For all we know, Precia might have designed that BJ. Fate will wear it because she loves her "mother". And since it is thin, it provides minimal protection from whips - perfect for Precia. If Fate had been wearing even something like Nanoha's relatively thick BJ, the whip won't cut quite as horribly. While we are on Fate, you will notice that after she got hurt in A's, Bardiche redesigned the BJ. And what is one of the things he did? He added hard guards on the hands! Ahh, now reality starts to peer through - too bad he didn't go far enough Quote:
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2008-03-15, 10:40 | Link #949 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Anyway, not all wounds draw obvious amounts of blood. Do you really want to see poor Rein blow an artery and spill blood all over the scene? Is that scene not humiliating enough?
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2008-03-15, 11:23 | Link #950 | |||||||||
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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Also I did not say the windblast bruise her. From your third screenshot, the wing of the bug pass by that cut up jacket area. The wing of the bug might have bruised her at the point in time. Edit: BTW, what exactly is wrong with my theory anyway? I'll restate it here "The field, produced by the barrier jacket, provides defences by bleeding off excess kinetic energy in proportion to that attack. The more kinetic energy behind the attack, the more energy is bled off and hence the mage gets less damaged" Please state the reason clearly if you don't mind. From what I have seen so far, you just disagree and not actually provided an actual reason. Last edited by tshouryuu; 2008-03-15 at 12:12. |
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2008-03-15, 12:17 | Link #951 | |
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Join Date: May 2007
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At a glance, the theory also seems to be unfalsifiable. If a theory isn't testable it is meaningless.
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2008-03-15, 12:33 | Link #952 | ||||||||||
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For example, take Scarlietti. He's clearly different from most. At least he knows how to perform a radio intercept, which puts him heads and shoulders above the TSAB. But even he doesn't use, for example, HV ammunition. His cyborgs wind up using energy bombs that are ridiculously similar to magic anyway. That's a very visible example of how Zeitgeist limits all. Which is why I don't blame the TSAB for poor tactics so much as I blame Hayate. Hayate came from Earth, Earth zeitgeist! Quote:
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Inner jacket under Armpit = H230-250, S60-70%, V=20% = Very Dark Blue Torn area = H=230-240, S30-40%, V=30-35% = Grayish. It clearly isn't the inner layer, all right. Quote:
Face it, the bug's windblast penetrated the entire protective complex whatever you want its composition to be. Quote:
Right now, you hadn't even explained how you expect that "excess kinetic energy" to be "bled off", which is one of the reasons why it is hard to kick it right now - there's nothing to kick (which is different from your theory being strong enough to be resistant to kicking). And don't say "magic" - that's just an unfalsifiable black box. Magic does not mean you don't need to propose at least some mechanism, how you want the magic to help you bleed the energy away. And how are you planning to bleed away the force and pressure. Problem #2: Except in restricted cases, it is difficult to envisage a physical mechanisms where the total force, pressure and energy transferred to the victim is reduced when the initial input is higher. In those restrictive cases, it involves the destructive deformation forces and energies being transferred to the penetrator because the blocking shield is tougher. Since a BJ is soft and fluffy, this does not apply, and in any case any such defense will be highly situational. Problem #3: Why do we even need such an convoluted theory? |
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2008-03-15, 12:52 | Link #953 | ||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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She gets tossed through buildings twice in the second episode of A's and shakes it off, and while the first one can be defended, the second one definetely can't. Quote:
Suuuuure, that's really effective. Quote:
Strange, no? Quote:
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Stings too. Skin generally isn't dark blue either. |
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2008-03-15, 13:30 | Link #954 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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If you want a slow motion scene, fine - there isn't enough noise in that particular scene to forbid it at least, but then the real speed of the blade going tangentially through the complex goes up, suggesting the defensive complex was even less effective than depicted. Maybe you wanted a fast scene Quote:
You will also notice that the blocking was almost effective. Even though the quickly placed Defenser cracked under the high pressure of a hard, sharp object called Laevanteinn, the velocity was slowed enough it just hit relatively lightly. Can you imagine that jacket doing the same? But Graf Eisen definitely discharged the cartridges after the Raketenhammer. Quote:
There are real limits to how strong the windblast could be, since the bug is just using enough force to keep itself level. It is not in some 10000G ascent. There's probably a vortex involved, but anyway you cut it, it is a most pathetic scene. Quote:
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As for competence, see the answer to tsuushoryu. You'll notice "they are stupid" is not my main line. The main line is physical limitations of such thin and fluffy things as barrier jackets are shown to be. The "they are stupid" is just to knock off appeals to authority. Quote:
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Oh, as for "my" logic, how about the logic of reality. Quote:
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2008-03-15, 14:31 | Link #955 | ||
Loveable Jerk
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2008-03-15, 14:45 | Link #956 | ||||||||||||
Residential Nutcase
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Outer Cadia
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Anyway, what the theory could explain is
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As for Jail not using HV ammo, is it because of Zeitgeist limiting him or could it be that HV ammo simply not effective in the first place? Also blaming Hayate is extremely unfair to her. She may have lived on Earth but the TSAB trains her. Quote:
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Then how would you explain how Fate survive getting slammed through multiply layers of concrete with her barrier jacket completely undamaged but can get cut by Signum? |
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2008-03-15, 21:41 | Link #957 | |||||||||||||||||||||
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Quite frankly, if I'm an paramilitary officer, I'll be very interested in what other nations' militaries and police think about military and police matters. The Americans study Soviet military thought, and in fact incorporated some ideas when they scribbled up AirLand battle. The Soviets analyzed the West and still do as they attempt to solve the problem of professionalizing in a way acceptable to their very different military culture. And the idea of us being primitive societies thus unworthy of study doesn't work - we are still studying Sun Tzu ourselves. And so on. Quote:
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And again, criminals survive by keeping a low profile. By the time they get into a gunfight with the police they've lost 3/4ths of the battle. Even if they did have to use violence against law-enforcement, smart thinking says to do it in a way that will not provoke the police into providing too many reinforcements. That's a criminal's way of survival outside a prison, not shooting cops left and right with your sleazy new Desert Eagle. Quote:
You might conceal a gun. Then comes the day you use it. Even with a silencer (which reduces the velocity of the bullets and thus its big advantage) guns are noisy with a distinct acoustic signature. The survivors of your ambush run back and report a mass weapon, the TSAB comes on you like a frantic set of bricks. When they get you, assuming you are alive, they charge you for violating State Security and give you a penalty ten times of what you might otherwise have taken. You can bet no prosecutor (from Fate's case, we learn that there is no such thing as a lawyer in TSAB, Chrono, technically her prosecutor, tells her how to answer instead of a lawyer!) will give you any mercy or push for anything but the Ultimate Penalty. Still interested? Quote:
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At the end of the war, They are obviously in a state of shock, so 99.99% of them are anti-gun. The 0.0001% that still like guns are crushed by sheer weight of numbers. Quote:
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Induction goes like this: There are many examples where BJs are almost useless against impactors. Thus, I can conclude that they won't be stopping bullets. Counter induction goes like this: Despite the fact that only under extremely restricted conditions can a higher KE input realistically result in less transfer to the victim, I insist that this is what happens. Quote:
2) Inertial dampening. 3) Even an anti-magic coating on the strikes allowing better penetration, while hardly my first choice due to increased complexity, is nothing compared to the problems of a theory in whcih higher KE and force inputs consistently result in less force and KE transmitted to the mage. Quote:
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2008-03-15, 23:57 | Link #958 | |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Besides, remember that at their core the TSAB, sadly, are essentially magical riot cops and SWAT. It's very likey there is a school of thought that goes "Why bother study this military crap, it has no relevance to anything we do!" I am aware that is a stupid paradigm, but it does jive with the whole "TSAB are idiots" school of thought which ark and TK subscribe to. Y'all don't know how many times I have been told by companies that Leadership Skills training is irrelevant and has nothing to do at all with their companies. *sighs* Also, consider that she may well consider, "Eh, I'm in the TSAB, what does this have to do with me? I won't bother." There's precedent for this: Hayate has been shown in the manga refusing to work on taking care of herself in a close-range fight because as she puts it, she's artillery, why does she need to worry about close range? (Paraphrased. Nevermind that in real armies arty gun crews DO train for when the OMGWTF threat suddenly appears. Mulcahy v Ministry of Defence, British Army gun crew in Gulf War 1 blasted a T-72 at point-blank range (for arty, anyway.)) Also, considering that the manga implies that her life in teh TSAB was really hectic, she may well have decided that Earth = Home = Don't Think About Work. And realistically... if she's going to school, regularly running missions, and juggling homework, it'd be hard to look up and research all these things. I can do it because I spent a year plus skipping classes and reading up on stuff. Ironically now that I'm taking a break from college and working, I don't have much time to read up on these things either. Hayate's failings as a commanding officer are partly her, and also partly because of the institution which trained her. And since it's mentioned that she apprenticed under Genya, he shares some of the blame as well. One more thing to consider: The US viewed the Soviets as their main threat when they wrote up AirLand Battle (which was later scrubbed for Network-Centric Warfare), and Gen. Petraus lead the school of thought that counterinsurgency is a main threat, forming the impetuous behind FM-23, the US Army counterinsurgency field manual. In both cases, there is a visible threat which US planners planned against. We have no indications of the TSAB facing an outward threat that would require the sort of planning, wargaming and study that lead to AirLand Battle and FM-23. To be fair, it's possible that the TSAB may have done this, concluded that their main focus should be on constabulary and stabilisation operations, and thus they're geared to that, much as how the US Army has concluded that COIN ops should now be a focus of the Army, resulting in Army-wide dessimation of FM-23.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-03-16 at 01:29. |
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