AnimeSuki Forums

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2006-10-31, 03:32

Hmm...I'd probably have to go with the Sazabi overall...dunno why, lol.

Another one I thought was interesting...

MSA-0011[Ext] Ex-S Gundam vs. RX-93 Nu Gundam (trying to come up with other challenges)

Nightengale · 2006-10-31, 03:58

Everything from UC? That naturally includes Ideon.

Turn A and Turn X loses, when a white wave of power obliterates Turn-A and Turn-X from god knows where.

M_Flores · 2006-10-31, 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Hmm...I'd probably have to go with the Sazabi overall...dunno why, lol.

Another one I thought was interesting...

MSA-0011[Ext] Ex-S Gundam vs. RX-93 Nu Gundam (trying to come up with other challenges)

What u mean u dunno why? lol
∞ Justice will perform taxidermy on Sazabi

RX-93 HI-NU · 2006-10-31, 09:39

If you are going to use the upgraded form of Justice, you might as well use the Nightengale instead of sazabi.

megakim · 2006-10-31, 11:13

iirc the nightengale is so bulky that its speed suffers a lot.

RX-93 HI-NU · 2006-10-31, 11:48

It offsets its weight by having a crapload of thrusters though, and IJ would have a hell of a time trying to close in on it due to the fact that the Nightengale is a funnel whore.

4Tran · 2006-10-31, 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Flores

Run out of power? I thought Turn A had almost over 25000kW power output, which was almost more than double of Justice's and Freedom's output alone, and Turn X's was even rated higher. And didn't the Moonlight butterfly basically affect... everything?

I may have worded that poorly. I wasn't really talking about power per se. I was just referring to its general endurance. We've never seen Turn A operate independently for any appreciable length of time, so there's no reason to think that it can do so indefinitely. Turn A's peak power output is utterly irrelevant. Heck, the power output of mobile suits have never been relevant in any vs. debate since it's a figure that tells us nothing about performance, firepower, endurance, or anything important.

Based on the way the Moonlight Butterfly is visually depicted, it makes for a pathetic weapon. Only utter idiots would be seriously threatened by it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX-93 HI-NU

If you are going to use the upgraded form of Justice, you might as well use the Nightengale instead of sazabi.

The reason that Nightengale makes for a poor choice is because we know very little about its capabilities. Its increased dimensions over Sazabi would suggest that it would make for an easier target. Simply having more thrusters does not necessarily improve acceleration, and may even reduce it.

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2006-10-31, 14:56

Considering it is a powerful opponent against even the RX-93-2 Hi-Nu Gundam, it's hard to say...

4Tran · 2006-10-31, 15:20

That doesn't really help much. We don't really know much about Hi-Nu Gundam either.

M_Flores · 2006-10-31, 20:59

Don't make me do this:

Spoiler:

RX-78GP04G Gerbera · 2006-10-31, 23:36

UC-bias go!!!!! XD

RX-93 HI-NU · 2006-11-01, 00:29

Well now that you suggested that matchup, its going to be long before this thread degrades into flames. >_>

4Tran · 2006-11-01, 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Flores

∞ Justice Gundam + Strike Freedom Gundam

VS

Nightengale + Hi-Nu Gundam

Given that Nightengale and Hi-Nu Gundam's capabilities are completely unquantified, there really isn't a basis for comparison.

M_Flores · 2006-11-01, 01:45

Yeah, but judging from armaments alone (I know weapons are not everything), SF can basically match anything Hi-n has (we're not talking pilots here coz that's cheating, since Amuro can probably just fuck with Kira's mind, etc.), except for the fact that the fin funnels can form that shield. However, SF has beam shields which can probably block almost anything that Hi-n can present, and also SF has the advantage of handsfree weapons. Hi-n might have bazooka, beam cannon, rifle, etc. but remember SF has the chest cannon, rail guns plus its rifles can join together and form a more powerful one.

The Nightingale, based on MAHQ profile, I assume would probably be just a big red Legend Gundam without beam shields or melee weapon, so I don't see how it could be too scary. However, as mentioned before, nothing is solid on Hi-n or NG for the moment, so the only thing we can argue about are the weapons.
As for ∞ Justice, I dont see why it cant block or dodge funnels. Once it closes in on any of the two (or perhaps, three) suits, its pretty much one-sided, I'd think.

srb · 2006-11-01, 05:21

Psycoframes = über-fluff. That's why cross-universe comparisons suck, because they have different kinds of background fluff. Also, mentally controlled funnels > computer positioned DRAGOONs.

neilz · 2006-11-01, 07:33

I'll go with the CE because the UC has a pilot requirement to work well. (This is the only thing I can base on since like everyone else there's no sample of both UC suits in action) and the limited action of IJ in Destiny.

4Tran · 2006-11-01, 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by srb

Psycoframes = über-fluff. That's why cross-universe comparisons suck, because they have different kinds of background fluff.

This is true only to an extent; if we can quantify the fluff into performance figures, then it's quite easy to make a comparison. If we can't quantify the fluff in any meaningful way, then it probably wouldn't make much difference anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by srb

Also, mentally controlled funnels > computer positioned DRAGOONs.

Why would you say that? Do you have any numbers to back up that argument, or is just an assumption based on a description of their processes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilz

I'll go with the CE because the UC has a pilot requirement to work well. (This is the only thing I can base on since like everyone else there's no sample of both UC suits in action) and the limited action of IJ in Destiny.

I think that it'd be more fair to assume that all mobile suits are used to the limits of their capabilities. If we were contemplating whether or not to mass produce these units, then your criteria becomes vastly more important - probably more than enough reason not to build the UC suits.

srb · 2006-11-01, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Why would you say that? Do you have any numbers to back up that argument, or is just an assumption based on a description of their processes?

Because the direct mental control method is superior to a pattern calculated by a computer. It'd be like two modern jet fighters squaring off against each other, except that one has a HOTAS setup and angled seat while the other one has an old flight yoke and a straight seat. One of the methods is better and most likely yields better results. Based on the animated sequences of both systems in action, the direct-controlled funnels maneuver and evade a whole lot better, and even dogfight with each other, while the DRAGOONs never even target another DRAGOON. If I could use funnels and were facing DRAGOONs I would target and destroy them first.

Quote:

If we can't quantify the fluff in any meaningful way, then it probably wouldn't make much difference anyways.

I'd say that the pilot's ability to directly influence and control the movement of the mobile suit with his mind is quite a big difference.

4Tran · 2006-11-01, 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by srb

Because the direct mental control method is superior to a pattern calculated by a computer. It'd be like two modern jet fighters squaring off against each other, except that one has a HOTAS setup and angled seat while the other one has an old flight yoke and a straight seat. One of the methods is better and most likely yields better results.

That's not a very good comparison since the reason we know that a HOTAS setup is superior is that we can quantify its effectiveness and that of its predecessor. Without such quantification, a comparison based solely on the processes would be little more than guesswork.

Quote:

Originally Posted by srb

I'd say that the pilot's ability to directly influence and control the movement of the mobile suit with his mind is quite a big difference.

Again, without quantification, making such a positive statement based is a leap in logic. Simply because a mechanism sounds fancy doesn't necessarily mean that it will also translate to superior performance. How that performance is achieved is far less important than what that performance actually is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by srb

Based on the animated sequences of both systems in action, the direct-controlled funnels maneuver and evade a whole lot better, and even dogfight with each other, while the DRAGOONs never even target another DRAGOON. If I could use funnels and were facing DRAGOONs I would target and destroy them first.

The funnels in Char's Counterattack don't seem to be appreciably more maneuverable than the DRAGOONs in Destiny. In fact, it's possible to say that the animation suggests that it's the DRAGOONs which are more maneuverable. After all, there are practical reasons why you'd want to prioritize targeting an enemy mobile suit over its remote weapons. Again, do you have numbers to back your arguments up, or you just basing them on your intuition?

M_Flores · 2006-11-01, 18:50

Considering there are no numbers, all we can do is guesstimate and give our opinion/theories.

Like 4Tran stated, I reckon we should assume that all suits are challenged to the limits of their performance. Besides, who says pilot's abilities wont/don't make mistakes? Would you bet on that or a computer targeting system that does all the calculations for you?
That's why we make this assumption that all suits, regardless of pilot (unless pilots are stated), are challenged to the limits of their performance.

We can't solidly prove that Psyco frame > Quantum Communication, but all we can do is guess.
In fact, a newtype having to control all six funnels at once very rapidly I'd assume can be very stressful rather than an advanced computer targeting system that controls all eight dragoons and does all the work for you.

If you wanted to talk about pilots, what if Amuro was in SF? So what if SF doesnt have Psyco frame? Rau was able to control dragoons even though Providence didnt have psyco frame or quantum comm, etc.
I don't see how fin funnels and super dragoons are too different in manuverability and power, except I'd say fin funnels are superior in its ability to create a shield. (in which, Akatsuki's dragoons should probably be the most superior remote weapons, being able to do all that, PLUS reflect beams XD)

Also based on animated sequences and the STOCK footage seen in GSD, one could also assume that ep.50, just after the intro, SF's and Legends Dragoons were firing/dogfighting at each other as well as the main units (you can see a random explosion near SF, but away from it). So I don't see (since we dont have much official stats or footage) why fin funnels are vastly superior to dragoons, other than the fact that they can form a shield (excluding shiranui akatsuki).

Aside from that, contrary to Hi-n's hyper bazooka's, launchers, etc., SF has rail cannons to match in the shell-firing weapons category. Hi-n also has a beam cannon and beam rifle, while SF has chest cannon and TWO rifles that can combine into a more powerful one, so pound for pound, SF can match Hi-n when it comes to ranged weapons. Melee however, Hi-n has these... custom beam sabers which differ in style and shape compared to traditional ones - but I dont think this really gives too much advantage anyway. If Hi-n and SF were in saberlock, Hi-n would have to look out for the chest cannon and rail guns while trying to get through beam shields. SF only needs to get through a solid shield and beamsaber.

However, this fight is a team battle so, I'll bring in ∞ Justice and Nightingale later when I'm not lazy.

2006-10-31, 03:32	Link #961
RX-78GP04G Gerbera Whoosh! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Albany Age: 38	reply Hmm...I'd probably have to go with the Sazabi overall...dunno why, lol. Another one I thought was interesting... MSA-0011[Ext] Ex-S Gundam vs. RX-93 Nu Gundam (trying to come up with other challenges) __________________ "I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet "Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning "Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon

2006-10-31, 03:58	Link #962
Nightengale ~Night of Gales~ Author Join Date: Dec 2005	Everything from UC? That naturally includes Ideon. Turn A and Turn X loses, when a white wave of power obliterates Turn-A and Turn-X from god knows where. __________________ *Night~and~Gale: ~ The Final Mythology of the Man who Defied Destiny.* The sleeping lion shall awaken beyond the depths of time, crossing ten billion lights, come to Terra.

2006-10-31, 14:56	Link #968
RX-78GP04G Gerbera Whoosh! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Albany Age: 38	reply Considering it is a powerful opponent against even the RX-93-2 Hi-Nu Gundam, it's hard to say... __________________ "I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet "Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning "Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon

2006-10-31, 15:20	Link #969
4Tran Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	That doesn't really help much. We don't really know much about Hi-Nu Gundam either. __________________ The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won...

2006-10-31, 20:59	Link #970
M_Flores Count of Monte Dorifto Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Isla De Monte Dorifto	Don't make me do this: Spoiler: ∞ Justice Gundam + Strike Freedom Gundam VS Nightengale + Hi-Nu Gundam

2006-10-31, 09:39	Link #964
RX-93 HI-NU Awesome Join Date: Dec 2005	If you are going to use the upgraded form of Justice, you might as well use the Nightengale instead of sazabi.

2006-10-31, 11:13	Link #965
megakim For a blue and pure world Join Date: Dec 2004	iirc the nightengale is so bulky that its speed suffers a lot.

2006-10-31, 11:48	Link #966
RX-93 HI-NU Awesome Join Date: Dec 2005	It offsets its weight by having a crapload of thrusters though, and IJ would have a hell of a time trying to close in on it due to the fact that the Nightengale is a funnel whore.

2006-10-31, 23:36	Link #971
RX-78GP04G Gerbera Whoosh! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Albany Age: 38	reply UC-bias go!!!!! XD __________________ "I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet "Come on! I don't feel like losing!" - Johnny Ridden, The Crimson Lightning "Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon

2006-11-01, 00:29	Link #972
RX-93 HI-NU Awesome Join Date: Dec 2005	Well now that you suggested that matchup, its going to be long before this thread degrades into flames. >_>

2006-11-01, 01:45	Link #974
M_Flores Count of Monte Dorifto Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Isla De Monte Dorifto	Yeah, but judging from armaments alone (I know weapons are not everything), SF can basically match anything Hi-n has (we're not talking pilots here coz that's cheating, since Amuro can probably just fuck with Kira's mind, etc.), except for the fact that the fin funnels can form that shield. However, SF has beam shields which can probably block almost anything that Hi-n can present, and also SF has the advantage of handsfree weapons. Hi-n might have bazooka, beam cannon, rifle, etc. but remember SF has the chest cannon, rail guns plus its rifles can join together and form a more powerful one. The Nightingale, based on MAHQ profile, I assume would probably be just a big red Legend Gundam without beam shields or melee weapon, so I don't see how it could be too scary. However, as mentioned before, nothing is solid on Hi-n or NG for the moment, so the only thing we can argue about are the weapons. As for ∞ Justice, I dont see why it cant block or dodge funnels. Once it closes in on any of the two (or perhaps, three) suits, its pretty much one-sided, I'd think.

2006-11-01, 05:21	Link #975
srb I can see time itself! Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Kingdom of Sweden Age: 37	Psycoframes = über-fluff. That's why cross-universe comparisons suck, because they have different kinds of background fluff. Also, mentally controlled funnels > computer positioned DRAGOONs.

2006-11-01, 07:33	Link #976
neilz Member Join Date: Aug 2006	I'll go with the CE because the UC has a pilot requirement to work well. (This is the only thing I can base on since like everyone else there's no sample of both UC suits in action) and the limited action of IJ in Destiny.

2006-11-01, 18:50	Link #980
M_Flores Count of Monte Dorifto Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Isla De Monte Dorifto	Considering there are no numbers, all we can do is guesstimate and give our opinion/theories. Like 4Tran stated, I reckon we should assume that all suits are challenged to the limits of their performance. Besides, who says pilot's abilities wont/don't make mistakes? Would you bet on that or a computer targeting system that does all the calculations for you? That's why we make this assumption that all suits, regardless of pilot (unless pilots are stated), are challenged to the limits of their performance. We can't solidly prove that Psyco frame > Quantum Communication, but all we can do is guess. In fact, a newtype having to control all six funnels at once very rapidly I'd assume can be very stressful rather than an advanced computer targeting system that controls all eight dragoons and does all the work for you. If you wanted to talk about pilots, what if Amuro was in SF? So what if SF doesnt have Psyco frame? Rau was able to control dragoons even though Providence didnt have psyco frame or quantum comm, etc. I don't see how fin funnels and super dragoons are too different in manuverability and power, except I'd say fin funnels are superior in its ability to create a shield. (in which, Akatsuki's dragoons should probably be the most superior remote weapons, being able to do all that, PLUS reflect beams XD) Also based on animated sequences and the STOCK footage seen in GSD, one could also assume that ep.50, just after the intro, SF's and Legends Dragoons were firing/dogfighting at each other as well as the main units (you can see a random explosion near SF, but away from it). So I don't see (since we dont have much official stats or footage) why fin funnels are vastly superior to dragoons, other than the fact that they can form a shield (excluding shiranui akatsuki). Aside from that, contrary to Hi-n's hyper bazooka's, launchers, etc., SF has rail cannons to match in the shell-firing weapons category. Hi-n also has a beam cannon and beam rifle, while SF has chest cannon and TWO rifles that can combine into a more powerful one, so pound for pound, SF can match Hi-n when it comes to ranged weapons. Melee however, Hi-n has these... custom beam sabers which differ in style and shape compared to traditional ones - but I dont think this really gives too much advantage anyway. If Hi-n and SF were in saberlock, Hi-n would have to look out for the chest cannon and rail guns while trying to get through beam shields. SF only needs to get through a solid shield and beamsaber. However, this fight is a team battle so, I'll bring in ∞ Justice and Nightingale later when I'm not lazy.