[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Sethalak

This thinking game has his own difficulty... Maybe that was the aim of Ryukishi He wrote in the afterword of the 2nd Volume of the higurashi manga that he wants to drown the readers in the sea of keys. That's true for Umineko, too.
Additionally, people like me beginning with Umineko late (i.e. 201X, exactly November 2014) don't have the advantage to discuss the plot in 'real-time'. Speaking in terms of time Umineko is now old.

Another question: I don't get why Battler's return in 1986 was that bad. Bernkastel and Will said that 1985 or 1987 would be fine, but 1986 was bad. I haven't recognized the reason for it.

He picked up a bad time in every sense possible.
Basically in 1986 Sayo was under a lot of stress as Jessica was in love with Kanon and George was pressuring Shannon into engaging with him.
She felt she had to choose George but spent her nights fearing once he were to know the truth he would reject her and believing herself to be inadeguate.
All this complicated by the fact that, despite everything, she loved Battler more than George but had no idea if he remembered about her.

If Battler had turned one year sooner, Jessica wouldn't have had expressed her love for Kanon yet and George wouldn't have gotten that far with Shannon.
In short Sayo wouldn't have spent lot of sleepless nights tormenting herself over what to do. She would have probably been still anxious at the idea that Battler could be back but she would probably be in a lot of less stress and would have handled things better.

If Battler had turned one year later, by that time she should have already been engaged with George or have rejected him or have killed herself in fear he wouldn't accept her. Again she would have been not as stressed as she was.

Battler coming back in 1986 is also a bad time due tot the situation the adults are in. In 1986 the adults were in serious financial problems and Krauss' plan to hid Kinzo's death wasn't believable any longer.
Sayo's game was all they needed to start shooting at each other.

If Battler had returned sooner the adults wouldn't have been so desperate and one against the other so no shooting would have ensued, if Battler had returned later... well, either they had already killed each other off over the gold or whatever else or had found an agreement and weren't planning to murder each other anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Sethalak

What was the last year Battler had visited Rokkenjima before he left the Ushiromiya family? Was it 1979 oder 1980?

1980

[Sethalak]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

If Battler had returned sooner the adults wouldn't have been so desperate and one against the other so no shooting would have ensued, if Battler had returned later... well, either they had already killed each other off over the gold or whatever else or had found an agreement and weren't planning to murder each other anytime soon.

But how could Battler's mere presence to prevent the adults killing each other?

She felt she had to choose George but spent her nights fearing once he were to know the truth he would reject her and believing herself to be inadeguate.

And with "truth" do you mean, that she actually loves Battler or that she have multiple personalities? --> I don't understand, how Sayo can also exist als "shannon" at the same time ...
Umineko is solvable without magic, right? Then, why does exist a "meta world"? Why can I (and all other characters in the series) "see" "Shannon" although she should be Sayo / Claire / Beatrice whatever? Ah damn.

Thank you for the explanation!

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Sethalak

But how could Battler's mere presence to prevent the adults killing each other?

He doesn't prevent the adults from killing each others.
The murder game exists as a game between Sayo and (an unwilling) Battler. If Battler doesn't come back she believes she wouldn't have thought about making it.In 1986 with her game Sayo encouraged the adults, who were under stress and in really bad terms among them to solve the epitaph. As they do, see the gold and the guns they start to argue and tragedy ensues.
Sayo thinks that if she hadn't encouraged the adults to solve the epitaph they wouldn't have tried doing it, therefore wouldn't have solved it, wouldn't have argued in the room of the gold and wouldn't have ended up shooting at each other.

Truth to be told the adults could have tried solving the epitaph anyway and things could have gone just in the same way but she's not considering this option.

Originally Posted by Sethalak

And with "truth" do you mean, that she actually loves Battler or that she have multiple personalities? -->

Sayo doesn't have multiple personalities. The 'truth' is the sad state of her body (her genitals got damaged, she can't have children and it's strongly implied that her chromosomes were XY and not XX but she had been raised into the belief she had XX chromosomes).
She thinks that, due to it, no one would accept her but they would be all disgusted.

Originally Posted by Sethalak

I don't understand, how Sayo can also exist als "shannon" at the same time ...

Sayo IS Shannon. Shannon is merely her working name as the Ushiromiya rename each orphan that comes from Fukuin orphanage with a name ending with the kanji 'on'.
However on work Sayo isn't free to express herself but has to act in a certain way. That's why Shannon is considered a 'persona' and not the true Sayo (though a good part of Shannon reflects the true Sayo).
Keep in mind she's basically living in her workplace so she's playing a role for most of her day.
Kanon is a disguise Sayo started to wear when she though her life could be happier if she were a boy. He's born more as a way to express certain emotions that wouldn't be proper for Shannon to express (girls can't act in ways in whcih boys are allowed to act). In a way he's also a persona as she also had to make sure that in some things he would be different from Shannon so they wouldn't recognize her.
Beatrice is also a disguise Sayo uses to play pranks. Under Beatrice's identity she can prank others (like she did when she caused the key to disappear) without consequences, a thing Sayo isn't allowed to do. Beatrice acts in a way Sayo thinks should be fitting for a witch sos he's also a persona.

In short, there's just Sayo playing 3 roles.

Originally Posted by Sethalak

Umineko is solvable without magic, right? Then, why does exist a "meta world"? Why can I (and all other characters in the series) "see" "Shannon" although she should be Sayo / Claire / Beatrice whatever? Ah damn.

Thank you for the explanation!

The meta isn't magic. The meta is the idea the characters' souls ended up in Purgatory and from there can discuss among them a story and view it as if it was played in front of them.

It's tied with some Japanese beliefs I'm not the best expert to explain.

In the west we've different beliefs concerning souls and the otherwords, if objects can aquire a soul or not and if souls of the living can wander around so for us it's a bit more complicate to grasp the meta.

Going back to why we can see... let's say Shannon and Beatrice at the same time during one of the games... well that's because the narrator is lying.

However as we're shown what the narrator is saying and not what it's truly happening we can see them at the same time.

[Sethalak]

WoW, WoW, WoW ... This "truth" can you only reason if you know the detail from the damaged body but I don't remember such a detail in the episodes. Whatever! >.<
Thank you so much

What's with Claire and her connection to Sayo? The Tips mode says, that Claire is a soulless? vessel, created by Bernkastel?!

Since EP7 Tea party I've thought that the narrator could be a liar.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Sethalak

WoW, WoW, WoW ... This "truth" can you only reason if you know the detail from the damaged body but I don't remember such a detail in the episodes. Whatever! >.<
Thank you so much

You can reason it out. There are hints to it. It's just not spelled out loud and not really easy to reason out so it's okay to find it difficult as the details are really subtle.

Ep 8 manga version can help you to connect the dots. That or re-reading the whole VN (or the manga).

Originally Posted by Sethalak

What's with Claire and her connection to Sayo? The Tips mode says, that Claire is a soulless? vessel, created by Bernkastel?!

Yes, that's what she is.

Originally Posted by Sethalak

Since EP7 Tea party I've thought that the narrator could be a liar.

Ironically the Ep 7 Tea Party is the truth.

[Sethalak]

I don't get one thing from the riddle of EP8:

Battler and Beatrice reason that the culprit of the first twillight could have killed the five others and then played dead. After that, he/she committed the 2. Twillight und was trapped in Natsuhis Room.
Battler and Beatrice said, that one of their children (Battler, George or Maria) must be one of the accomplices. And I don't get that thing. It is also possible, that there were two culprits of the first twillight: the first one commited four murders and then both played dead. After that, the same person killed Natsuhi and Krauss.
Afterwards, the accomplice (from the first twillight) could commit twillight 4 and so on.
I don't get why it must be one of the children??!

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Sethalak

I don't get one thing from the riddle of EP8:

Battler and Beatrice reason that the culprit of the first twillight could have killed the five others and then played dead. After that, he/she committed the 2. Twillight und was trapped in Natsuhis Room.
Battler and Beatrice said, that one of their children (Battler, George or Maria) must be one of the accomplices. And I don't get that thing. It is also possible, that there were two culprits of the first twillight: the first one commited four murders and then both played dead. After that, the same person killed Natsuhi and Krauss.
Afterwards, the accomplice (from the first twillight) could commit twillight 4 and so on.
I don't get why it must be one of the children??!

Only a culprit can lie with purple.
The children testified in purple that their parents were dead (therefore they weren't pretending to be dead). If one of the parents was pretending to be dead, the child lied and so he's an accomplice that either killed or will kill someone as well.

[marianx]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The whole sentence:



can be interpreted:

until you tear away the illusion hiding me and find the true me, the one with whom you exchanged a promise (= the girl who loved you, waited for you and tried to become your ideal woman).

Sayo wants him to find HER, the person with whom he made a promise a promise that he was FINALLY about to keep when she died. She wants him to find the motive for which she's doing all this, as he's the one who claimed to care about motives. She wants him to understand her.

However, if Battler had only remembered he made a promise with Shannon but hadn't connected it to Beatrice, for Beatrice there wouldn't be much point in him remembering.

In a way you're right in saying that the promise is the core of Umineko as the promise is the motive that pushes MetaBeatrice to play such a game with Battler. But just Battler remembering the promise without recognizing it as a motive would have no meaning for Beatrice.

That's why just remembering isn't the goal for me. Battler needs also to connect the dots. At least that's my interpretation.

This, of course, doesn't stop you from coming up with a different theory on what Beatrice wanted, why she wanted it and how she went to archieve her goal.

Umineko allows everyone to come up with his own theory after all.

if this is really true, why in the manga does battler have such a reaction after finding the promise? he even says " this eternal torture was orchestrated by me" inside of the manga. really if thats why beatrice did all this, battlers reaction makes zero sense. hes far too kind for a culprit that went to those depraved lengths. also the manga, the official translated version makes it very clear the promise was beatrices goal. what you said makes sense, but if that really is true i cant sympathize with beatrice

[AuraTwilight]

It's because he sympathizes with Beatrice and recognizes he's one of the main underpinnings for her madness and suffering.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by marianx

if this is really true, why in the manga does battler have such a reaction after finding the promise? he even says " this eternal torture was orchestrated by me" inside of the manga. really if thats why beatrice did all this, battlers reaction makes zero sense. hes far too kind for a culprit that went to those depraved lengths. also the manga, the official translated version makes it very clear the promise was beatrices goal. what you said makes sense, but if that really is true i cant sympathize with beatrice

Because Battler is 'responsible' for what had happened.
He was the unwilling cause of her desperation and what lead her to develop her plan who ended up in such way in Prime and, ultimately, he couldn't keep her alive. When they ended in the Purgatory he was amnesiac so she started her own game, which was painful for the both of them, a torture.

Now, Battler didn't mean to do ill, but in Umineko (and in many other Japanese tales) you're accounted as responsible for the consequences of your actions/inactions regardless of your intentions.

Also note that Sayo isn't really a culprit. In Prime she killed no one, actually in Prime she saved his life (and tried to save the lives of the others). She just planned to then, when they got into the Purgatory, showed Battler those plans as if they were the truth of Prime. Ultimately though she's showing him only tales.
Apart for Ep 7 Teaparty, none of them is the truth.

That's fine if you don't sympathize with Sayo. Battler instead decided to do it.

[jjblue1]

I've discovered that the Umineko wikia gives off the ages of the Ushiromiya siblings claiming they are:
Krauss: 52
Eva: 50
Rudolf: 40
Rosa: 35

Is there some official source for this or did they make it up? Because I can't find it being mentioned anywhere in the VN or in the official timeline...

[Mali]

Maybe in the PS3 material with Character Sheets?
Going by in-game numbers Krauss should be at least 48 years old unless Natsuhi was younger, but I don't think.
But George is 22 years old (Jessica is 18) that means Eva had an 'advantage' of 4 up to 8 years. So Krauss could be at most 56 years old and Eva 54y.
Rudolf/Rosa should be clear.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

Maybe in the PS3 material with Character Sheets?
Going by in-game numbers Krauss should be at least 48 years old unless Natsuhi was younger, but I don't think.
But George is 22 years old (Jessica is 18) that means Eva had an 'advantage' of 4 up to 8 years. So Krauss could be at most 56 years old and Eva 54y.
Rudolf/Rosa should be clear.

The VN states that Natsuhi is 3 years younger than Eva and that George is 23.
While I don't have the full booklet in the pictures I have which showing the PS3 character sheets I can't see any reference to the characters age or birthyear.

[Mali]

I didn't know Natsuhi's age depends on Eva's, too.
George's birthdate is 16th March according to the wikia. Umineko timeline states this:

If Battler's statement about George "probably turning 23 this year" is correct, he was born in a narrow range in 1963. However, Battler also says that he is 18, and George is five years older than him. This creates a contradiction since Battler would have to have been born earlier in the year for George to be "turning 23" and if George is turning 23, he's 22 now and therefore, only four years older than Battler.

If George gets older, Krauss, Eva and Natsuhi can get older, too.

I guess you should ask Rambler because he/she got the most information about ages/birthdays.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

I didn't know Natsuhi's age depends on Eva's, too.
George's birthdate is 16th March according to the wikia. Umineko timeline states this:

Hum... to which timeline are you referring?

According to the official timeline George is born in 1963

1963 – 絵羽と秀吉の息子として譲治が誕生。
1963 - Eva and Hideyoshi’s son George is born.

It also confirms that Battler had birth in 1968 on July 15th.

Originally Posted by Mali

If George gets older, Krauss, Eva and Natsuhi can get older, too.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say but what I was interested in having was confirmation if the wikia had found in some official source those ages or they made it up chosing they could be likely right.

[Mali]

http://umineko.renai.ru → unofficial timeline
I didn't refer the timeline of umineco.info which lists George's birth year as 1964.
So...what is this official timeline you speak of?

I'd rather calculate the estimated birthdates than suggesting the actual birthdates with no sources. Maybe Ryukishi released them on twitter earlier?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

http://umineko.renai.ru → unofficial timeline
I didn't refer the timeline of umineco.info which lists George's birth year as 1964.
So...what is this official timeline you speak of?

Ryukishi had printed a timeline on one of the Umineko official extra books for the VN (the one for EP 8). It's official and had been translated some time ago.

Sadly it doesn't contain everything (for example there's no birth year for the adults) but there's one for the cousins (though only for Battler he listed birthyear and birthday... the others just have their birthyear and that's it)

Originally Posted by Mali

I'd rather calculate the estimated birthdates than suggesting the actual birthdates with no sources. Maybe Ryukishi released them on twitter earlier?

Everything is possible, that's why I'd like to know if there's a source for those ages or if people just made them up.

[chaos_alfa]

For who hasn't seen it yet.

Somebody is currently reading Umineko and sharing theories and thoughts about it.

He/she has created a thread for it on the "Visual Novels, Mobage & Anime Spin-Off Games" board.

Umineko Playthrough Topic (Progressive spoilers and Discussions)

He/she wants to have some spoiler free discussion about his/her theories.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Ryukishi had printed a timeline on one of the Umineko official extra books for the VN (the one for EP 8). It's official and had been translated some time ago.

Sadly it doesn't contain everything (for example there's no birth year for the adults) but there's one for the cousins (though only for Battler he listed birthyear and birthday... the others just have their birthyear and that's it)

I'd like to read this translated timeline. Where might I find it?

[budspencer]

Hello i hope somebody will share their opinions on this. Basically i would like to know is the meta world just something
a)Tohya, Ikuko and Sayo literally wrote in their forgeries so just a part of those 3 peoples stories
b) is it a real place where the souls of people gather or
c) is it just showing metaphorically the struggle of real life characters (Ange and Tohya for example dealing with pain and memories) Thanks