Physical Attractiveness

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Fortunately, that myth is so broken at this point I can only laugh at the occasional idiot I encounter who still thinks that. (Kind of like the MMO-idiots who cannot comprehend the idea that girls might be playing the game and that they might be playing male or female avatars. Half of our LAN party friends are attractive females... not just okay, but really damn cute.

They're all L4D fans, FPS, Rock Band, MMOs. One plays a male goblin squig herder on Warhammer "because she likes squeezing innards to make her squigs dance".

That's... interesting. The demographics on most of the computer forums I visit would have suggested otherwise to me.

I do know some cute girls who are into D&D and anime though. Unfortunately, after the "Nanoha? Ugh, my brother watches that." line I got from one earlier tonight suggests I may have my work cut out for me in some respects.

[Vexx]

Girls don't tend to announce their presence on computer forums or in MMOs (for what should be obvious reasons after watching a few minutes of the most mind-boggling misogynist moronic chatter in many MMOs or FPSs). The tools could be surrounded by cute women in virtual space and not know it

but that topic is a derail from the thread topic ... sorry about that.

As for the poll.... I'm going to cop out and say that all 4 choices can be true and all at once - because its a lot more complicated than a multiple choice poll.
(there I go writing in the margins on polls again...)

[Narona]

Originally Posted by npcomplete

... Really?

No, not at all. In fact they are all very, very ugly.

j/k

I guess I worded it really wrong. I didn't want to generalize, so I merely said something about what I saw in the countries I know well (and it's based on my personal tastes, I Know), but there are every types of people in each country. So what I said was unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Vexx

(not that I'm in any position to actually do more than say "... wow" ).

That reminds me this


:runs:

Originally Posted by Vexx

Girls don't tend to announce their presence on computer forums or in MMOs (for what should be obvious reasons after watching a few minutes of the most mind-boggling misogynist moronic chatter in many MMOs or FPSs). The tools could be surrounded by cute women in virtual space and not know it

A friend of mine playw to online games and said the same kind of thing to me (minus the "cute women" part, she was talking about girls in general)

[Jazzrat]

offtopic,
There's 2 types of women in MMOs, one that actively advertised their gender and seeks attention from the lads and those who just want to play the game without being disturbed/discriminated for being a girl.

The disproportionate ratio of guys and girls gamer makes it a wonderful platform for the attention seekers.

And being a geek doesnt mean they arent attractive. It's just a difference in interest and hobbies.

[0utf0xZer0]

I have to actually admit that I cannot for the life of me approach people who look like they expend a lot of effort on their appearance. For some reason I tend to stereotype them as more judgmental, which is a HUGE turnoff for someone like me who is quite timid and tends to avoid even "routine" confrontation, arguments, etc.

So yeah, the "plain but still cute" type tends to win out for me.

(And damn, was the self analysis session that lead me to this conclusion ever depressing... I like to think I'm attracted to the girls I like on some sort of biological basis, not some threat avoidance routine.)

[Narona]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I have to actually admit that I cannot for the life of me approach people who look like they expend a lot of effort on their appearance. For some reason I tend to stereotype them as more judgmental, which is a HUGE turnoff for someone like me who is quite timid and tends to avoid even "routine" confrontation, arguments, etc.

So yeah, the "plain but still cute" type tends to win out for me.

Judgemental about what? People's look/appearance? Or in everything, maybe?

And by "appearance", do you mean the clothes/make-up/etc.? Or even the fact that some take care of their body?

Just curious.

A personal advice. If you can, just look at those people's friends If you see that one doesn't only spend his/her time with people who don't seem to expend as much effort on their appearance as him/her, then it might mean that they are not as judgemental as you think they are.

Anyway, you should not generalize A person can take care of him/herself, and be as timid as you. They don't all do that just to attract people of the same kind as them. Some do that for other reasons.

Originally Posted by Jazzrat

And being a geek doesnt mean they arent attractive. It's just a difference in interest and hobbies.

That's why we pointed out that idiotic stereotype xD

[zebra]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

It's the same about video games. A girl who plays and loves video games ---> A girl who is not pretty.

Originally Posted by Narona

It changed a edit: lot over the years, fortunately xD

France is the second/third biggest videogames market in europe (behind the UK and ahead of Germany). Now lots of Girls play videogames

Originally Posted by Vexx

Fortunately, that myth is so broken at this point I can only laugh at the occasional idiot I encounter who still thinks that. (Kind of like the MMO-idiots who cannot comprehend the idea that girls might be playing the game and that they might be playing male or female avatars.

You know, I agree that nowadays gaming and appereance has nothing to do with each other. The ugly, nerdy girl is a stereotype, who slowly dies down. There ARE still a lot of them however. One is working in my favorit game store. I'm scared of her since she proudly stated it's a shame that guy didn't threw himself in front of the train, when she was there to witness it . But it's just like that for man. Sexy isn't what a girl immediatly thinks when she hears a guy is a passionate gamer (talking about the norm here). But that's also just a prejudice. There are a lot of cuties, but just as many who're ... not?
Not everyone who plays is ugly, but also there aren't only gods ;D

And these idiots who can't comprehend that a girl is into gaming too aren't rare at all. I get confronted with that all the time.
When I'm playing FFXI people always refer to me as an 'He', until corrected (my character is female). Sometimes they're like "WUT UR A REAL GIRL" .. but it's getting better I guess. I do like to play with this and sometimes lie and say I'm a guy and tease them to no end. Stay away from me, when I'm bored XD

Also when people meet me face to face they are ALWAYS surprised about my career or my hobbies. "You are studying what?! " or "....just how cool is that, a girl who plays Playstation!! D:"

But yeah, thank goodness this misperception is slowly fading, but it's still there. Gaming has become more and more 'mainstream' / enjoyment for the masses over the last years, so the specialty over it disappears.

But I have to admit: I LOVE to pawn a guy in a game - console or billiard or something like that it doesn't matter. I just like how pissed of they get, since they see they're manhood attacked. As a girl you're never perceived just as the same as a male buddy.

Originally Posted by Mauru

Actually attractive people do have negative stereotyping on them.

Examples taken straight from the social psychology textbook:

"People who are beautiful are usually seen as "good", but attractiveness is also associated with a few negative assumptions. For example, beautiful women are sometimes perceived as vain and materialistic, Also, handsome male political candidates are more likely to be elected than unattractive ones (My Comment: This means Obama was more handsome than McCain?) but an attractive female candidate is not helped by her appearance. Possibly being "too feminine" is assumed to be inappropriate for someone in a legislative, judicial, or executive position, although being "too masculine" is OK"

That's the double standart for you. A handsome man is competent, a beautiful girl is stupid. Angela Merkel (of germany) is proof that women are able to rule when they are unattractive as hell.
But there's also a lot of discrimination of man in the working world today. e.g.:
A man and a woman apply for an engineering job. The woman gets taken, to fill the ratio / because she's rarer. How is that fair?
I mean, yeah women need a little push in 'the men's world' but I want to be employed because I was the best choice and not just because I don't have a penis. If the guy has better qualifications, he shouldn't lose.

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

I think that the inequalities between pretty and ugly aren't significant enough of a problem to be compared to something like racial discrimination.

So true xD

Originally Posted by Jazzrat

offtopic,
There's 2 types of women in MMOs, one that actively advertised their gender and seeks attention from the lads and those who just want to play the game without being disturbed/discriminated for being a girl.

The disproportionate ratio of guys and girls gamer makes it a wonderful platform for the attention seekers.

True!! <.< But there's also a third party: Females who say they're a woman, for the bonuses. Girls often get generous gifts / help easier.
Well, I only expose my gender when asked, why would I hide it, why would I bloat about it? Categorize if ya want, I don't care xD The only annoying thing is that too many guys are coming around with a "Marry me! (ingame)" around the corner, without a real reason. Just leave me alone if you don't even know me D:

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I have to actually admit that I cannot for the life of me approach people who look like they expend a lot of effort on their appearance. For some reason I tend to stereotype them as more judgmental, which is a HUGE turnoff for someone like me who is quite timid and tends to avoid even "routine" confrontation, arguments, etc.

So yeah, the "plain but still cute" type tends to win out for me.

Haha, that's superficialness reversed? Is it really a turn-off or are you plainly scared you can't keep up? No offense really I just think that way of thinking is just as wrong, as saying someone plain looking is boring.
I, myself for example am not into shy guys normally, but if I would forsaken them from the start I might have missed a lot in the past. Just saying.
But it's always a matter of taste, that's why no offense~

[Fome]

I'm surprised at how many people picked the first choice, despite my belief that anime fans have a greater proportion of those who are overweight, nerdy looking, unkempt--generally social outcasts. I mean, the first thing I notice when I go to a con is, "wow, why is everyone so fat." I guess even Anime fans are feeling a little embarrassed by their own appearance. Ya learn something everyday

[SaintessHeart]

Okay I finally decided to stop avoiding answering in this thread and flashing my middle finger at almost every post. Psychometric powers do not work in cyberspace without a proper neural interface.

Spoiler for background:

It can seriously hurt to be ugly. I am one of such, with facial features that makes me look retarded, skinny nose (thanks to a certain bully in middle school!) that makes my glasses slide down and give me a look of a perverted old man, large lips, protruding lower jaw. Before I was conscripted into the army I had a "surgically modifed" torso seems girlish from the back (skinny arms, large chest, thin waist) that I have friends who (jokingly) told me that going for cosmetic surgery and transsexual op would win me Miss Universe.

In short, it pretty much explains why I was bullied in school. I had the face of a punching bag and a semi-girlish figure. Instead of concentrating on my studies, I had to fend off insults and fists and wage psychological warfare with everyone, even the teachers, resulting in my rather cynical mercenary attitude that makes others hate me even more.

I convinced myself out of suicide because I felt like a loser who wanted to win. I made use of my wits and zero-respect personality to pull myself out of the shower of self-righteous judgement. What makes me tough is that I can live and fight without respect or trust. My weakness is my inability to socially connect with others. Why? Because I look like that.

Spoiler for work experience scenario:

I once worked in an office of women, other than me. And I had this colleague who looks pretty, but she is damn bloody useless. The only thing she has got on her mind are "procedures", and that "show me some respect" mentality that I had to LEVEL her with real time insults like "don't waste my time" and "respect is to be earned, and whether others want to let you have it, is their business". She speaks politely and is cordial, but one look from an experienced spotter it is nothing but a facade, she messes up the co-op jobs, backstabs then scapegoats you. She once passed a comment when I make a mistake of, "He is always like that."

I am actually surprised that people actually side with her and was waging an AOW in my office until a friend told me that it is because she has got better looks to charm others to her side, and I look downright ugly. In short, no matter how much sense I speak, I will never convince anyone due to my looks. But I was glad that I kept my work attitude of "too bad if you are slower than me" that puts me at the front to things, preventing pre-empts by people like her.

It is not the person's looks that garner him/her hate, but the attitude too. And this attitude does not come naturally, it is how others treat him/her that make him/her as such. If the attitude isn't broken before the person enters the workforce, that person will be the center of office politics, taking the most, and dishing out the most.

I have been through many scenarios, and the thing is that, if your looks suck, you will definitely fail at life unless you have got some serious wits and money to make up for it. Personally, I feel that females are more inclined to looks, targeting anyone who looks bad, unless they have been victims themselves for a long time. And if they are cliquish, and you are ugly and encounter them, all I can say is, "Good luck. You will end up looking like what they throw at you."

If life has a value, I wouldn't be treated like radioactive waste. Scientists (inclusive of nuclear proliferators) find value in me because they are smart enough to see my internal value for R&D and probable use in the future, whereas others find me a hassle not just to come in contact with, but to dispose of too. Even those who dump me seal me in concrete blocks lined with lead. *

P.S I have already sworn to remove anyone from physical existence who makes my life really difficult beyond my coping means. Call me homicidal, but for your benefit, you might want to look beyond the flaws of the "socially abnormal" because there are these kind who think like me out there, and probably more mentally capable than me. And be glad that I am capable enough to cope with shit like that.

* - For the truly lazy or stupid who can't grasp the metaphors, this is what it actually means :

1. Scientists (including nuclear proliferators) - Smart people who want to believe that I am not useless, either in an idealistic or pragmatic sense, for the benefit of others or for themselves.

2. Others - General population of the Terra Firma.

3. Concrete blocks lined with lead - Mental institutions, prisons, rehabiliation camps, gulags, etc.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Fome

I mean, the first thing I notice when I go to a con is, "wow, why is everyone so fat."

Odd, that's what I say when I go to the shopping mall or any large gathering of people.

[-HyugaNeji-]

The perception of attractiveness is a complex process. It's not only the sheer physical look. Perception changes when you add specific ingredients. For example. Women might not want to hear it, but it was prooven in scientific studies. Sucess, power or money greatly influence how women perceive a man. One test in that study was especially interesting, because it showed the differences between male and female perception of attractiveness.

The test was like this. They had to look at two photos of the same person, but in a different setting (Side by sid on the same screen). A car is generally accepted as some kind of symbol for sucess. In the one picture, the man/woman was shown standing before a totally average or crap car, while in the other picture, they stood before cars like a lamborghini, Bentley or Ferrari.

The scientists measured eyemovement via a camera to determine on which parts of the screen they would focus their attention the most. And after the test they also had to answer several questions.

The result? The vast majority of women found the man more attractive that was standing infront of the luxury vehicle, even though it was always the same person in both pictures.

For the men on the other hand the test went different. For them it didn't matter wheter the women stood before a crap car or a Ferrari. Eye movement was evenly distributed and in general the setting made no difference in the perception of attractiveness.

It might sound harsh, but it somehow prooves that women are more shallow when it comes to judging the opposite sex then vise versa.

But in general you can say, that the perception of a person is greatly influenced by social status and success. It adds to your aura. Attractiveness is also influenced ALOT by self esteem and how you carry yourself. It also adds to your aura.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Jazzrat

There's 2 types of women in MMOs, one that actively advertised their gender and seeks attention from the lads and those who just want to play the game without being disturbed/discriminated for being a girl.

A friend recently married a girl he meet while playing FFXI and I think she actually fits in the middle of those two categories. She never advertised her gender, yet, she never tried to hide it either. Quite interested in the game as well; 2 years at it before meeting and marrying my friend.

But anyway....

Here in Mexico there are many places that (sadly) will only hire "pretty people", and some will even go as far as to include this as mandatory in their paper ads.

There are also a few bars (for young people) here that will not let "ugly people" past the door. This sort of places sickens me, because the people that usually can't get in are those that have a bit of a dark skin color, wich happens to include a lot of people around here. >_<

And even worse is that every time I bitch about said places, I often get the "But Daniel, you are tall, white and good looking. Why are you complaining?" line.

Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji-

The test was like this. They had to look at two photos of the same person, but in a different setting (Side by sid on the same screen). A car is generally accepted as some kind of symbol for sucess. In the one picture, the man/woman was shown standing before a totally average or crap car, while in the other picture, they stood before cars like a lamborghini, Bentley or Ferrari.

I saw a documentary about sex appeal on the Discovery Channel once, and they made a test just like this.

They also got the same results you mentioned.

[-HyugaNeji-]

Originally Posted by Daniel E.

A friend recently married a girl he meet while playing FFXI and I think she actually fits in the middle of those two categories. She never advertised her gender, yet, she never tried to hide it either. Quite interested in the game as well; 2 years at it before meeting and marrying my friend.

But anyway....

Here in Mexico there are many places that (sadly) will only hire "pretty people", and some will even go as far as to include this as mandatory in their paper ads.

There are also a few bars (for young people) here that will not let "ugly people" past the door. This sort of places sickens me, because the people that usually can't get in are those that have a bit of a dark skin color, wich happens to include a lot of people around here. >_<

And even worse is that every time I bitch about said places, I often get the "But Daniel, you are tall, white and good looking. Why are you complaining?" line.

It's not only in mexico, you'll find that worldwide. You know from 2000 to 2003 i did an aprenticesihp in a big german bank and i still remember the application process including interviews and assassement center. In our group (we were 12 applicants) there was none who didn't look somehow attractive and fitting for the job in a bank. You know there's still that stereotype about how you should look for specific jobs. Especially jobs where you have to deal with customers and many people in general. I don't know why, but the people in charge tend to think that people who look somehow attractive (or not unattractive) have better communication skills, which are definately needed in a bank. During my aprenticeship i was 5 weeks in human recources to learn about the application process from the other side. I even had to check applications and give my impressions to my training supervisors. And i'm ashamed to admit that the photo that was mandatory on every application had an impact on how i evaluated the whole application.

It's just that, especially in the business world, you need something like a knock out criterion when you have to deal with hundreds of applications. And here in germany, an application without a photo would go straight to the wastebasket.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Fome

I mean, the first thing I notice when I go to a con is, "wow, why is everyone so fat." I guess even Anime fans are feeling a little embarrassed by their own appearance. Ya learn something everyday

There's quite a few average or even good lookings girls in my university anime club - even otaku like me have choices.

Originally Posted by Narona

Judgemental about what? People's look/appearance? Or in everything, maybe?

And by "appearance", do you mean the clothes/make-up/etc.? Or even the fact that some take care of their body?

Taking care of your body is fine. Where it tends to be a turn off is when they look like they spend a lot of time on looks.

I know it's horrible stereotyping, but I have trouble believing that people who spend a lot of time on their appearance are the types who also spend a lot of time on hobbies. I expect people with hobbies to neglect unrelated things to some extent.

(I've always found people who are a bit obsessed with some hobby easier to talk to. I probably expect them to be more understanding of my obsessions.)

Personally, I feel that rather than trying to change how I judge people, it would be better to try and solve the underlying reason of why I judge people. That basically comes down to the fact I'm quite timid - probably the result of having a lot of hobbies people aren't that understanding of (*cough* moe *cough*). I know exactly why I like the kind of stuff I do, but I don't like having to explain it to people.

Originally Posted by Narona

A personal advice. If you can, just look at those people's friends If you see that one doesn't only spend his/her time with people who don't seem to expend as much effort on their appearance as him/her, then it might mean that they are not as judgemental as you think they are.

Thanks for the tip, I'll keep it in mind.

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji-

It's not only in mexico, you'll find that worldwide. You know from 2000 to 2003 i did an aprenticesihp in a big german bank and i still remember the application process including interviews and assassement center. In our group (we were 12 applicants) there was none who didn't look somehow attractive and fitting for the job in a bank.

Interesting that you bring this up, since banks are actually one of the most picky in this regard as well.

At least they are here in my city.

[Kudryavka]

I feel confused and disappointed that over half of the voters voted that looks greatly impact a person's life.
I mean, it's obvious that looks impact your life, but greatly? Maybe in Hollywood, but in real life, bombshells with arsehole personalities don't have friends, either.

[Dilla]

^Well, it was more than just about having advantages socially, the OP was talking beyond that as well. Getting a job in a white collar field, for example.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Dilla

^Well, it was more than just about having advantages socially, the OP was talking beyond that as well. Getting a job in a white collar field, for example.

KK, I reread the OP. Now I get it
Looks do benifit you in certain areas, mainly jobs where you have to see a lot of people, like acting and being a cashier. And I guess people do judge others by looks upon first sight - we naturally sum up people on our first impressions.

[zebra]

Originally Posted by -HyugaNeji-

It might sound harsh, but it somehow prooves that women are more shallow when it comes to judging the opposite sex then vise versa.

But in general you can say, that the perception of a person is greatly influenced by social status and success. It adds to your aura. Attractiveness is also influenced ALOT by self esteem and how you carry yourself. It also adds to your aura.

So it's more shallow to judge about status then about looks?
Don't misunderstand me, I think women who seduce old men to get in their testomony are scum - but in less extreme cases, what makes going for the woman with the bigger boobs better then going for the man who has a nice drive? It's both pretty shallow in my eyes.

I also think that experiment says more about the social behaviour in relationships, then about what's sexy. Why? Let me tell you about another experiment from the BBC:

The test persons where wired to measure their stress (puls etc.). And where asked a lot of questions. All where in a long lasting relionship. They made them visualize two scenarios:
1.) Partner had sex with someone else. (but is not in love)
2.) Partner falls in love with someone else. (platonic)

Men reacted very strong to the intercourse, and way less to their woman falling for someone else.
Women reacted very strong to the intercourse, and way less to the man cheating.

So what do the two experiments have in common? They prove what we unconciously desire the most in a relationship.

Even in these modern days, women desire to be protected and taken care of by their man. So a woman gets scared of the falling for someone else, since it means his desire to support her is shifting to another woman.
Whereas a man, who invests a lot is scared his woman could get pregnant from someone else, and his support goes to someone who isn't his offspring - thus going to waste.

So why do the women go for the ferrari? Because they're situation would be financially secure - perfect for building a family.
Men don't look for a sugar mama (normally), so they don't care what their woman drives.

It's stupid nowadays, but that's how our mind still works, just like in the stoneage.

SO I don't really think it has much to do with attractiveness, it's primary instinct.

... but putting it like that. Going for the most attractive being is a primary instinct too, since you want to have healthy and strong offsprings. So what was my point again? God, now I've confused myself XD

Well ...*coughs* ... the status thing ... only works for girls and lies deep down in biology and just as going for looks. Going for the rich guy isn't meaner then to go for the sexbomb. We can't help our tendencies. But we have the ability to reason and to balance what is in a person and in the end we all are responsible for our behaviour towards others.

Attractiveness brings out the animal in us.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Taking care of your body is fine. Where it tends to be a turn off is when they look like they spend a lot of time on looks.

Do you really know how much time they spend on it or do you assume?

I know it's horrible stereotyping, but I have trouble believing that people who spend a lot of time on their appearance are the types who also spend a lot of time on hobbies. I expect people with hobbies to neglect unrelated things to some extent.

Actually a person who tries to be in a very good shape has hobbies. It can include doing a sport. And as far as I know, it is a hobby.

Actually, taking care of yourself can be a hobby. Imagine that you have a nice skin, or nice hair. You might want to take care of it. Not inevitably because you want the other people to look at you, but because you like that part of you. I personally think that there is nothing wrong with that, and I don't see any link about being more judgemental towards the other people. Actually, you can find people who are judgemental towards the ones who have that kind of hobbies. Because they think they are, for example, haughty.

You have also another type of people. The ones who are aware that in this world, whatever people say, trying to be in a good shape and well-dressed can help you. Not inevitably to be better seen by the other people, but also to not be looked at because you don't look that well (shape or clothes). In this case, those people act like that because the society they live in is judgemental), but that doesn't mean they are judgemental themselves.

(I've always found people who are a bit obsessed with some hobby easier to talk to. I probably expect them to be more understanding of my obsessions.)

As I said above, taking care of yourself can be a hobby, or can include some/many hobbies (sport/s). They are just different hobbies than yours. Now the question is, are you judgemental towards those hobbies, or not?

Example: I like my hair a lot. I spend a lot of time taking care of it, I learned a lot of things about hair and how to take good care of it. I consider it to be one of my hobby since I enjoy taking care of it. Does that mean I am judgemental towards the ones who don't do the same? No. It is a hobby? It is. Does that mean I talk about how I take care of it all the time? No. Even if I am not really that timid about it (that means that i actually am a bit timid), I don't think most people are interested in listening to me on that topic to begin with.

Personally, I feel that rather than trying to change how I judge people, it would be better to try and solve the underlying reason of why I judge people. That basically comes down to the fact I'm quite timid - probably the result of having a lot of hobbies people aren't that understanding of (*cough* moe *cough*). I know exactly why I like the kind of stuff I do, but I don't like having to explain it to people.

But the other problem is that the persons you judge can be as shy as you when it comes to talk about their hobbies or their life.

You are right in a sense that some of them are judgemental, but not all. It's the same as a smoker who will not try to talk to the one who don't smoke, because he/she fear to be judged. Try to talk to them. If they are like you thought they were, curse them if you want. But I assure you that not all the smoker are jerk and disrespectful. As far as they don't smoke in front of you, they can be really nice to you.

Originally Posted by zebra

Don't misunderstand me, I think women who seduce old men to get in their testomony are scum

And what about the men who eventually choose their GF mostly based on the look of the girl? It is shallow too. They don't really plan a long term relationship at all, I think. Because when you do plan, you actually care for the personality/character of the other person a lot, because that's the person you're supposed to spend the rest of your life with xD