Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Hey, she's an energetic 18-year-old...what do you EXPECT...?

This somehow reminds me of something.

Minmei: Hey, look Hikaru, another one of my posters!

Hikaru: *observing his apartment, filled with Minmei posters* Wow... (faking surprise) that is so... US!

...

...

...

Hikaru: ... ... ... WHAT THE FUCK!? Thats it, we are done! DONE man, DONE!



Announcement in the background: Call personal storage today and pay only $1 for your first month rent!

- Tak (Minmei is not a good candidate for the Tenchi solution)

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Hey, she's an energetic 18-year-old...what do you EXPECT...?

Hey the only reason why Hikaru can keep up with Misa is because it happens less frequently with her.

Though to be more specific I meant that Hikaru was falling out of love with Minmei during the last half, while simultaneously realizing that she just wasn't the right person for him.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Though to be more specific I meant that Hikaru was falling out of love with Minmei during the last half, while simultaneously realizing that she just wasn't the right person for him.

Enh...I'd still argue that while he realizes it sporadically throughout the series, it doesn't REALLY hit him until most of the way through episode 36...

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Enh...I'd still argue that while he realizes it sporadically throughout the series, it doesn't REALLY hit him until most of the way through episode 36...

that's what I meant.

[Hollowgolem]

Originally Posted by Lancel

They are all rather young and foolish, but grow and mature with time. I guess as anyone does.

That's why the series is so good!

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Yeah...overall, I'm not that fond of Alto, and found him to be thick as a post at times, but he absolutely has his head on straighter than Hikaru did.

...a testament to how low Hikaru set the bar. Though I, too, wanted to punch Hikaru significantly more than I wanted to punch Alto. Alto seemed to at least know what was going on, even if he didn't know what to -do- about it.

Hikaru was just stupid for a stretch of about 15 episodes.

[BChoinski]

Originally Posted by raile

Yeah, it's true. Despite how much I love the series, you cannot deny what a dick Hikaru was during those times. There were a lot of times I'd go "HIT HIM, MISA! SLAP HIM! FALCON PUNCH THAT PRICK! " He's lucky Misa isn't prone to violence considering his dick moves. I'm not saying that Hikaru doesn't have his good points, he does...it just gets lost in the romance department.

That is why his characterization in DYRL was an improvement I readily welcomed.

That's actually why I kind of stopped at the end of Ep 27 (in the current rewatch, just zoomed ahead). I also could not stand the way he was jerking Misa around.

[Tak]

After watching Hikaru dick around for 10+ episodes, I almost recommended Misa for sainthood.

And if you disagreed with me... well... you suck!

Yes, I wanted to beat up Hikaru so bad.

- Tak

[Hollowgolem]

The frustrating part, of course, is that the single sweetest scene in their whole relationship comes -before- he jerks her around (episode 24).

[LoveMeKags]

And now... the Sheryl.

90% of this board is Sheryl prone… what do you expect?

Sheryl is a flawed character, I have no doubts about that, but then, who really isn't flawed? Sheryl is stubborn, overconfident, conceited, and at times foolish with a peculiar aversion to accepting help. I myself like her even for her flaws. She wants to do things herself, to accomplish things on her own and not have it given to her, and she has accomplished much because of it giving her great confidence. By this same process, she's hard-working, dedicated, strong-willed, a bit outgoing, and quite energetic. She feels unstoppable and without limit, and it frustrates her when something comes up as a road block, but over the course of the series she learns that she isn't, that there are things she can't do anything about, developing a bit of modesty that finally leads her to doing what she can do to make a difference, which is singing. Thus she learns her own limitations through the very, very hard way of facing death through a fatal disease, where nothing she does will change the outcome, left only with the option to do what she can with what she has left.

Here’s the part I hated most about my timed out login…

Sheryl’s flaws are truly bad in this series. For example, the movie, she persists on singing (being stubborn and overconfident) whilst an attack is going on outside instead of thinking about her crowd’s wellbeing, and instead of listening to Alto, she follows him to the roof. Now, had she listened to Alto and left, she would not have been blown from the building, got bruises, and fallen into peril, nor would she have become every girl in the U.S. movies that stupidly wanders toward the danger. That flaw dug in deep and still irritated me even as she tried to redeem it at the end of the movie.

And actually, when you say she “finds her limitations through her fatal disease,” that makes her sound conceited and stupid because of the fact she should’ve already realized she’s mortal. That, right there, is a limitation that should’ve been noticed years ago. Every other character realizes their mortal and have that one very bad limitation. Alto did through the fact he was a pilot and could be killed if he screwed up just once. Ranka did through the memory of her parents’ death. Only Sheryl not realizing her limitations is pathetic.

I'll say more about this when my computer is repaired.

As character flaws though they can at the same time be looked upon in a very negative light. What some people can tolerate others cannot, and what some people may actually like others do not. Such is life. But now I'll step off the soap box to say that personally I adore Sheryl and her flaws, together they're just so damn entertaining.

Her character flaws just rubbed me the wrong way from Ep.1 and they won’t leave, honestly. Maybe it’s because I don’t like tsunderes (and I tolerated Louise but mostly liked Saito) and Amu has to be the only one that I truly liked from Ep.1 because her emotions showed in that episode.

But I will say, on a side note, that Sheryl is good comic relief. My favorite episode with Sheryl in it would be Ep.8.

Luca: This is bad.
Michael & Alto:
Luca: She took off without strapping in.
Michael & Alto:

At a related side note, that time period also had the most annoying bit of the love triangle, and possibly leads to the very reason Sheryl didn't want Alto to find out she was dying. After Alto found out she couldn't tell anymore if he was really serious or just being nice to the dying girl, as she implies later to Luca with her 'kindness is a crime' speech. There's more complexity there, but that's all I wanted to share.

If it’s any news to you, Alto was kind to Sheryl before learning of her fatal illness or even knowing she was ill period. He was kind and tolerated her attitude as early on as Ep.5. So, by the time he knew of her illness, she should be contemplating his feelings for her, she should know at least along these lines: “he loves me but he also wants to care for me.” Even if his love never left platonic for Sheryl, she should know that he cares for her out of love and not pity. If he does pity her, it’s not pity for her dying but rather pity for himself not realizing it and pity for losing someone he cares about deeply and she’s suffering. It’s not entirely directed at her and she doesn’t see that.

Spoiler for Watashi no Kare wa Pilot:

I do have to ask about this not wanting to demonize Sheryl comment though. I don't want to be confrontational, but I am curious about it because... well, quite honestly, I often have the feeling that you are trying to demonize her, and... I did read your fanfic and... yeah. Okay, that's basically the root of it there. Alto was fine, Ranka was fine, but Sheryl's been pretty horrific as a person in it so far. I haven't really seen a scene where anything of her could be depicted as positive, and it feels like there's a complete lack of empathy in her, and while sometimes I feel she can lack empathy when she's being ridiculously stubborn I have a hard time believing that's the Sheryl that sings Diamond Crevasse because it feels like she just has no empathy at all. I mean maybe it's just that you haven't gotten that far with the fic yet, but the closest I can place is that Sheryl largely looks like she did in the 'Galactic Bitch' scene with Cathy, only she's that way all the time and sometimes worse. But anyway, there lies the question I have, if you're sure she's not being demonized. I mean surely she can't be all bad as a character. I may be missing something I admit, I.. err.. don't read everything that goes on on these forums, heh. I can move this if this is inappropriate here.

Here’s one that I really hated my login time out…

Actually, yes; the fic isn’t far enough along yet. Sheryl has a slightly different past than in the series that alters her personality a bit. Because of this, she’s more selfish and centered around herself (oblivious to others feelings or thoughts of her) and dense. Her character flaws are later fully shown and then resolved before the end just like everyone else’s.

All of their pasts have been altered so they meet in the middle (meaning they’ve met someone somewhere at sometime and somehow but don’t truly remember one another) and how it resolves is the epic ending that you look for.

In Ch.12, Alto’s conversation with Sheryl will surely change your attitude of my fic because it shows more along the sides of the conversation in Ep.6, which shows that she’s not really that changed, it’s just that she takes more time to open up. Her treatment of Ranka in the first few chapters went a bit edgy with me too, so I’ve rewritten Ch.5 to show more progression towards a friendship between them. It won’t truly show till later on, but it will give a start.

Alto’s attachment towards Ranka in the first few chapters and even up until Ch.12 really settles in is more based on the fact he met a girl when his mother died who sang the song Aimo to him at Griffith Park. For eleven years, he’s traveled to Griffith Park and heard that song but never approached the singer. So, since Ranka knows the song: she’s a tie to the person he must thank. His feelings for her, however, grow as he comes to realize that they are not worlds apart. Her career is important to her, as it’s her dream, but in Ch.3, as Ranka shows with the “you are yourself” speech, Alto comes to realize that they must first achieve their dreams before they can truly attach themselves to each other. And also realize that in Ch.1, when Luca leaves, Alto says he’s looking for someone to commit to. When Ranka offers him a way into her life, he follows his words to Luca and accepts to allow a girl in his life. How this comes out to be his best decision ever is what you look for. Sheryl, in Ch.1, showed no form of wanting to be in his life. And by the time she did… Alto was taken.

What really moves me about writing this fic is that later Alto shows attachment to Ranka in an emotional and physical stature (and I don’t mean sex but rather states it out loud). He also starts to realize through Ranka that his family is important as well and his father’s opinion was only stated because he cared about Alto and wasn’t meant to be condescending. Through this, Alto is able come to terms with his own limitations and choices and finally realize he has somewhere he can be eternal on stage: with Ranka (premiere of Birdman).

Ranka’s songs, if you noticed, have also become more mature. In this way, you know that Ranka has a different past and therefore suffers internally, without remembering why, for it.

But for the rest, you’ll have to read the fic.

[wisteria233]

@LMK Actions speak louder than words -- though you do use quite a lot of words which still go against your claim.

Again you claim that you aren't bashing Sheryl only to turn around and make a wall of text, and a fanfic bashing her character. Even worse since the character in no way resembles your ideal. If you want to dislike a character be sure to dislike them for things that they actually do and not things that you made up in your fanfic.

[Tak]

So another TLDR about how much you hate Sheryl, how Sheryl is flawed, and how Ranka is perfect?

Are you bored yet?

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

If it’s any news to you, Alto was kind to Sheryl before learning of her fatal illness or even knowing she was ill period. He was kind and tolerated her attitude as early on as Ep.5

You are actually saying this in face of the bullshit Ranka had to put the entire Frontier fleet through? Holy fucking crap.

Did I mention thats also canon?

- Tak

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Tak

So another TLDR about how much you hate Sheryl, how Sheryl is flawed, and how Ranka is perfect?

Are you bored yet?

- Tak

I don't know about her, but I certainly am.

Can we go back to talking about giant robots fighting giant aliens eventually...?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I don't know about her, but I certainly am.

Can we go back to talking about giant robots fighting giant aliens eventually...?

Can you find a good idea to make it fit into the romance thread?

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Can you find a good idea to make it fit into the romance thread?

Yeah. Max vs. Milia.

Or Michel vs. MacroKlan.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Yeah. Max vs. Milia.

Or Michel vs. MacroKlan.

That right there is true love.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

that right there is true love.

...as combat!!!

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Yeah. Max vs. Milia.

Or Michel vs. MacroKlan.

Well done INDEED! Although I think both couples would prefer some other kind of wresslin'.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I think the fact that he ran after Misa, abandoning Minmay with bombs and missiles falling everywhere says more than any words could.

Notice, though, that he waited until Minmay ACTUALLY MOVED IN WITH HIM for at least a week or two before he left her behind...

(I really don't understand why the final episodes seem to create so much Minmay-fanrage (since, after all, she had no idea that anything was developing between Hikaru and Misa) and yet seem not to create any Hikaru-fanrage (since he kept pining after Minmay, told Misa that he'd put her photos in his album but that she shouldn't "get the wrong idea," made and subsequently broke a date with Misa to hang out with Minmay, and so on and so on...). Personally, I really dislike him towards the end of series.)

hehe, love hurts and SDFM has a way of shoveling it around in spades.

As for the final part, I find myself sympathising with all three characters. (So you can call me a Hikaru sympathiser ). The viewer has an unfair advantage of having acces to the private feelings of all the main characters while the characters can only guess what the others think and feel.

I interpret the last several episodes this way: I think Hikaru never stopped loving Minmay. He gruadually realised that the price of them being together would be both giving up their happiness. That's a pretty destructive kind of love and an break-up seemed inevitable over time. I also believe Minmay's feelings for Hikaru are honest, over time those had *finally* grown beyond friendship. In the end she is prepared to give up her dreams for him, but she's too shook up by events to fully realize the implications.

We see Misa suffer in private (so we know she is honest) but in public there is both a mutual attraction and a work related conflict between her and Hikaru. Her fear of getting hurt and the overwhelming presence of Minmay (much like Hikaru feared Kaifun) meant she couldn't confess directly so Hikaru didn't take her advances seriously. I think he was taken by surprise by the confession and *only then* realised wasn't playing around and could acknowledge that he loved her in return. I think that was the proverbial *struck by lightning* moment. When he realized he loved both women, he effectively only had one choice when the bombs fell: Run after Misa. She needed him while he would only be a burden to Minmay. Love is sometimes knowing when to let go. Call me a romantic



Frontiers romance is much more straight forward. Does Alto like idol A or B. He doesn't seem to be intimidated by their fame, at least it's never shown to be an issue. ( I guess it's his showbiz family background). Sheryl and Ranka both worship him and there is little to no conflict between the two. The general concensus seems to be that he had stronger feelings for Sheryl. Still there was never a moment he really had to choose between the two and the romance in the TV-series ended up unresolved. (I think it would have been better if Ranka had been kidnapped rather than go voluntarily to the Vajira, then Alto would have had to make a choice.)

[Swampstorm]

Hikaru's inaction decides the triangle in SDFM. Most of his 'relationship' with Minmay (or rather his concept of her) ends up taking place in his head, because he chooses to mope from a distance instead of actually asking her out (you can hardly blame her for not reciprocating). Contrast that situation with Misa, with whom he actually spends time building a relationship with.

By the time Hikaru actually makes his feelings known - fittingly, in the past tense - the outcome of the triangle is effectively decided. The remainder of the romance is about the reprocussions of his earlier indecision. Any semblance of a "decision" is simply symbolic.

This is easier to say in retrospect, but I can see why things happened the way thay did. (Not that there wasn't genuine tension on first watch, of course).

[Bri]

Hmm, I don't agree on the inaction part. Hikaru and Minmay's romantic relationship was doomed the moment he enlisted, and by doing so, left her world. That Minmay encouraged this through Roy just makes it all the more bittersweet. In the end both Hikaru and Minmay fundamentally understood the other's role in life.