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Old 2016-10-22, 15:54   Link #161
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudedmind View Post
The show already has anime like dramatic effects though. A 15 year old flying to another country without telling anyone, check. Victors handsy, literal in your face behavior with Yuri, that caters to a certain demographic, check, and there's other things. This show is already far from being grounded in pure figure skating reality or otherwise, that's not to say there aren't aspects of it of course. I personally see the studio and staff going for a blend here.
I am referring specifically to the skating elements of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudedmind View Post
I've never figure skated but I've done quite a bit of acting. Someone's performance suffering because they are uncomfortable portraying a certain role in front of a bunch of strangers is very realistic. I'd personal find it hard to believe that Yurio's performance couldn't have also suffered because he was being asked to convey an emotion that ended up coming from a place that felt very vulnerable to him, the memory of his grandfather. Yurio is an aggressive 15 year old who uses bravado to mask his emotions. There's a reason Victor choose this type of challenge. It's suppose to be difficult, it's suppose to take them out of their comfort zone. Yurio having a hard time with his performance because he became uncomfortable showing agape, and instead allowed the technical difficulty of the performance itself to make him lose sight of what he should have concentrated on, conveying agape, also works, as a narrative point for this episode. Especially when the episode spent so much time talking about both Yuri and Yurio conveying there assigned emotion, and less time focused on them perfecting technique.
The main reason I reject this argument is that the show doesn't present it.

First, one important difference between skating and acting is the sheer physicality of the former. Actors have a lot of time and mind space to think about where they are etc; skaters have to focus on completing their technical elements AND embody a theme on top of that. And we were shown that these were the two things on Yurio's mind towards the end of his skate.

Second, skaters perform in front of strangers all the time, so I really don't see why they wouldn't be used to trying to embody something new in front of strangers. And if he was so embarrassed at the end, then why did he still hang around in the arena watching Yuri? Wouldn't he have wanted to just hide away from everyone? If he was embarrassed, why didn't any of his inner monologue address that and link it to him not being able to embody agape?

And then, besides being a style of performance they didn't normally skate, what was asked of the two Yuri was presented as being incredibly physically challenging. Especially if they haven't had time to build up their stamina in performing it. Yuri commented on it when Victor present the program at the start. The commentator also noted that he had two jumps in the second half - jumps are easier in the first half when legs are fresh. And the Yurio himself comments that the physical difficulty of the program is preventing him from embodying agape, and we can see from the ice flying everywhere and his breathing that this is true. The is no mention/symbolism to suggest otherwise at this point.

Yurio found his agape, and the presentation showed that it was the challenge of the program that tired him out and prevented him from embodying the emotion through to the end. The presentation also suggested that Yuko may have an effect on him, though it certainly didn't stop him from thinking constantly of his grandfather despite starting to lose control over his skate towards the end.

And I remained stunned that no one is talking about what Yuko's place in this is.
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Last edited by karice67; 2016-10-22 at 17:10.
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Old 2016-10-22, 17:23   Link #162
Arya
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Honestly Yurio's key point of the episode was he rediscovered his vulnerable side he buried long time ago, so that this same vulnerability affected his performance feels the most natural outcome from a narrative standpoint. They build up it first and then make it effective in the most relevant part, making himleave afterward as a closure.

But this is a key point even in relation to Yuri and Yurio respective positions, positions that got inverted in this episode exactly because Yuri felt comfortable for the first time while Yurio felt uncomfortable for the first time. And in fact it's not by chance that so it was (inverted) the final result of the competition.

And this is where Yuko's role comes into play. We would have expected her to stay supportive for Yuri as supposedly she always had. The performance Yuri reserved to her was the expression of how comfortable Yuri was before her in contrast with a stadium audience.
Now the question is, why she left him to support Yurio, a complete stranger? My answer is because Yuri for the first time found his comfort by himself (and secondarily he also had Vicktor as support in a way). But that alone wouldn't explain why she went to Yurio, and the reason is because she recognised the same uneasiness in Yurio that affected Yuri for all this time.
And Yuko doing so affected him, because she reminded him of his grandfather, adding up to his vulnerability.

The narrative to me seems quite well-rounded in conveying it on different layers.

On the other hand, if we take that Yurio got exhausted by the program being physically challenging, why Yuri didn't? Yuri even had a quad combination near the end of his program, sign that he had enough stamina to do them and end the program. And not just that, he even spend the whole night awake to practice. If you factor that Yurio won three junior championships in a row, realistically it's Yuri who should have had it harder? So why he wasn't that exhausted to even perform a quad combination at the end?
The only reason I can figure out if we rule out the emotional component, is that Yurio failed planning his athletic training program (but they trained together) or that who staged his choreography failed at it. Because I'd expect the choreography to be calibrated to the performer from the first to the last second. So it would mean taht namely Vicktor is not the genius that we think he is if he wasn't able to size a program to his athlete, whom he trained with until now, meaning he should know him very well. Or that Vicktor sized the programs differently for personal reasons. But I didn't have any evidence in support of this possibility yet at least, end likely Yurio and Yuri would have know.
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Old 2016-10-23, 15:41   Link #163
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Yurio's chibi faces crack me up.
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Old 2016-10-23, 22:45   Link #164
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Yurio skated a perfect performance while Yuri faltered on one jump and touched the ice; so shouldn't Yuri lose points and not actually win? No matter how good Yuri's performance, I think that if he faltered, he should not have won...especially against an equally good performance from Yurio.

...and I couldn't help but let one thought immediately come to mind when Yuri decided he fit the female role instead of the male one in Eros...uke!
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Old 2016-10-24, 07:02   Link #165
karice67
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@Arya
Quads are tiring, especially if this is the first time a skater incorporates two into his program. Yurio hasn't been allowed to skate quads for the past few years. Yuri presumably has been using the quad-toe. Furthermore, Nishigiri tells us that Yuri has fantastic stamina. Given where they are in their careers, I can easily believe Yuri would hold it together better given his experience. And finally, they've only been skating these programs for a week. Most skaters can't skate their programs cleanly in that time. The skating season started about a month ago in RL, and the skaters have been working on their programs since at least May or June. But very few of the top skaters have had great skates yet. It just isn't that easy.

So, sure enough, both of our characters' skates were flawed. Yuri fell on a jump. But although Yurio landed his jumps (one of them not so cleanly), his footwork in the final 30 seconds was pretty rough. In some ways, Yuri was better off because the step sequence is where skaters can really show the character of their programs, and his was at the start, before he got tired. But if you compare both final spins, Yuri's is steady and clean, whilst Yurio's is messy.

Here's the analysis of someone who has done figure skating on Yurio's program, and then on Yuri's program. I'd recommend keeping an eye out for what she says about the skating each week.

Also, wrt Yuko, there's a far more straightforward and (to me) realistic answer. She's a mother, and has been acting like a mother/big sister to both Yuri and Yurio. Her chasing after Yurio is an extension of that.

As for me, this is tiring. I think I'd rather be writing more specific pieces about how the sport works and the implications for what we're seeing on screen. And I think most of you are probably sick of me too. So I'll see myself out and leave you all to it.
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Last edited by karice67; 2016-10-24 at 07:29.
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Old 2016-10-24, 07:17   Link #166
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That moment when Yuuri have been asking how to move like a woman reminded me of how relunctant Wong Fei Hong was about it in Jackie Chan's The Drunken Master (the Miss Ho part).
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Old 2016-10-24, 07:31   Link #167
judasmartel
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Has anyone seen this guy in this anime already?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Christian_Martinez

I was kinda hoping the Philippines would be represented in this show, considering this guy I mentioned represented us in the World Skating Champs, but I guess he won't be appearing here. So much for the hype.
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Old 2016-10-24, 17:11   Link #168
Arya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
@Arya
Quads are tiring, especially if this is the first time a skater incorporates two into his program. Yurio hasn't been allowed to skate quads for the past few years. Yuri presumably has been using the quad-toe. Furthermore, Nishigiri tells us that Yuri has fantastic stamina. Given where they are in their careers, I can easily believe Yuri would hold it together better given his experience.
Sorry, but in this episode, while showing the programs first time, Vicktor asked expressly about quads and Yuuri said he was fine with toe but never done Salchow in competition. Later he even asked Yurio to teach him how to land a quad salchow.
Also, Yurio was shown to do quads in competition before, taking the promise into account, that should mean he was doing quads from the age of 12/13.
It's clearly a a strong indication of who is the most experienced in quad between them.
So your explanation works for Yuri, not Yurio.
And that's why it would be odd that Yurio got exhausted while Yuri didn't if the reason was strictly physical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
And finally, they've only been skating these programs for a week. Most skaters can't skate their programs cleanly in that time. The skating season started about a month ago in RL, and the skaters have been working on their programs since at least May or June. But very few of the top skaters have had great skates yet. It just isn't that easy.
Again in this episode, after Yuri told Vicktor about his lack of experience about jumps, Vicktor expressly stated that then he (yuri) should have started with the basics, and that he would have taught Yurio first. So again, it's Yuri who fell behind from the very first moment even when it comes about learning their programs.

That's why the only technical reason for this disparity, ruling out Yurio high vulnerability factor, should be a different treatment from Vicktor.
Yuri's program was said to have the quad combo in the last part of it due to Yuri's high stamina, and that means that Vicktor sized the program on Yuri strengths, so it's expected he did the same for Yuri, so why he was so exhausted? But hoestly the previous points kinda imply how it was Yuri to have it harder.

The narrative has been steadily consistent in that, and in other aspects. If I may say it's kinda like you focused too much on the technicality of the skating and overlooked some of the actual content the story is providing.

By the way I do find the narrative pretty packed of content all around, it's liek each time you look at a point some detail pop up that you didn't notice before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Also, wrt Yuko, there's a far more straightforward and (to me) realistic answer. She's a mother, and has been acting like a mother/big sister to both Yuri and Yurio. Her chasing after Yurio is an extension of that.
About Yuko I wanted to bring up the maternal instinct but it was late and I didn't. But of course the core of Yuko's character seems to be she is a mother. But I found more interesting where Yurio and especially Yuri position about that. Yuri performance was framed as a confession moment, but that would be really odd if you consider Yuko is a wife and a mother already. But if you put it into another perspective, the key point is not really or simply, his love, but the sense of comfort Yuko give to him. From that point onward I couldn't avoid to latch it with yurio and the reversal presentation this episode provided of both Yurio / Yuri couple and Victor / Yuko's respectively. Because, I don't know, it fits perfectly for me.
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
As for me, this is tiring. I think I'd rather be writing more specific pieces about how the sport works and the implications for what we're seeing on screen. And I think most of you are probably sick of me too. So I'll see myself out and leave you all to it.
Well, not me, but if it can't be helped ...
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Old 2016-10-24, 17:29   Link #169
ChronoReverse
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Quote:
Also, Yurio was shown to do quads in competition before, taking the promise into account, that should mean he was doing quads from the age of 12/13.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Yurio not have done quads before (in competition) because he wasn't allowed to (in juniors)?

Also, I read that apparently falling a jump isn't a catastrophe if you complete your rotation.
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Old 2016-10-25, 04:07   Link #170
Arya
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Yurio not have done quads before (in competition) because he wasn't allowed to (in juniors)?
To be correct he stopped doing quads in competitions not because he wasn't allowed, but because of the promise with Vicktor.
But yeah, I was a bit confused there. What I was trying to do was to date the earlier age of Yurio we can be sure he was already able to do quads.

Spoiler for how I infered it:

In any case, the point I was trying to underline is that the story set Yurio as a gifted athlete on par with Vicktor from the very early stages, in comparison to Yuri that is supposed to be talentless. Or so we have been told and his career, and skills seems to be a proof of it, until now that they started their personal journey.
So, what is the problem? It's mental. That's my whole point about Yurio. For Yuri is that he couldn't conform himself to the society.
Well, that's how I've interpreted things so far at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Also, I read that apparently falling a jump isn't a catastrophe if you complete your rotation.
Well, I can't really comment on it. Personally after reading the analysis of Karice and her links I can say that Yuri won the contest, even if at first I founded Yurio the better one. But I guess it was because I connected more with his performance, all the build up of Yurio practically exploded during his performance and it was emotional (for me) seeing him so vulnerable. He is really a kitten!!
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Last edited by Arya; 2016-10-25 at 04:35. Reason: typos
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Old 2016-10-25, 06:07   Link #171
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't Yurio not have done quads before (in competition) because he wasn't allowed to (in juniors)?
That's right. Yakov's reasoning is that he didn't want Yurio to injure himself during puberty. There is an 11-year-old who is working on a quad Salchow right now - it'll be interesting to see if they stop him using them when he hits his growth spurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
Also, I read that apparently falling a jump isn't a catastrophe if you complete your rotation.
It's not. For example, the lowest score a skater would receive for a fully-rotated quad-toe is 6.3 points (7.33 if in the second half of his program). A perfect triple-toe would net him, at best, 6.4 points (6.83 if in the second half). So the risk tends to be worth it (with a few caveats that are relevant mostly for the longer free program).


@Arya

Most of not all of the issues you've raise can be addressed, but it would require me to draw on things that I've picked up from following the sport for over two years now. Don't get me wrong - I'm a baby fan in the grand scheme of things. But even then, I've probably watched something like 40 hours of skating over the last two years, sometimes looking for several different TV commentaries on the same performance (e.g. British Eurosports, NBC, CBC - I've even listened to Japanese commentators). I've also read and watched interviews with skaters, coaches and choreographers. Information is scattered across all of these sources, and I simply don't have the time to pull them together for discussion here.

From what I can see, anime fans who only pay attention to figure skating once every four years (if at all) may need more of a primer on the sport. I've been hoping that the show will explain some of these things - maybe they will in episode 4, since it seems to be about Victor and Yuri working on his free program...

In any case, it's just not something I feel works in the discussion format here, because there is so much information involved. So I do have to pull out.
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You must free yourself from that illusion,
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- Patrick Stokes

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Old 2016-10-25, 10:49   Link #172
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@karice67: I hope too they will address some points along the road, that would be interesting.
Anyways, I'm indeed an anime viewer first and foremost, and on that I ground my own interpretation. And it's not a problem if I'll be proven wrong (as far as the explanation makes sense and doesn't contradict itself).

What I think is that a good narrative should not delegate its role to something so unintelligible to require a senior expert in the field, as you are suggesting, to be explained. Between that and the narrative itself I will always choose the latter no matter how wrong I'll be. (so if Yuri asks to Yurio to be taught at something, or all the other details the show provided, I will interpret it as it, at face value if not implied otherwise).
That's just to explain my approach, that in this case is at the exact opposite of yours and for that reason it's hard to find a common ground.

Well, that's it. I've said everything I had to say on the matter for now. I just hope the story keeps delivering as it has been doing until now not going off along some dangerous tangents.
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Old 2016-10-25, 11:22   Link #173
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An analysis of the two skating programs: http://lazuliblade.tumblr.com/post/1...g-the-programs

tl;dr From a technical analysis with knowledge of how scores are calculated, Yuuri definitely deserved his win.


I'm quite amazed how much the animation team did their homework.
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Old 2016-10-25, 11:53   Link #174
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
I'm quite amazed how much the animation team did their homework.
The writer and the choreographer. They have a choreographer (this guy, he was also the one who did the choreography for Endless Night) who plans the programs according to, I guess, the writers' goals. So it's not quite the animators doing their homework, it's the creative team having an expert on board.
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Old 2016-10-25, 13:24   Link #175
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So it's not quite the animators doing their homework...
In addition to which the skating scenes are rotoscoped so you probably need rather photoshoppers than animators anyway.
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Old 2016-10-25, 13:45   Link #176
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Huh, I read wrong. It's nice looking rotoscoping though.
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Old 2016-10-26, 05:00   Link #177
Arya
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
An analysis of the two skating programs: http://lazuliblade.tumblr.com/post/1...g-the-programs

tl;dr From a technical analysis with knowledge of how scores are calculated, Yuuri definitely deserved his win.
That was an interesting reading. And it helped me to get Karice position better. In the end it seems like I was giving Yurio too much credit (the rumor he was based off Yulia Lipnitskaya is partially responsible for it).
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Old 2016-10-26, 06:12   Link #178
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Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
It's nice looking rotoscoping though.
Not really. They skip lot of frames and the result is therefore jerky.

If you want to see what you can do with rotoscoping today take a look below. All characters there are computer generated based on rotoscoping:
Spoiler for video:
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Old 2016-10-26, 06:32   Link #179
karice67
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
(so if Yuri asks to Yurio to be taught at something, or all the other details the show provided, I will interpret it as it, at face value if not implied otherwise).
That's fine as an approach. The problem is that "face value" means something different if you have even a little context. For example, Yuuri saying that he can land quad salchows in practice means that he has worked on them for at least one to two years, if not more. Furthermore, doing a quad simply means adding one more rotation to a triple of the same jump--not that it's easy, but he obviously knows what the jump actually involves. It's a matter of improving his technique so that he can consistently pull it off.

And in that context, then Victor telling Yuuri to do "basic practice" (translated as "the basics") means that he wants Yuuri to work on elements like jumps (as well as spins and footwork), so that he can show Victor what he can do. It makes sense, because Victor can only teach one person his routine at a time. It also makes sense for Yuuri to ask Yurio about better technique (NOT to teach him the jump in the first place, which he already knows how to do).

As you can imagine, trying to explain this kind of thing for each and every little misunderstanding would be a little...frustrating, let's say.
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You must free yourself from that illusion,
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Old 2016-10-26, 09:58   Link #180
ChronoReverse
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Originally Posted by Moroboshi-kun View Post
Not really. They skip lot of frames and the result is therefore jerky.

If you want to see what you can do with rotoscoping today take a look below. All characters there are computer generated based on rotoscoping:
Spoiler for video:
That's not a fair comparison though. Broadcast anime is at 15-25 FPS (for cost reasons) so you have to judge it at that level. Only very short segments can be animated at high FPS in a given series without devolving the quality of the drawings.

Besides, doing it via 3D graphics is an entirely different process. Motion tracking is the normal way to do it and I don't see why they'd bother with rotoscoping so your example is a strange one.
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