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Old 2011-04-18, 07:24   Link #121
kirisute_gomen
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How can they take Konoha seriously? Konoha's organization has always been a mess. Instead of talking to Naruto early they try to buy time and wait until Naruto's already decided what to do. Next they come at him with nothing but flies against him who defeated Pain. How can they even think they were able to stop Naruto with those lowlevel ninjas? Shadow bind has always been blown off... by Tayuya and many more. It was clear that it wouldn't stop Naruto. Not even Yamato could have stopped Naruto because there's no necklace and no stupod Kyuubi suppression technique anymore.

Naruto must be captured, maybe after losing to Sasuke once again. His mother has been shown to be able to survive the Kyuubi extraction. I can see it. Naruto and Kirabi get captured. Naruto survives the extraction. Sakura uses Chiyo's medical ninjutsu and heals Naruto with her life force, then she dies. Naruto will get some essential jutsu before or afterwards... the shunshin jutsu and some other sealing techniques and he'll somehow win the game.
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Old 2011-04-18, 07:52   Link #122
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Random thought: Kabuto should revive the sound 4 again so they can form up that barrier and stop reinforcements. He already revived Kimimaro. And so we can see Tayuya again.
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Old 2011-04-18, 08:02   Link #123
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Originally Posted by kirisute_gomen View Post
Naruto must be captured, maybe after losing to Sasuke once again. His mother has been shown to be able to survive the Kyuubi extraction. I can see it. Naruto and Kirabi get captured. Naruto survives the extraction. Sakura uses Chiyo's medical ninjutsu and heals Naruto with her life force, then she dies. Naruto will get some essential jutsu before or afterwards... the shunshin jutsu and some other sealing techniques and he'll somehow win the game.
I think that WSJ will not follow that idea...
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Old 2011-04-18, 08:16   Link #124
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I think that WSJ will not follow that idea...
If Naruto can survive the Kyuubi extraction the way his mother did, then I doubt Sakura would neccessarily need to sacrifice herself. And even if that was neccessary, I would think Tsunade would do it because she believes in Naruto and doesn't want someone else sharing the dreams of the ones she loved to die. This would give Naruto all the room he needs to properly master Senjutsu and use it with granma and granpa toad the way Jiraya was.
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Old 2011-04-18, 08:59   Link #125
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Sakura doesn't neccessarily have to die if she tries to save Naruto with her life force anyway. Chiyo managed to save Sakura first and managed to survive. She only died doing it the second time.
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Old 2011-04-18, 09:26   Link #126
james0246
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^Naruto already has three seperate life sources stowed away inside him (Minato, Kushina and Itachi), that there shouldn't be a reason for Sakura or Tsunade to do anything.
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Old 2011-04-18, 09:42   Link #127
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Naruto already has three seperate life sources stowed away inside him (Minato, Kushina and Itachi), that there shouldn't be a reason for Sakura or Tsunade to do anything.
Minato an kushina are gone now, though. Their chakra was used up when the Kyuubi was almost released and then when Naruto mastered using the chakra.

Right now he has himself and he has the Kyuubi within him, plus that crow Itachi stuffed down his mouth. Plus he can summon nature chakra so they can always use Ploy no Jutsu to has him take in the life force to heal himself
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Old 2011-04-18, 13:07   Link #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirisute_gomen View Post
How can they take Konoha seriously? Konoha's organization has always been a mess. Instead of talking to Naruto early they try to buy time and wait until Naruto's already decided what to do. Next they come at him with nothing but flies against him who defeated Pain. How can they even think they were able to stop Naruto with those lowlevel ninjas? Shadow bind has always been blown off... by Tayuya and many more. It was clear that it wouldn't stop Naruto. Not even Yamato could have stopped Naruto because there's no necklace and no stupod Kyuubi suppression technique anymore.
Talking to Naruto is pointless, he doesn't listen. If they had told him the war had started sooner he would also have left sooner is all. And Tsunade well knew that they couldn't stop Naruto, that's why she asked them to delay Naruto as much as possible. They are at war, it's not like they can stack that many people on top of Naruto.
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Old 2011-04-18, 15:25   Link #129
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Well if you want to believe that Sakura can just walk/sneak up to Sasuke and stab him with a kunai then believe that
To be fair, Sasuke wasn't exactly in his best condition but again, constantly switching out of in-story, and out-of-story perspectives and including "Kishi" as you guys love to call him, will make things pretty murky and creates unecessary ambiguity.

So, you're saying that Sakura cannot get the drop on Sasuke, yet she irrefutably did; and your rebuttal against this is that "Kishi", did this for [reason X]... You do realize this excuse can be made for virtually any event in the manga right? Including the author in the argument as if he is actually in the story is not a good idea, it just creates points for unecessary ambiguity in the sense that every event can potentially be dismissed in this way, so theres nearly limitless amount of ways the story can be constructed, instead of the way it actually is constructed...(probably why your debates are usually so long )

You cannot just pick and choose which events you want to be real, and which events you believe the author "just made happen because of [reason X]". If an event happened, then it happened, its canon, irrefutable --"Kishi" as you like to call him doesn't have anything to do with Sakura and Sasuke, because theres no such character called "Kishi" in the Naruto universe.
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Old 2011-04-18, 15:39   Link #130
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You don't have to switch from an in/out of story perspective for this though.
If Shika, Chouji and Ino were in the exact same situation -ie a sneak attack from behind against Sasuke already wounded, exhausted, almost blind and fighting Kakashi- then I surely hope for them that they'd have a chance to land a serious blow and possibly a fatal one.
But that's not quite the point being made at the beginning of this discussion, place those three against a still fresh Sasuke and they're dead, period. Just as they would be if they had attacked Kinkaku alone.
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Old 2011-04-18, 15:53   Link #131
james0246
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Talking to Naruto is pointless, he doesn't listen. If they had told him the war had started sooner he would also have left sooner is all. And Tsunade well knew that they couldn't stop Naruto, that's why she asked them to delay Naruto as much as possible. They are at war, it's not like they can stack that many people on top of Naruto.
When you're always right, it's kind of hard to listen to those who are always wrong....

Naruto has simply become an entirely too unrealistic character...but, I still prefer him coming in and upping the battles to their extremes and actually moving the story along to the endless meandering that is currently occurring. It's nice to see side characters get their little fights, but when said fights have little bearing on the actual story let alone the main characters I begin to loss interest quite fast. (In many respects, I feel like Naruto represents the audience and the shinobi in Naruto's way that prevent him from entering the war represent Kishimoto...)
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Old 2011-04-18, 16:13   Link #132
Ulquiorra
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Naruto has simply become an entirely too unrealistic character...but, I still prefer him coming in and upping the battles to their extremes and actually moving the story along to the endless meandering that is currently occurring. It's nice to see side characters get their little fights, but when said fights have little bearing on the actual story let alone the main characters I begin to loss interest quite fast. (In many respects, I feel like Naruto represents the audience and the shinobi in Naruto's way that prevent him from entering the war represent Kishimoto...)
Is Naruto even moving the story? If Kishimoto has him take out some ET zombies, like the jinchuuriki for example, he'd be accomplsihing no more than the side characters. His actions would have no bearing on the actual story. Outside of him going straight for Madara or Kabuto, he simply becomes another player in the war. No different than Kakashi, Gaara, Shikamaru, Ino, Kankuro, etc.

It seems like the only character who can move the plot is Madara. Either by changing the nature of this war or by capturing either Naruto or Kirabi. That's why based on the preview, I am looking forward to this next chapter. Other than that, there is very little Kishi can do but continue with the battles. We still have side characters like Gaara, Neji, and Hinata who have yet to fight.
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Old 2011-04-18, 16:20   Link #133
james0246
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^I honestly don't expect Naruto to fight any zombies (maybe Itachi, but that's more of an Uchiha/Sasuke thing), and I don't expect him to appear for several chapters yet. We'll still get a few more pointless fights, then something important will happen and Naruto will appear. But, the very action of Naruto going to war is more story development than we have received since the Kabuto/Madara discussion 10-15 chapters ago.
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Old 2011-04-18, 16:20   Link #134
Ero-Senn1n
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It seems as if everybody is assuming that Naruto will join the war. But he is currently far away, it might be that something or someone interrupt his travel. It could be even Madara and Sasuke if Kishimoto wants to do something unexpected. Sure i don't expect a Naruto vs Sasuke this soon, but by now Sasuke's new eyes should be ready, and Kishimoto might want to do this plot twist.

BTW i just found an interesting article on plot twist types, it seems that many of these have already been used in Naruto, i wonder which type will be next

Some that i can remember from the story:
1, In Medias Res -> the manga starts with the death of the 4th hokage, but strictly speaking this is not a good example.
2, Chekhov’s Gun -> the 9 tailed fox in Naruto
3, Unreliable Narrator -> Madara seems to be the best candidate
4, Anagnorisis -> Itachi being a good guy
5, The Least Likely Villian -> for Itachi it would be the opposite would be the least likely hero As for the villain, it's Tobi alias Madara, when he was introduced i suspected already that he might be as strong as the leader, simply because he was "the least likely"
6, Non-Linear Timeline -> the heavy use of flashbacks can be counted as such, for example the revelations about Naruto's parents, Itachi's story, etc.
7, Ambiguous Ending -> fortunately the manga didn't end yet For the sub-stories, maybe the ending with Jiraiya leaving the 3 kids to their fate was kinda ambiguous.
8, Not Over Yet -> of course this is probably the most used in Naruto battles, i guess in this war the alliance is now at a point of winning too much, but it's "not over yet"
9, Hero to Villain -> Sasuke i guess
10, Deus Ex Machina -> this cheap trick is used in Naruto too we have seen many complaints on the forums about these. Like Nagato reviving everybody from a large distance without having his Pain bodies and low on chakra. Minato appearing from nowhere in Naruto's mind. And so on...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
To be fair, Sasuke wasn't exactly in his best condition but again, constantly switching out of in-story, and out-of-story perspectives and including "Kishi" as you guys love to call him, will make things pretty murky and creates unecessary ambiguity.

So, you're saying that Sakura cannot get the drop on Sasuke, yet she irrefutably did; and your rebuttal against this is that "Kishi", did this for [reason X]... You do realize this excuse can be made for virtually any event in the manga right? Including the author in the argument as if he is actually in the story is not a good idea, it just creates points for unecessary ambiguity in the sense that every event can potentially be dismissed in this way, so theres nearly limitless amount of ways the story can be constructed, instead of the way it actually is constructed...(probably why your debates are usually so long )

You cannot just pick and choose which events you want to be real, and which events you believe the author "just made happen because of [reason X]". If an event happened, then it happened, its canon, irrefutable --"Kishi" as you like to call him doesn't have anything to do with Sakura and Sasuke, because theres no such character called "Kishi" in the Naruto universe.
There is no problem with all that since it is just my opinion about the story, someone else may have his own, so that we can have a debate about that. As i wrote earlier i don't base my opinion strictly on facts, i just try to guess what's the author's will based on all what's happened. And in my opinion the author's will was to power up and hype up both Naruto and Sasuke to such a high level that all these 11 ex-rookies togethere can't reach them. And if you don't like the "Kishi" we can just be more formal and call him "the author" I'm not "including the author in the story", i'm just guessing what are his intentions with different characters. Of course there is ambiguity since we are often discussing about events that will never occur, for example a battle between Sasuke and the konoha-11-rookies will probably never occur because "the author" wants a Naruto vs Sasuke battle, therefore we will never know directly from the story if Sasuke would win or lose in such a battle. We will be able to answer this only indirectly, when we look at the performance of the rookies in the war and compare that to Sasuke's performance against Naruto. So i think we can return to this after you have seen Sasuke's EMS at it's full power BTW i hope Kishimoto will finally find a way to show Neji, for now it seems as if he forgot about him.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2011-04-18 at 17:11.
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Old 2011-04-18, 16:26   Link #135
Hunter
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
When you're always right, it's kind of hard to listen to those who are always wrong....
Hah! Don't I know that
More seriously it's sad but true, since reality vindicates Naruto when he acts like a dumbass there is really no reason for him to stop acting like one.
It's more the Messiah thing that annoys me, Naruto being clinically retarded is nothing new and honestly it comes with the territory with most Shounen main characters.
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Old 2011-04-18, 23:31   Link #136
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
BTW i just found an interesting article on plot twist types, it seems that many of these have already been used in Naruto, i wonder which type will be next

Some that i can remember from the story:
1, In Medias Res -> the manga starts with the death of the 4th hokage, but strictly speaking this is not a good example.
2, Chekhov’s Gun -> the 9 tailed fox in Naruto
3, Unreliable Narrator -> Madara seems to be the best candidate
4, Anagnorisis -> Itachi being a good guy
5, The Least Likely Villian -> for Itachi it would be the opposite would be the least likely hero As for the villain, it's Tobi alias Madara, when he was introduced i suspected already that he might be as strong as the leader, simply because he was "the least likely"
6, Non-Linear Timeline -> the heavy use of flashbacks can be counted as such, for example the revelations about Naruto's parents, Itachi's story, etc.
7, Ambiguous Ending -> fortunately the manga didn't end yet For the sub-stories, maybe the ending with Jiraiya leaving the 3 kids to their fate was kinda ambiguous.
8, Not Over Yet -> of course this is probably the most used in Naruto battles, i guess in this war the alliance is now at a point of winning too much, but it's "not over yet"
9, Hero to Villain -> Sasuke i guess
10, Deus Ex Machina -> this cheap trick is used in Naruto too we have seen many complaints on the forums about these. Like Nagato reviving everybody from a large distance without having his Pain bodies and low on chakra. Minato appearing from nowhere in Naruto's mind. And so on...
The one real plot twist that can change things is for Madara to get the Alliance to turn on itself by using the Daimyo. That would change this war from an exercise in zombie killing minutia to something with actual substance. It would add drama to these fights. I am sorry, but people screaming at a crying mentally challenged fat kid for five chapters doesn't add drama.

It will also allow Naruto a role as the unifier of the Alliance. He is the Messiah after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
BTW i hope Kishimoto will finally find a way to show Neji, for now it seems as if he forgot about him.
Neji and Hinata will fight Hizashi with Hiashi. That's really the only role for him given how low down on the totem pole his character is. I find it funny that Neji, with 359 degree vision, got grabbed and raped by one Zetsu. Meanwhile Shikamaru and Ino can spot them from ten miles away and treat them like rag dolls. Shippuden has not been kind to Neji.
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Old 2011-04-20, 01:31   Link #137
james0246
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Chapter 536 Discussion has been opened. Please move relevant discussions to the new thread...
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Old 2011-05-30, 09:44   Link #138
kirisute_gomen
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^Naruto already has three seperate life sources stowed away inside him (Minato, Kushina and Itachi), that there shouldn't be a reason for Sakura or Tsunade to do anything.
Minato is not there anymore. His life force is gone. He restored the seal and now he is gone. Even Kushina is gone now. She used her power to support Naruto to create the new seal. Now only Itachi is left and he just gave Naruto a share of his power, not all of it.
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