Kamen Rider General Discussion

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Should I describe the nature of the spoiler in detail? Like "info not from a TV episode" or something?

That's one way. Another, perhaps better way, is to say where the info came from. Such as "info from Source X". That way if someone doesn't want to know about info from Source X, they'll know not to open the box. (Keep in mind that I know nothing about the Kamen Rider franchise, so I'm advising based on general principle.)

[Dengar]

I meant when reporting, actually. :P I tried reporting a few times and nothing happened, I thought maybe I didn't provide enough info.

But yeah lets return to the original topic at hand.

[Fireminer]

Does anyone think that Gramps is making Takeru to do his dirty works?

Oh, how many times did Blade made use of that "Under the bridge" setting. So nostalgic!

[Dengar]

The main episode plotlines are kind of bland and uninspired. I'm interested in where the metaplot is going though.

[The 48th Ronin]

So Ganmas need to kill the host to get the Eyecon?

[Kanon]

So we have another Rider competing with the hero for the eyecons. I wonder if he's also a dead guy trying to come back to life, or if he has another wish he wants granted.

Gramps is starting to look fishy.

[Patriot's Blade]

Originally Posted by Kanon

So we have another Rider competing with the hero for the eyecons. I wonder if he's also a dead guy trying to come back to life, or if he has another wish he wants granted.

Gramps is starting to look fishy.

so Yurusen is Kyubey voiced by Kaname Madoka? zomg!

[demino_hellsin]

I'm only up to episode 3 but I think the single contained episodes is really hurting the writer's style. Either that or the writer just can't adjust. I don't think the ideas are bad as so much the pacing makes 0 sense for the dialogue taking place. I'm really hoping that things get better for ghost after the toy commercial episodes are done because right now it's a downright mess.

[Patriot's Blade]

i think the toy commercial syndrome became worst after OOO, resulting in plot holes such as useful powers that will be handy as heck suddenly being forgotten,
being recently is Drive, i mean we have killer powers in the likes of Midnight Shadow, Dimension Cab, Colorful Commercial, & Deco Traveler, where the heck did those guys went when the situation already spelled doom for Shinosuke? are they just being dicks to him?

[demino_hellsin]

Might run counter to my beliefs but I think Fourze handled their toyline pretty well. I mean sure some of the tools were more handy than the others being featured that episode but none of them were as contrived as say Wizard. Not even as bad as early OOOs if I would be so bold as to say.

I do agree again that drive really misused the shiftcars especially MaxFlare, FunkySpike and MidnightShadow considering all the things just those three are capable of were far greater than the combination of Choiju Genba or something. Honestly I didn't even bother to get their combo names right, that's how disinterested I was with the industrial trio by that point when Form Tridoron just kept spamming the crap out of them. And let's be honest again, the only reason he spammed that was for the drill, that was it.

Wizard's power set was so messed up that it was even a joke during the netmovies. I believe it was the one with fortune telling skit where Beast was the guest and they poked fun at beast having no structure to his abilities then he countered with Wizard's being all over the place as well. Which everyone agreed as true in the end.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Patriot's Blade

i think the toy commercial syndrome became worst after OOO, resulting in plot holes such as useful powers that will be handy as heck suddenly being forgotten,
being recently is Drive, i mean we have killer powers in the likes of Midnight Shadow, Dimension Cab, Colorful Commercial, & Deco Traveler, where the heck did those guys went when the situation already spelled doom for Shinosuke? are they just being dicks to him?

Midnight Shadow isn't really killer powers. While it capable of clones, we can see its shuriken damage output is lower than Max Flare and Funky Spike.
Dimension Cab isn't really killer powers as well, its not a free teleportation as it requires the wheel to be present outside as teleportation gate when used in Tire Koukan, if you mean by using its teleportation gate as Shift Car, too bad the portal size will be the size of Shift Car as well; what kind of killer powers can come from Colorful Commercial and Deco Traveler again?

I don't think Shift Car is having case of 'handy power being forgotten' as they sometimes used at case that requires specific treat or help at unexpected development, although people can argue about Massive Monster and Amazing Circus; Shin gave clue to Belt-san to sent Dimension Cab to save him from Nira's bullet, is that means Dimension Cab is forgotten? Shin once ask Midnight Shadow to spy on Nira too ...

I don't see any problem with Type Tridoron abusing Choujigenba to use drill.
Most fight happens close-quarter and drill is a good choice as it capable of piercing damage compare to other weapons.
Even Chase, the one with highest defense capabilities among them, already taste how powerful the charged drill is, twice (as Machine Chaser and KR) with both done by Gou. What's the reason for not abusing the drill again?

[demino_hellsin]

However, you have to remember that Midnight Shadow allowed him to use both cloning AND energy shurikens at the same time. What he doesn't have in raw power he can make up for in sheer spam. Dimension Cab is certainly not killer but it does afford for some flexibility. It's possible to use Dimension Cab for Shin to attack from two places at the same times given a little leverage in creativity and budget, however inelegant the appearance may be. That is perhaps one of the things that made me love W and Fourze approach a bit to their toys as their approaches in reusing abilities were not always elegant(Every single Joker Maximum Drive) but they grew on me for the sheer insanity and tenacious theme sticking they took. I mean Dimension Cab from above with a downward punch while the rest of him runs up to do and uppercut maybe?

The weird thing about Colorful Commercial and DecoTraveller is I don't remember both being used, however I remember one or both of them having the power to make fake images/realistic holograms. That is almost in line with Midnight Shadow in terms of being a trickster styled fighter. It's also implied that even unequipped that their constructs don't immediately fade so Drive could use them, Tire Kouka to something else, then surprise the enemy that he'd actually changed tires a third time which was camouflaged by a fake tire image from Colorful Commercial and DecoTraveler.

I think it's more like the writer didn't have enough time to factor in ALL the toys because the toys are made before the series. With so many trinkets to cover, it becomes a lot more difficult to keep track or make them all interesting, however I still think they could have handled the whole thing better. It almost felt like KR Drive was the screenwriter's other "other" job during that time.

ChoujiGenba spam is kind of inane to me because no matter how powerful it is, it is also shown to be slow. I don't know why but that's just the idea that came to me. That's pretty much the opposite of what Drive was all about, he was supposed to be speed. Notable to be the first main Rider with a "official statistics" to show a base form with less than 1 second time for 100 meter dash.

ChoujiGenba also showed far less flexibility than other possible combinations like Attack 1, 2, 3, which one can argue would become a CGI spamfest but when you think back on the powersets each applied individually, them running in concert could have been amazing. But I believe we've only ever seen that combo used twice: Debut and Ending, that's it. Done deal.

It actually makes sense for him to use drill against Chase because Shinosuke had already got it in his head that Chase is physically stronger than him, while everything else was a draw within the margin of error. He preferred to use Wild and Drill against Chase specifically because that was the case he pointed out during their early encounters. Now shift your focus to the first battle with Heart. Heart is a power type but Shinnosuke used Type Technic. I forgot if it was halfway through the fight or right from the start but I remember is that he actually used it to look for a weakness in Heart and not just try to match strength for strength with Type Wild. Ofcourse that could only be because they needed screen time for Type Technic since it had just debuted but it was a nice touch for them to make smart use of the body types according to the situation. Now move on to when Shinnosuke with Type Tridoron, he uses ChoujiGenba a lot. Even against the modified reaper roidmudes. Those which shouldn't really be giving him a hard time at all even at base Tridoron in terms of raw strength. In fact the only meta I can think of him fighting in is not that he lacks the firepower to take them out but the means to connect a solid hit, something more variety in attack patterns would help with. And that's why I suggest Attack 1, 2, 3 or maybe some of the other combinations which never showed up at all.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by demino_hellsin

*snip*

And how powerful the energy shuriken can be? As I said, Midnight Shadow is lack of damage compare to others;
No matter how much clones made (if its possible), it'll just throwing little stones to enemy. Useful only for a short-term and low-class enemies, not really worked for long-term and late game enemies. For proof, what damaged Evolved Freeze significantly during Type Tridoron debut is fire-enhanced energy shuriken.

If throwing energy shuriken is more than enough and really significant as you believe, there'll be no need to enhanced it with fire from Max Flare.
Not to mention clones response implied to be limited, unlike Gatakiriba which a perfect clone (and can be abused), most late game enemies won't find problem to wipe it out.

Using Dimensional Cab's ability for a dual casual punch? One from Drive other side, one coming from the portal?
Personally I think it won't even gave problem to later enemies as they can identify where will the attack come from just by looking at the wheel.

Its not that I didn't like variety of attacks in cases you need a solid hit.
However, what other weapon in Drive arsenal that can guarantee solid damage to enemies other than the drill?
As the series progress after Type-Tridoron debut, the need of solid damage is more necessary than variety of attacks; look at how Type Tridoron (People Saver) duet with Mach Deadheat is practically nothing for Evolved Heart despite their high hit rate (they even aim for Heart's heart, his weakness) following your picture of attack variety.

So yeah, it became a choice; which one better, attack variety or monotone-but-solid-damage.
In this case, attack variety can't guarantee damage to late game enemies despite high attack rate hence the constant use of Choujigenba.

[demino_hellsin]

I'm not saying that Midnight Shadow is the answer to everything or can curbstomp a super evolved roidmude, the implication is that Midnight Shadow is not as limited in ability as it seems to be in the series. Honestly you're kind of proving my point that there is relevance to using an alternative to ChoujiGenba because you just described Attack 1, 2, 3 in the case of explaining that a Fire-infused energy Shuriken more than sufficiently damaged Super Evolved Freeze.

As for Dimensional Cab, I am not implying it will wreck everything Shinnosuke encounters either. Though I'm going to put a positive bet on effectiveness in what Drive should be able to do in Type-Tridoron while equipping the Trio where Dimensional Cab is involved with. Also to put an end to that idea of plain Tire Koukas being implied to defeat later roidmudes, it's a bit of a weird argument because we all know that it's established that first tier forms are crap by the time mid-season upgrades kick-in*coughTypeFormulacough*

My Post tridoron argument revolves around the problem of how he even uses ChoujiGenba even against non-commander enemies. Heck, it's pretty much stated in the series multiple times that Type Tridoron has the power of a super evolved roidmude. Why is he having so much trouble against those Reapers that he has to pull in his "boss equipment"? And even when armed with ChoujiGenba he is shown to still be having trouble.

Heart's case for survival is special. I agree that your analysis is correct. For me however that is only looking at it at face value. Remember that Heart's ability even as a regular evolved roidmude is special. He enters a state called DeadZone that allows him to tap into practically unlimited power. This is the same power as DeadHeat which has allowed Mach to remain relevant in terms of powerscale throughout the series even as the enemies progressed to include super-evolved enemies.

My view on that particular time is that Heart entered the battlefield already at a heightened emotional state, meaning he was already in DeadZone to some extent. Considering budget constraints we can also see that some scenes do not have a visual effect for the riders to enter into DeadZone while using DeadHeat but implied to have already gone into the state. What makes it so different with Heart then? Now consider that Heart in DeadZone is already facing down Type Mach and Type Tridoron then evolves. That is stacking his DeadZone and Super Evolution powers giving him superior brute force compared to both. Because Shinnosuke only had power equal to a Super Evolved while Mach had only the DeadZone. In a way it was logical that Heart would have the upper hand then.

Going beyond Heart, I'm pretty sure Shinnosuke went Attack 1, 2, 3 against Sigma. This goes under the assumption that he needed a better hit rate than power. And we can also infer that Sigma has superior toughness to Heart but Shinnosuke thinks that Attack 1, 2, 3 is enough to damage Sigma because he used that before using the (now becoming standard)overcharge final attack instead of calling in ChoujiGenba.

[The 48th Ronin]

So you guys think the 1-episode arcs are worse than 2-episode ones?

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by demino_hellsin

*snip*

You forgot the reason why the flame-infused shuriken can deal significant damage to Evolved Freeze is because Freeze weak against fire-element and evolution didn't eliminate the weakness just like how Heart weakness still the same and lead to his death on the finale.

I'm not saying the Dimensional Cab will wreck everything either;
I've said it in previous post, Dimensional Cab had (visible, if not obvious) weakness which the tire is basically the teleportation gate;
Enemies can track Dimensional Cab tire, which IMHO make that kind of strategy is practically useless against skilled and commander-level enemies.

I do agree that there's time where Type-Tridoron surprisingly found it difficult to deal with Reapers. However Reapers is modified Roidmude, while they aren't equal to Ultimate Evolution being modified grant them better tenacity to some extent. A good example maybe 004, while he's not a Reaper, being the only Roidmude designed by Banno to be his loyal assistant grant him capabilities to survive over Attack 1-2-3 Rider Kick (which wounded Heart before he evolved) and capable of self-destructing in scale that made everyone there thanks to Gou, feats that can't be achieved by regular Roidmudes.

Well, based on the battle, even Handle-ken (with Heart help) is enough to deal with Sigma barrier. If Handle-ken wasn't enough, I believe Shin wouldn't have any choice but rely on Koujigenba again to pierce the barrier.

Originally Posted by Captain Orange

So you guys think the 1-episode arcs are worse than 2-episode ones?

Depends on the execution.

[demino_hellsin]

Similarly speaking I think weakness to flame wouldn't have mattered much without sufficient power anyway. Or else he could have just won with Type Speed MaxFlare. Hitting a weakness has no merit if you lack the power to back it up, as with the way half the encounters with Heart had the riders striking him in the Heart and he tanked all the hits and got stronger from them.

Dimensional Cab's effectiveness being hampered by the tell of the forming tire gate will be a disadvantage. But remember that the gate can form pretty much anywhere, even somewhere out of sight. It's also implied that the gate can be opened and closed quickly even as a shift car as a gate opened in the moment a bullet was supposed to hit Shinnosuke and disappeared promptly after. Those two possible traits combined are more than enough to balance out the weakness, making it a viable choice against slower enemies.

I'm not sure about that one because I don't remember the circumstances of the battle well. From what I remember 004 was going to break anyway which is why he self-destructed before it could happen or something. He wasn't exactly walking away from the attack.

Remember that you wrote he damaged Sigma using Handle-Ken with Heart's help. If we include some of the toy features that never made it to the series but had no reason not to, Shinnosuke would have had the Pit Crew Combo of Mantan, Jacky and Spanner to fall on which would be superior to ChoujiGenba on all fronts.

I don't hate it but I don't think they're making the proper adjustments back from 2-episode or whole arcs back to self-contained single episodes.

[Dengar]

The number of episodes during an arc does not matter. What matters is what happens during said arc.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by demino_hellsin

Similarly speaking I think weakness to flame wouldn't have mattered much without sufficient power anyway. Or else he could have just won with Type Speed MaxFlare. Hitting a weakness has no merit if you lack the power to back it up, as with the way half the encounters with Heart had the riders striking him in the Heart and he tanked all the hits and got stronger from them.

Dimensional Cab's effectiveness being hampered by the tell of the forming tire gate will be a disadvantage. But remember that the gate can form pretty much anywhere, even somewhere out of sight. It's also implied that the gate can be opened and closed quickly even as a shift car as a gate opened in the moment a bullet was supposed to hit Shinnosuke and disappeared promptly after. Those two possible traits combined are more than enough to balance out the weakness, making it a viable choice against slower enemies.

I'm not sure about that one because I don't remember the circumstances of the battle well. From what I remember 004 was going to break anyway which is why he self-destructed before it could happen or something. He wasn't exactly walking away from the attack.

Remember that you wrote he damaged Sigma using Handle-Ken with Heart's help. If we include some of the toy features that never made it to the series but had no reason not to, Shinnosuke would have had the Pit Crew Combo of Mantan, Jacky and Spanner to fall on which would be superior to ChoujiGenba on all fronts.

I don't hate it but I don't think they're making the proper adjustments back from 2-episode or whole arcs back to self-contained single episodes.

You can't put Freeze and Heart on the same group in terms of vulnerability, the difference is (too) obvious with Heart's strength and ability.
Remind me of RPG once I played, weakness doesn't necessarily means higher damage that lead to faster victory. Especially when the boss capable to reduce the damage to the point its just slightly better than usual damage output against it; Heart fall into this category IMO. He have weakness, but his physical strength (and ability) managed to cover it.

Against slower enemies-- how much slower enemies to deal with again?
It's not like every situation can be deal with Dimension Cab; I tend to agree with writer's choice using Dimension Cab for rescue purposes instead of combat purposes since the first time I saw Dimension Cab, I can't see it help much on combat as its debut shown it can only teleports a portion of body (and used for rescue purpose as well).

Yes, 004 is going to break but he still have enough time to stand up and get into mid of the gathering.
I must say its an impressive feat for a not-even-evolved Roidmude (if not disposable pawn) considering how Attack 1-2-3 wounded Heart.
Looking at Reapers destroyed by Signal Axe finishers at the same episode, I'm pretty sure 004 got some upgrade since Banno allow him acting as his support to the very end, which kinda illogical considering 004 have no upgrade form and serve as Klim 'backup' (unless 004 got tweaked for sure, and I'm positive Banno is capable of this).

Can you really put spinning spanner on equal terms with spinning drill? ^^;

On the other side, all F1 crews power is attached to the tire (I can see Mantarn and Jacky worked, but Sparner ...);
Meanwhile, Koujigenba have two of them act as separate equipment, the weight and the drill; the weight is disposable, be it for good or bad reasons. Spin Mixer can help when the user need some range. The drill? I don't think I need to explain it. LOL; Koujigenba pretty much brought effective tools for combat purposes.

[demino_hellsin]

Well I'm only continuing your line of thought that Heart ultimately died from his weakness, which is getting hit in the Heart. Much like Freeze getting hit with flaming Shuriken kind of led to his downfall?

Doesn't have to be that much slower really. Just enough that the enemy doesn't have the reflexes to act even if they see the gate forming. I must have poor-hand eye coordination but I know from personal experience that reflexes aren't so perfect that you can take advantage of every tell every time. If the case of a tell were a problem then that would have made LunaJoker from Kamen Rider W impractical for combat because stretched limbs make bigger targets and also predictable attacks just by reading trajectory. In terms of rescue though, I have to disagree. It looks like the portal size is limited to Drive's torso width unless the cartoonic stuffing of too big things down the portal hole is a legitimate ability and not just a cartoonic effect.

Who knows? Maybe Bannou upgraded him purely for survivability purposes? I can't comment too much since I don't remember the cricumstances in that episode. Either way, reapers shouldn't be that big a deal by this point. Maybe almost as strong as type formula but they shouldn't be giving tridoron a run for his money. Unless you're implying they're as tough as 004

Even if you say that, spanner is part of the next tier set. It inherently should have more power. And yes, the tools are part of the tire design but it wouldn't be illogical to separate the tool parts from the wheel. Heck they could attach the wheel as is to Tridoron's wrists and leave the wheel design mix toolless on the chest.

Alternatively there was a combo which I believe was Monster, Wrecker and Traveller which would have given him access to those biting things, monster's tongue, wrecker's winch and deco traveller's obnoxious flash and noise(?)