Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

yes, because he showed them he could lead them to victory
not because they needed him to teach them about right and wrong (your original point was "they were terrorists!!!" and that they learned about right and wrong from lelouch)
he showed them he could get results using HIS way
which hurt just as many people

For one, the Black Knights didn't think much of Britannians in general before Lelouch came along.
Also, if they had never any chance of success, they were killing people for nothing but the petty satisfaction of annoying Britannia, whereas Lelouch made them able to get actual results.

why not ?

Already listed reasons. He risked his life as easily as those of the Black Knights, and he was planning to do so even before he got his Geass.
Without it, he never had much of a chance to survive.

just makes him a self-centered one

Yep, Lelouch can be incredibly self-absorbed. I mean, he didn't even notices Clovis loved him! That says it all. *nods her head*
Still, I never denied he had some serious issues.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

For one, the Black Knights didn't think much of Britannians in general before Lelouch came along.
Also, if they had never any chance of success, they were killing people for nothing but the petty satisfaction of annoying Britannia, whereas Lelouch made them able to get actual results.

they kept fighting because if they gave up they would NEVER have a chance to be free
so long as you keep the fire going, you may one day be in a position for success
lelouch was only able to GET the actual results because the resistance movement kept fighting for a whole seven years before he started out
if they quite fighting before "zero" showed up he wouldnt be able to achieve any results, because he wouldnt have anyone to fight for him

Already listed reasons. He risked his life as easily as those of the Black Knights, and he was planning to do so even before he got his Geass.
Without it, he never had much of a chance to survive.

if he didnt believe in his chances of success
he wouldnt have bothered to fight
lelouch never fights battle he doesnt believe he can win

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

they kept fighting because if they gave up they would NEVER have a chance to be free
so long as you keep the fire going, you may one day be in a position for success
lelouch was only able to GET the actual results because the resistance movement kept fighting for a whole seven years before he started out
if they quite fighting before "zero" showed up he wouldnt be able to achieve any results, because he wouldnt have anyone to fight for him

They couldn't have known Zero would come along.
Yes, they are human, and humans hope, but hope doesn't make you moral. They were only acting moral from a purely consequentialist point of view.

if he didnt believe in his chances of success
he wouldnt have bothered to fight
lelouch never fights battle he doesnt believe he can win

If the only other option is not fighting at all, he does.
But I never said he didn't expect (or at least hope very strongly) to achieve something. He just never valued his life more than fighting for what he believes in.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

They couldn't have known Zero would come along.
Yes, they are human, and humans hope, but hope doesn't make you moral. They were only acting moral from a purely consequentialist point of view.

you keep fighting against your conquerer because the alternative is accepting your conquest and accept the fact that your people would be treated as second class human beings forever
suzaku chose the latter
the resistance movement refused to, and kept fighting

and they didnt wait around specifically for zero to come along (empires weaken or fall, no exceptions)
they just wouldnt give up the fight until one of two things happen
either they all get wiped out to the last man, or they drive britannia out
either way, they wouldnt accept a world where they and their loved ones and their children would have to live forever under the heel of an empire who views them as monkeys

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but thats not the same as planning to die
if he dies, he loses
if he loses, then he cant achieve what he wants

But it's still accepting death as a possibility, or even consequence, of his actions. Same as any soldier does. There's a difference between fighting to die (which Suzaku is almost the patron saint of) and fighting with the knowledge that you may die. Virtually no one does the former. Plenty of people do the latter. It's called "acceptable risk."

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

nogi's original point was that lelouch planned to die to make the world a better place for nunnaly

What? I repeatedly stated I meant it in the way morbosfist understood it.
Just because you would die for something doesn't mean it's what you're aiming for.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

What? I repeatedly stated I meant it in the way morbosfist understood it.
Just because you would die for something doesn't mean it's what you're aiming for.

then i have been mistaken for about ten posts then
what about my other post ?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

then i have been mistaken for about ten posts then

rofl. xD
The power of the internet.

Edit:
The other part of the post would lead me to repeat what I already said. Just because the Japanese couldn't accept something doesn't mean they were moral in fighting against it when they didn't really believe they could succeed. They were being human, not moral.

[bladeofdarkness]

and the other stuff ?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and the other stuff ?

See the edit. I think that sums it up.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

rofl. xD
The other part of the post would lead me to repeat what I already said. Just because the Japanese couldn't accept something doesn't mean they were moral in fighting against it when they didn't really believe they could succeed. They were being human, not moral.

is accepting second class human treatment forever a moral thing to do ?
the britannians were the wrong ones for conquering them when they had no right to do so save for "they felt like it and had the power to pull it off"
and the japanese were right to oppose this occupation (a year or a decade or a hundred years might pass, but evetually they could have won)
what exactly would be moral in accepting it

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

is accepting second class human treatment forever a moral thing to do ?

Is accepting that your sister will be seen as something to trampled over the right thing to do? At least Lelouch believed he could achieve something, and was also thinking of the world in general, even if it wasn't his main reason.
If I'm being oppressed and kill people because of it, while knowing it probably won't help, then I don't consider myself moral, but human.

the britannians were the wrong ones for conquering them when they had no right to do so save for "they felt like it and had the power to pull it off"
and the japanese were right to oppose this occupation (a year or a decade or a hundred years might pass, but evetually they could have won)
what exactly would be moral in accepting it

Not all Japanese openly opposed Britannia, and yet they all had to suffer because some decided to rebel.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Is accepting that your sister will be seen as something to trampled over the right thing to do? At least Lelouch believed he could achieve something, and was also thinking of the world in general, even if it wasn't his main reason.
If I'm being oppressed and kill people because of it, while knowing it probably won't help, then I don't consider myself moral, but human.

was lelouch's sister being trampled ?
far as i can recall she was living with him in ashford and was, as she herself said, perfectly happy just being with him.
and surrendering to an occupation that treats your people as less then human is even LESS moral then keeping up the fight
because it means that your children and your children's children would be treated the same way (being RAISED to believe that this is their place)
so long as the fire doesnt die down, there is still hope for future generations

Not all Japanese opposed Britannia, and yet they all had to suffer because some decided to rebel.

all suffered under britannian rule regardless
the rebels sought to change that
from a moral standpoint, they were right against such oppression

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

was lelouch's sister being trampled ?
far as i can recall she was living with him in ashford and was, as she herself said, perfectly happy just being with him.

He feared Ashford might not support them forever, and they would have had to rely on the goodness of other people in a system that had no place for the weak.
Maybe Nunally would have been happy, but back then, she spent her time clinging to Lelouch and relying on him, while he worried about the future. Lelouch is damaged, and he came to a lot of false conclusions, but I can easily see where he's coming from.

and surrendering to an occupation that treats your people as less then human is even LESS moral then keeping up the fight
because it means that your children and your children's children would be treated the same way (being RAISED to believe that this is their place)
so long as the fire doesnt die down, there is still hope for future generations

And so you sacrifice the children of other people, even though you think it's probably pointless?
That might be understandable, but not moral, except maybe if you believe in ethical egoism.

all suffered under britannian rule regardless
the rebels sought to change that
from a moral standpoint, they were right against such oppression

So was Lelouch.
He sacrificed people, and so did they.
The difference is that Lelouch was not as directly involved and, at the same time, managed to achieve something.

[morbosfist]

Prisoners of war are expected to try to escape. It's their captor's own fault if they can't control them. But by the same token, if repeated attempts (successful or not), encourage harsher treatment, then is it right to escape?

On the subject of a whole nation, it would be much the same situation on a grander scale. Is it right to fight for freedom when the oppressing country can and will make life for everyone else much worse just to prove a point? Though when I think about it I can't completely tie Suzaku's reasoning into that. Britannia subjugated Japan, yet disobeying their law now that it's in place is wrong? Comes out as just hypocritical justification. His beef about getting civilians hurt at least falls in line with the above thinking.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

The BKs only kicked ass when they had Lelouch providing them strats, when he wasn't around they flopped.

The reason for the Black Knight's failures without Lelouch was due to incompetent leaders such as Ougi, and Todoh, with Xingke filling in for Lelouch, the patheticness of Britannia's military was exposed. If Lelouch had been fighting an incompetent military commander the difference in abilities would have evened out, but Xingke was Lelouch's equal, and so the Black Knights easily crushed Britannia.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

The reason for the Black Knight's failures without Lelouch was due to incompetent leaders such as Ougi, and Todoh, with Xingke filling in for Lelouch, the patheticness of Britannia's military was exposed. If Lelouch had been fighting an incompetent military commander the difference in abilities would have evened out, but Xingke was Lelouch's equal, and so the Black Knights easily crushed Britannia.

I don't recall Xingke doing a whole lot. During the second battle of Tokyo Bismark was able to halt the BKs and almost took out Xinke in 1vs1 combat. Every Britannian pilot is a knight, a professional soldier with extensive training. The Black Knights are formed primarily of terrorists and resistance fighters. In a conventional battle it was shown that the BKs were no match for Britannia. Lelouch makes up for that difference in strength by deploying underhanded tactics such as blowing up the foundations along the defensive line, or causing a landslide, etc etc.

In the first battle of tokyo Guilford and the Glaston Knights stopped the BK dead on their tracks and crushed the Black Rebellion. Cornelia also proved to be a capable commander as she crushed the fierce Yamato's cell with just a few units.

Britannia might have been pathetic when lead by inept people like Clovis and Calares, but under Schneizel, Bismark, Cornelia, Guilford etc they aren't.

[bladeofdarkness]

in the last battle the black knights were tearing lelouch's forces apart
he only beat them back because they didnt know he cares so little for the lives of his own soldiers that he would kill them by the hundreds in a trick ment to take out the black knights (he wipes out his entire front line and ground forces without a care)

in terms of army strength, the black knights were tearting britannia apart in the last battle
and yet, under lelouch's leadership, they were struggling in every battle
meanwhile britannia went from being a powerful army, to being the sort of jobbers that the black knights tear apart

so i guess the problem was that lelouch sucks as a commander

[morbosfist]

More that Schenizel is better at it and his forces were always fighting at a disadvantage before.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

More that Schenizel is better at it and his forces were always fighting at a disadvantage before.

Schenizel didnt do all that much
all he did was tell them "go" at the right time
after that, xing-ke took command of the battle

and i was mostly kidding about lelouch being a sucky commander