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Old 2020-07-01, 00:55   Link #1
Blueknight78
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the growing influence influence of "overseas" companies over japan anime/manga/games

i've seen nowadays many peoples both western and japaneses talking about the "the growing influence of forgeins over anime/manga/games industry.

Now a days speciall the the advent of the covid we have the growing market of "streaming" and many plataforms are sign more and more contracts to product animes for then, you have tensent in china, you have netflix, hulo, crunchroll and others trying to get they pieces of "this market" and while it's making the "money flow high to japan making the local market being less and less the source of money for exemple kaguia sama is a huge sucess in china, it's easy the top serie streaming, even over live actions, its a huge sucess and for what i find both first and second season were sponsored by chinese companies, the first one was less but after the huge sucess in the first the chinese stream literally give all the money for the second,the current huge source of incomes for otaku industry from japan is comming direct from china, they are consuming really a lot of nl, mangas and animes, making again now a days most of the incoming coming from this market, the same goes for some animes series for netflix and funimation and others, the age of "bd and dvd sales and sucess in japan "only matters" is ending as sales for dvds and bd in general are getting "decreases" in number because of the sucess of stream.

While it can look amazing for the industry because "more money means" more material" it's not totally true or not "perfect as it's looks, because in the same way its "bringing "more money" it's also is bringing "more censorship, more outside influence and those companies are getting "voices" in what is to "do or not" in the industry and while overal the anime/manga/games games "japanese concil" (don't remember the proper name but is a official group to watch over this market), still strong composed for japaneses and still have the 'loud voice" slowly those "companies" are starting to have a "seat" about that concil and start to be more "vocal" and with that we start to see the "censorship" over anime/manga/novels/games from japan and while most of the times that censorship is "outside" japan and inside japan thing are "overal normal" but now it's also start to affect japanese market inside and many authors/artists are start to worry over it
https://www.crunchyroll.com/pt-br/an...ese-government

we already see many "japaneses games being censored many "animes episodes or being "dropped" or censored for being controversy
https://nicchiban.nichegamer.com/202...-from-netflix/

also we have the famous netflix "adaptations" specially in live actions the last one being the cowboy bebop
https://lrmonline.com/news/cowboy-be...-are-outraged/
for not just use "western and in special USA we also have exemple from china were a "my hero academy game was canceled due to the villian name controversy

another exemple would be the producer of the famous senran kagure game series:
https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2019...ing_censorship

we also had some "japanese games" from japaneses companies which got censored too not only in western but also in japan, like FF7, tiffa outfit changed to match "today western standarts"(means USA puritans), we also have both resident evil 2 and 3 remake which had they female characters "outfits" changed and even worst in the 3 because they promised which anyone buying the "special edition" would the get "original outfit" just to find out which it not was really the "original" but a changed version were they go from the "skirt to a short".

we also had the famous controversy of DMC "beam of light" covering the naked female characters in "USA" version of playstation.

even looking more in the past you can see which a great company like square enix started to "change" some of they games to match more "western" taste and also cover more for the censorship.

Even the sony itself, overtimes is looking more like you don't have just a "unique sony company" you have 2 companies called "sony" one from western and the other from japan and they are not anymore in unison or working toghether, you can see overtime which sony form USA is growing more independant and also having more influence even over japan sony, specially when they started they censorships laws and started to ban a lot of games due the "controversy.

Another clear controversy we have those days from sony was "spoiler alert a "scene of sex" from the last of us 2, were instead of "censor it as they did with so many games they give a pass in the western version, only japan version get a censorship, but every other japanese game is getting censored, we get a recent japanese game which had to have a heavy censor to be released in playstation, removing some spice scenes and changing others which not only angered "the fans" but the game staff themselfs.

Before some peoples come with the famoous "pervs diservers" and all bla bla bla, we are talking about "diferent cultures" and different vision and a little about "respect' i'm not saying which you can't agree with the censorship but is important to look to the "other side too" not just get you pichfork and start the witch hunter.

We are talking about how we have a culture being "heavy censored and attacked by other just because they feel which "they are the only ones "right".

not only those exemples but also we have many exemples of draw artists and mangakas which are being attacked not only "ships wars" but clear censorship, specially for peoples which like to do spice stuff and the worst which they are even "womans" which do love to draw hot womans and males but get attacked because of that because you "cant objectific and be sexist and all bla bla bla.

you also have the famou female draw artist sakamichan which is famous for draw pin up "characters (hot female and sometimes male characters), she really love's it but already got attacked and "tried to be canceled multiple times, one of then was when she a pin up "adult version or nezuko another was when she draw a "chub character but "peoples"(the same old group) deem's it not "chuub" enough from places like twitter and many "activist jornalist from places like polygon and kotaku or ign which are normally the places were the censorship begins with then post some "key articles with "key" words to start flaming peoples and start the twitter's wars.

Another exemple would be pokemon charcters, we had some peoples "draw not' enough tan" characters and be called racist and bla bla bla, or another exemple when pokemon tried a official event in twitter asking for peoples draw favorite characters as they want (you could draw then as black, blue, white, asian, non asian and all) and while you have a lot of "diversity" characters when one guy tried to draw a "asian version of a tan character" the twitter come afte him, forcing the artist to close his account and give up in twitter in fear, the event was canceled.

now what you think about it, again is not just about "perv" and even if you agree with all that censorship, we are talking about "peoples forcing they own "culture" over others peoples culture".

and i gonna say and make clear at last for it's a big form of racism or "cultural apropriation, like when one of the kardeshian sisters tried to steal the "kimono" name for them.

what you toughts over it??

for me i gonna agree with what i head many peoples saying which while at "short term" it will burst the market" at long i means maybe 5 to 10 or more years the same sort of crap censorship we see in USA or china being full applied in japan and no more "freedom of express and all the stuffs" will be regulamented by or china or usa or boh.

srry for the big wall of texts but i tried to make it clear as possible with enough stuff to show which is not just "some buzzwords and nothing is happening as some peoples like to call and being just "conspirations" or a pervert person in fear of loose your waifus.
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Last edited by Blueknight78; 2020-07-01 at 11:34.
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Old 2020-07-01, 06:53   Link #2
Cosmic Eagle
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Before you PM someone, could you ensure that it's properly formatted and readable instead of being near incoherent with a smarter-than-you attitude? Thanks



Also.....Nuance. Get some. The fact Japanese creators are already doubling down shows what you are worried about isn't going to occur any time soon. And catering to target markets is hardly the same thing as bending over to their standards on your home turf. Do you even know how deeply rooted all these things are? Why do you even assume Japan's context is comparable to the West? Further, your LOU2 example makes no sense at all given the Western version is uncensored and is clearly an issue of Japanese media laws


The best way to deal with cultural imperialism isn't to start a culture war or to go head to head with the invading force. It's to integrate it.....Which Japan has an exmplary track record of throughout it's history, so your thread with its implications that this is some major threat to be countered, is kind of ironic.
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Old 2020-07-01, 12:09   Link #3
Blueknight78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Also.....Nuance. Get some. The fact Japanese creators are already doubling down shows what you are worried about isn't going to occur any time soon.
due to limit in the tittle i could not put the proper word "slowly" which is what is happening, slowly over time you are seeying the industry getting more and more influenced by then and while for now "anime/manga/LN" are somehow safe and the only censorship is happening outside the game market already start to suffering by having games not only "censored outside japan but also inside, which show which is not just "it's never gonna happen here", this is why both authors and government are start to worry over it,
Quote:
And catering to target markets is hardly the same thing as bending over to their standards on your home turf.
Quote:
Do you even know how deeply rooted all these things are? Why do you even assume Japan's context is comparable to the West?
yeah and is that why the peoples are worried about and already start to "fight back as you told" but as the problem of the "decrease population keep happening" and the outside market get more and more strong and more influent it could get to a point were the government and industry itself(by industry i don't means the authors creators themselfs but publisher and the others places were the authors place they works) would start to feel to overwhelmed and scared to go "against" and eventually give up in fear of "death(i means loosing money) Further, your LOU2 example makes no sense at all given the Western version is uncensored and is clearly an issue of Japanese media laws[/quote]
the exemple was to show how "sony USA and sony japan, are looking more and more as two totally independent companies, no more USA sony being just a branch of japan and to show they hypocresy about "censoring japaneses games but giving a "pass, and to be no offenses here, to the game because, the character in the scene is a "diversity" western characters" then it's ok don't censor(again i'm no trying to enter in the ideology side but to highlight a exemple of how they are threating diferent the situations) and it's just a exemple among the others showing how things are "changing overtime.

Quote:
The best way to deal with cultural imperialism isn't to start a culture war or to go head to head with the invading force. It's to integrate it.....Which Japan has an exmplary track record of throughout it's history, so your thread with its implications that this is some major threat to be countered, is kind of ironic.
I honestly hope you are right there and japan can proper fight and keep themselfs on that because it's not so easy.

For exemple as we see, china now is having a really huge influence over western in specially USA, movies and game industry, we have many times companies USA companies bend over china and censoring stuffs not only china (same pattern as japan) but also inside, we had the "hong kong blizzard, we have for exemple to be more extreme and show some "racism" the star wars exemple were "diversity" characters could end being "replaced" or "changed color" inside china to catter they cenship in animations and for exemple in the star wars china poster were the black characters image was huge scaled down in size to be almost "hidden" and only highlight the characters china want.

All that because the "money power" china have and overtime many movies sucess are coming more "from chinese" market than others places, like a movie can even flop hard in usa or others places but if its a huge sucess in china it would be enough to not only make the movie pay for itself but get even money enough to have a second filme if wanted, for exemple we had warcraft movie, it flopped hard in usa and made "mediocre", money in others places but in china was a hit making the movie pay for itself and even get "extra" cash, we don't get sequel" because the studio stil got disapointed for not being a sucess all over the world but the film talking about "box office" was a sucess in the end.


ok let me clear when i say "china" i'm not talking about the "overal peoples" but talking about the "government" and they strong censorship and dictatorship, i know which even with all the "brainwash" from the govenment we have among the average peoples not this sort of stuffs and they are much victims as anyone under this sort of "peoples in power".

Again this is not something gonna happens soon, like in next week, month, or year, but something would ending happening after some years as the "banhammer" keep hitting, remember the old say(don't know if every country have it)
"soft water in hard stone beats until it punctures"

for exemple in the onu each year at last 2 times per year the UK representanting keep trying to force japan to censor the animes, ofcourse the japanese represenation just give the mind finger and ignore him, but just wait until a right time to come and maybe that "japanese person is someone aligned with the censorship", you already have some japaneses being influencied by western, for exemple you already have few japaneses females aligned with the "western feminism", then just get the right person in power", get someone supported or which support the western and maybe in future "chinese censorship, if they keep geting more and more in control of the market, an put that person in power like the new prime minister and you can get moves being made toward that.

ok i don't want to sound like some crazy theory conspirator" or something like that but we do have and see how the world is being affected by strong censorship and we have many countries were the "freedom" or is already a joke or dream or start to become because of too much ideology in power ( and to be clear it go for both sides, just in cases peoples come and say you are A or B and bla bla bla), while i don't like anarch and we must have some "limits" this don't give to anyone power to censor whatever they want because of ideologies without a proper debate and we get a sort of agreement and the most important the "peoples" of the place are fine with and not just forced because a "small group"(and by small i means activists be left or right which thing they are representing everyone from the group they are trying to "present themselfs" and everyone must obey) feel itself so special which we must catter.]

now a days is become really hard to express without have to give "context to everything".
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Old 2020-07-01, 19:44   Link #4
serenade_beta
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Hmm, I don't personally see it.

For instance, Sony is censoring Japanese video games... So Japanese video game creators go to the Switch and PC.
And the developers that for some reason still want to develop on the PS will just have to censor their stuff.

As for anime, I'm not too sure. I can't recall the last Netflix anime I've seen, which shows that they either make extremely mediocre anime or Netflix doesn't accidentally mess up and jump into the press in a bad light.

Overall, as far as anime goes, the West probably does not have much influence as much as China. But then again, unless you bring politics into your anime (or make hints on it), they usually don't care too much about what you make.
And they treat creators better than Japan itself, so... Yeah.

Also, I'm not too sure censoring counts as influence in the first place though.
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Old 2020-07-01, 23:17   Link #5
Blueknight78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Hmm, I don't personally see it.

For instance, Sony is censoring Japanese video games... So Japanese video game creators go to the Switch and PC.
And the developers that for some reason still want to develop on the PS will just have to censor their stuff.

As for anime, I'm not too sure. I can't recall the last Netflix anime I've seen, which shows that they either make extremely mediocre anime or Netflix doesn't accidentally mess up and jump into the press in a bad light.

Overall, as far as anime goes, the West probably does not have much influence as much as China. But then again, unless you bring politics into your anime (or make hints on it), they usually don't care too much about what you make.
And they treat creators better than Japan itself, so... Yeah.

Also, I'm not too sure censoring counts as influence in the first place though.
censor count because for exemple for game like a hentai or ecchi game, "delete or remove scenes" is nost just "go delete", you also have to "rewrite codes, to make the game don't use the removed stuffs or when you must censor you must make "again the scene or model" or make a "censored version" in some more extreme cases could means basically make 2 games.

for anime for exemple it could means "less ecchi" animes or mangas being published due to the censorship and only animes allowed by the streams airing and as the "censorship rise and the "western hate over ecchi" it would means the end of ecchi, also lolis and many others things, basically that would means the end of series like to love ru, fairy tail and many other, the only reason many of the streams still do "ecchi" stuffs is because they still popular overal but are constly heavy criticized by activists and in many cases they are naturaly censored when comes to the western even more the "censor" japan already do and in some very extreme cases like the ishuka reviews we could have they just being full banned.

it would lead to many authors stop of write mangas because they not gonna keep writing things they "dont like just to adapte" japaneses don't have the same mindset as americans to "give up" in what they like.

this is one of the reasons both govern and artists are concerned about the external influence, while chinese influence is much less problematic, because it's just a matter of "no critic the govern or peoles western we have a lot of activist moviments which keep using any "excuse" to stop the "character sexualization and bla bla bla, what we already know, this is why they made that conference, they are trying to make sure keep the "creative freedom" or in the last/worst case scenario" you gonna have a sort of "museum" to store those stuffs for japaneses to remember of it.

well we are talking about the worst case scene here and it is something a "looooong term, not short, like i told something something like 5 to 10 years at minimum, ofcourse with the "advent of internet and how social media is get strong and strong overtime and western censorship grown into that plataforms, things could get "fast" or slow, what is matter have the "right push", like the actually case of gorge floyd case which now become a crazy thing and started to make the need of reform the police move on fast.

What you would need is someone see the right chance to "blame"/bash hate so hard and have the "right support" and you could see japan govern be overly forced to take actions and start to censor, ofcourse again this is a "worst case scene" but still a possibility.

edit: let me put in a better way: with the growing of internet and stream and internet less and less open tv or cable are being relevant as the while world, which means the channels are getting "less and less attention and sponsor overtime, which means they have "less money to sponsor "animes", this was something which was starting to happening before the stream too, we had a decrease in animes being "produced" over the time which thanks to the start in netflix then later in crunchroll it's started to get back traction and have more animes being produced again also thanks to china, but the price of it is which those peoples are the ones "choosing" the material to be animated, which at long term would be a problem because we could get a point were all the animes excluding "some very specific cases" would only be sponsored by "outside companies and no more channels or others japaneses national companies would afford to produce anymore without the help of the outside companies, then with all that power in hands that outside companies influenced by the cultural war and SJW would start to only want to have "family friendly animes" and material, cutting any ecchi or even "more violent gore series" like what is happening in today USA animation were basically most of the animais are a lot "childshi with no blood no sex, excluding some "bd exclusive stuffs like some dc series, but we could ending get a sort of cartoon network style of animation in japan or disney were only "family friend and too kids stuffs get a pass and many stuffs get lost or the worst making "china" being the "safe haven" for japan still have they "non family friend stuffs" but also increasing the power of china over japan and anime industry, than later it could also start to affect manga and novel market" with the increase of outside sales and decrease of "home sales" due to japan "shrunk population issues", image the famous "domino effect" one thing affect the other over time until you have or "china" or usa/western having full control over the stuffs.

ok this is a lot crazy and conspiration theory but it can be in part a future with the globalization and how over time japan is becoming more and more dependant of external market and be forced to catter that market in order to survive.
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Old 2020-07-02, 05:30   Link #6
relentlessflame
 
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Honestly, you are being pretty paranoid. I would say there is zero risk that Western (or Chinese, etc.) influences are going to force all anime to be family-friendly.

"Ecchi" anime like you're talking about gets made in the first place because there's an audience for it -- it sells, and sells very well. So as long as there is still an audience interested in buying/consuming (which all signs suggest there is, both domestically and overseas), I don't see them stopping to make these types of shows, and I don't see them "neutering" them to the point that they lose their appeal. This doesn't stop them from also taking the money from China/U.S./etc. and creating other shows that appeal to the requests of the funders. Even if, for example, there came a time when they couldn't air some ecchi shows on the "popular" streaming platforms, there'd be another way to distribute it to the audience who wants it. (Consider Interspecies Reviewers that was deemed "too hot" for some Japanese TV and some global streaming networks like Funimation, but still got out there in other places, including some other official channels. Even ero-anime ("hentai") gets officially distributed, even though it's not on the "mainstream" channels.)

Obviously, I think creators in Japan are right to continue to push for freedom of expression, and caution against laws that are overly broad or focused so much on being conciliatory that they don't think through all the nuanced implications. This kind of vigilance and pushback is necessary to find the right balance for these kinds of laws. But I don't think nearly anything you see in TV anime is at risk of disappearing, even the "ecchi" stuff.

And anyway, for as much as America has this reputation for being all puritanical and overly afraid of sex, they consume (and create) an awful lot of porn. So some of these discussions have a bit more nuance than it might initially seem.
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Old 2020-07-02, 12:07   Link #7
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Honestly, you are being pretty paranoid. I would say there is zero risk that Western (or Chinese, etc.) influences are going to force all anime to be family-friendly.

"Ecchi" anime like you're talking about gets made in the first place because there's an audience for it -- it sells, and sells very well. So as long as there is still an audience interested in buying/consuming (which all signs suggest there is, both domestically and overseas), I don't see them stopping to make these types of shows, and I don't see them "neutering" them to the point that they lose their appeal. This doesn't stop them from also taking the money from China/U.S./etc. and creating other shows that appeal to the requests of the funders. Even if, for example, there came a time when they couldn't air some ecchi shows on the "popular" streaming platforms, there'd be another way to distribute it to the audience who wants it. (Consider Interspecies Reviewers that was deemed "too hot" for some Japanese TV and some global streaming networks like Funimation, but still got out there in other places, including some other official channels. Even ero-anime ("hentai") gets officially distributed, even though it's not on the "mainstream" channels.)

Obviously, I think creators in Japan are right to continue to push for freedom of expression, and caution against laws that are overly broad or focused so much on being conciliatory that they don't think through all the nuanced implications. This kind of vigilance and pushback is necessary to find the right balance for these kinds of laws. But I don't think nearly anything you see in TV anime is at risk of disappearing, even the "ecchi" stuff.

And anyway, for as much as America has this reputation for being all puritanical and overly afraid of sex, they consume (and create) an awful lot of porn. So some of these discussions have a bit more nuance than it might initially seem.
interesting your point, yeah maybe i'm being too paranoid and all but we still have to be caution over it.

And i liked you bring the Interspecies Reviewers, it also have some issues but after the fullanimation complained and find out about the "anime(and the proof which they were just random picking shows without knowing what they are picking that as really fun), but we saw what happened due to Interspecies Reviewers being a sort of exclusivity contract to air overseas after they "ban" it the other channels which was hulu if i'm not wrong had to stop too, ofcourse it don't prevented the serie to be watched "oversea" by "others means" but the good amount of money the production could get from those main streams was lost and i feel was what lighted up the "yellow light of caution in japan about how things are sensitive overseas, because now some of those channels will be more "cautions" about what they are going to pick.

About the puritans stuffs, well this is a "common" mask abroad the western or strong religious influenced countries, overal we act like "sex is evil" but in the end when you start to "sweep under the bed" we start to find many "porn" stuffs.

and i do feel it's a lot of hipocresy and unjistified because even if we enter in the "religous stuffs" in the past Christ never condemned prostitutes and accepted them all in his flock and not all of them stopped being prostitutes and abroad one of the oldest professions in the world is the most "hated condemned and while i can understood which not all on that have a good life(great in part of the hatred and prejudice), not all of then started because of a bad past or do hate what they do or feel forced to do it.

and while i do know which the issue is not that simple like that in usa, the puritanism), still something very strong and which usually ends up influencing other countries or in sort affecting and what i feel the "most problematic" stuff is the famous "sex" is bad for childrens (and by childrens i means teens from 17 to under) but violence is ok which happens a lot in USA and somehow i know which the issue specially nowadays is more because of activists specially feminists which keep using the "objetification" as weapon but it's only go when is about the "male gaze" a woman objectifying for herself is "empowing but if a man watch or ask her to do, is wrong is male gaze and bla bla bla, denying even womans which do like that to do because somehow they thing they can speak for all womans, let's be clear i'm not saying which don't exist crap things and peoples which do indeed objectifies women and by that i really means threat then as object and not peoples almost like slaves and in some cases as slaves and we must combat that but the point which sexualize and objectify are 2 different things any sexologist will say that but it's seens for activists and in part for puritans they see it as the samething and come with that "let's destroy porn" action.

also we have again religion which is very strong in USA and good ammount of that puritanim" come from that.

Well this is what i know ofcourse must have more stuff on that but it aways was big issue.
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Old 2020-07-02, 23:25   Link #8
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here some more info:
YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
source:
https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/...anga-will.aspx

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...t-anime-manga/

tencent is really pushing hard over japanese industry, i'm not talking specifically about "censoring" but it's really want to gain this market because they saw how crazy, anime/manga/games/ln sell in japan even in western and they want to have they share and control over it.
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Old 2020-07-03, 04:49   Link #9
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Nonsense. You're just not being paranoid, you're also ill-informed, and your sources reek of bullcrap. Just looking at that thumbnail is enough for me to tell that the owner of that video is a moron beyond help.

Nevermind that, what is actually happening is the complete opposite of what you're implying. The correct title should be The growing influence of Japanese culture overseas.

I say you should take a break, because I can tell the paranoia is really getting over your head. This thread is pure clickbait IMO.
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Old 2020-07-03, 23:13   Link #10
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
and while i do know which the issue is not that simple like that in usa, the puritanism), still something very strong and which usually ends up influencing other countries or in sort affecting and what i feel the "most problematic" stuff is the famous "sex" is bad for childrens (and by childrens i means teens from 17 to under) but violence is ok which happens a lot in USA and somehow i know which the issue specially nowadays is more because of activists specially feminists which keep using the "objetification" as weapon but it's only go when is about the "male gaze" a woman objectifying for herself is "empowing but if a man watch or ask her to do, is wrong is male gaze and bla bla bla, denying even womans which do like that to do because somehow they thing they can speak for all womans, let's be clear i'm not saying which don't exist crap things and peoples which do indeed objectifies women and by that i really means threat then as object and not peoples almost like slaves and in some cases as slaves and we must combat that but the point which sexualize and objectify are 2 different things any sexologist will say that but it's seens for activists and in part for puritans they see it as the samething and come with that "let's destroy porn" action.
Honestly, there's a sliver of a point in here, but you've mixed it up with a lot of paranoia and fear-based talking points.

I do think the U.S., as a general cultural influence worldwide, has a bit of a double standard about violence vs. sex, and I think most would agree with this. There's more concern over a single nipple on live TV than any amount of gratuitous violence, and a lot of other cultures find that a bit odd. The U.S. has used trade treaties and other means to try to push their values on other parts of world, and there has been some concern in Japan and elsewhere of the risk this may pose to freedom of expression. To some degree, push back about this is a normal part of the process of figuring out where to draw the line. So far I think most can agree.

But at the same time, I think you need to take a bit more time to think critically about some of the issues you're conflating. Feminism is rarely directly related to puritanism, and the goal of conversations about objectification, male gaze, empowerment, etc. is not usually at all about banning everything related to sex. (Maybe in some of the most extreme circles, but that's hardly a mainstream view.) I think you've lumped everything together as if it's all part of one giant conspiracy to tear everything down, but it's a lot more nuanced and complicated than that. This kind of approach furthers a militant "us vs. them" attitude that just divides people rather than focusing on common ground where most can agree -- and there's already enough divisiveness in the world to deal with, IMO. (Not commenting specifically on the video you linked, but it is true that a lot of platforms like Youtube are driven by clickbait/outrage clicks, so they tend to overstate and exaggerate everything to generate controversy/views.)

In the end, no credible force is actually coming to destroy all anime and turn it all into kid-friendly pablum; even if there were a small portion of people who think that way, it's not going to happen. There are far too many adults around the world who like anime the way it is and they're the ones able to spend money on it. As Knighto said above, this can be seen as a sign of Japan's growing cultural influence, so an opportunity more than a threat. Obviously anime is going to continue to evolve with the market, just as it always has, and as the market expands it'll introduce new kinds of stories that we didn't see as much of before. But honestly that's always been the case. Back in the early 2000s when North American anime companies were investing a lot in co-productions, the net effect was mostly of a rising tide lifting all boats and an increase in the overall amount of productions -- as we're seeing today. The problem there -- and the continued risk -- is more about the "bubble bursting," but the increased diversification of revenue streams may help reduce that risk.

Anyway, it'll be okay. Overseas companies are investing in anime not to change it but to make money. Just look at the most popular WNs/LNs these days and it's pretty clear that, even in this day and age, sex sells. Ecchi anime isn't going anywhere.
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Old 2020-07-04, 02:04   Link #11
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Honestly, there's a sliver of a point in here, but you've mixed it up with a lot of paranoia and fear-based talking points.

I do think the U.S., as a general cultural influence worldwide, has a bit of a double standard about violence vs. sex, and I think most would agree with this. There's more concern over a single nipple on live TV than any amount of gratuitous violence, and a lot of other cultures find that a bit odd. The U.S. has used trade treaties and other means to try to push their values on other parts of world, and there has been some concern in Japan and elsewhere of the risk this may pose to freedom of expression. To some degree, push back about this is a normal part of the process of figuring out where to draw the line. So far I think most can agree.

But at the same time, I think you need to take a bit more time to think critically about some of the issues you're conflating. Feminism is rarely directly related to puritanism, and the goal of conversations about objectification, male gaze, empowerment, etc. is not usually at all about banning everything related to sex. (Maybe in some of the most extreme circles, but that's hardly a mainstream view.) I think you've lumped everything together as if it's all part of one giant conspiracy to tear everything down, but it's a lot more nuanced and complicated than that. This kind of approach furthers a militant "us vs. them" attitude that just divides people rather than focusing on common ground where most can agree -- and there's already enough divisiveness in the world to deal with, IMO. (Not commenting specifically on the video you linked, but it is true that a lot of platforms like Youtube are driven by clickbait/outrage clicks, so they tend to overstate and exaggerate everything to generate controversy/views.)

In the end, no credible force is actually coming to destroy all anime and turn it all into kid-friendly pablum; even if there were a small portion of people who think that way, it's not going to happen. There are far too many adults around the world who like anime the way it is and they're the ones able to spend money on it. As Knighto said above, this can be seen as a sign of Japan's growing cultural influence, so an opportunity more than a threat. Obviously anime is going to continue to evolve with the market, just as it always has, and as the market expands it'll introduce new kinds of stories that we didn't see as much of before. But honestly that's always been the case. Back in the early 2000s when North American anime companies were investing a lot in co-productions, the net effect was mostly of a rising tide lifting all boats and an increase in the overall amount of productions -- as we're seeing today. The problem there -- and the continued risk -- is more about the "bubble bursting," but the increased diversification of revenue streams may help reduce that risk.

Anyway, it'll be okay. Overseas companies are investing in anime not to change it but to make money. Just look at the most popular WNs/LNs these days and it's pretty clear that, even in this day and age, sex sells. Ecchi anime isn't going anywhere.
really interesting.

Well i'm not that about "conspirartion theory and all and i know which 'each issue" is they own issue, like racism is not the same as feminism you have diferent activists and diferent levels of activism, for exemple in the past i used to full support feminism but when i started to see "some extremists" feminists and they not getting "called" by "fellows feminists" it started to make me not support anymore the moviment because as any other "moviment they have big skulls" inside the closes which they don't try to deal to make more peoples support then and make "peoples hate them even "womans, the same goes for the BLM and others things this give me a really bad vib on all the moviments because at the end they are almost the same as the peoples they clams to fight against, then that is when comes to the anime/manga/ln.

while again the mangas/novels/animes are still fine and probably will keep fine for a long time, for exemple "game" is not "fine" we see a lot of problems with games how the "strong censorship is being toward games, they are the ones getting the end of the stick here and i'm talking as someone which is working as indie and always try to keep informed about the game market and we see a strong push in western over games to be more "inclusive, diversity" have less "sex" and beauty, we have games like "mortal kombat 11 were almost all females ir don't look more hot as they used to look and neither have any more "revealing outifts as they used to have, many USA game studios are going for the politcally right and are tryiing to avoid have problem with the activists and if was just "western games" we could be fine but it's now also affecting asian games and in special japaneses, we still have companies like cd red project which are still "fighting against it", like they have to give a "huge justification" over ciberpunk to have nudity, i remember how the "internet and twitter started to earthquake over it the first time it was annouced about the nudty also the game was and still constantly suffering attack from activists media jornals, like the case of the bulk womand from a gang which the cyber punk creator of the game had to come and step up, because she was a white woman leader of a "gang of most black peoples", see and things like that see things like that annoys me a lot because peoples are loosing they 'freedom of expression" and can't just do "because they want", i also remember about nier automata when the creator was attacked because "objerfication but he was able to have a sucess after the famous " because i like it" being so sincere and direct which the complainers stopped and could not keep being annoying, but nowdays it don't work anymore".

Due to the "stay in home" and covid peoples emotions and mind are going out of control and we have some peoples exploiting it to get some "attention" and try to do they agenda which for me is scary and a lot.

then going baack to the video, i've just linked not because i agree 100% with what they say or don't know when they are "exaggerating", it's just normally they are the "first source" normally after that i start to search others sources and make sure what they are saying is true or at last have some "ground" and is not just fake news or click bait",. this is so which i had linked both sites and search a few more before link to make sure overal the info is true, not exactly what they are saying.


Currently my really big concern is being the game market, because i have my ideas about some games i want to try but at same time i'm getting scared about if i can do what i want or of i had to follow the "ckeck list", not just to sell the game but to not get turned in a monster because i not did, the same goes for japaneses games, we are going to a point were if i want to play a japanese game in ps5 or even maybe xbox i would not be able or maybe in a future not even for pc, because all the games will be made exclusive to "japan only" and the only way to get that games will be pay a very expensive cost due to having to buy "from japan" and as we see even in japan games are not being safe as anime/manga, they are the ones suffering more at the moment.


about the oversea companies i also can be ok and agree as long they don't censor the creativity of the authors, but my big fear would be more like if they start to use it "to steal, like a real cultural apropriation" like using popular characters from japaneses creators and "call then they propertie and use for they "local merchandises" and market and stuffs like that, which with companies like "tensent" could be something to happen, is more like they "taking full control" over all the properties.
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Old 2020-07-04, 02:50   Link #12
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Look! Japan will find a way. They always did. Are you really arguing that a vocal minority of rainbow-haired idiots is going to push Japanese around? When Japan's main target IS their domestic market that keep buying gunpla, waifu pillows, etc?

The worst we are going to see is on the localization and translation side in North America. On the French side, I have yet to see butchering on the level of Funimation's Maid Dragon or US dub of Prison School, we have been so traumatized by the worst of Club Dorothée, like Fist of the North Star gagdub, that now french localizers knows they are under the watching of fans who will NOT forgive what they perceive to be a deviation or disrespect of the original work.
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Old 2020-07-04, 04:57   Link #13
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'xcuse me for butting in, but
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
In the end, no credible force is actually coming to destroy all anime and turn it all into kid-friendly pablum
The Tokyo Olympics have been such a force, motivating politicians to exert pressure on the industry for many years now, even leading to the adjustment of the law to stifle creators. That's why it would be very delicious for the Olympics to get completely cancelled.
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Old 2020-07-04, 20:32   Link #14
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'xcuse me for butting in, but


The Tokyo Olympics have been such a force, motivating politicians to exert pressure on the industry for many years now, even leading to the adjustment of the law to stifle creators. That's why it would be very delicious for the Olympics to get completely cancelled.
I agree there's a concern here, but at the same time the issue is more nuanced than that. The primary issue the politicians have been concerned about is the visibility and accessibility of content that would be considered sexually explicit, not necessarily its very existence. But at the same time, the wording of some of the proposed regulation is, as often the case, overly broad and subject to interpretation. The fear is that this broadly-worded regulation my cause a chilling effect. This is why the discussion is happening, and that's what I was alluding to earlier in that post.

But this is why I used the term "credible" -- you're applying a sort of doomsday/worst-case-scenario to this that isn't actually what any of the interests involved intend. It's true that poorly-worded legislation could be misused by those with that sort of intention, and that's why the healthy push back is happening, but I don't think anyone actually believes that will be the result -- there's too much money to be made. Artistic and commercial forces (Kadokawa, etc.) that benefit from the status quo are pushing back to avoid the doomsday scenario and achieve legislative compromise, as well they should. But whether the Olympics happen in 2021 or not, adult and "ecchi" content is still going to exist. The conditions under which it's packaged and sold in physical stores in Japan, though, may change. (The degree to which this matters now is also still changing, as even book sales move increasingly online.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
while again the mangas/novels/animes are still fine and probably will keep fine for a long time, for exemple "game" is not "fine" we see a lot of problems with games how the "strong censorship is being toward games, they are the ones getting the end of the stick here and i'm talking as someone which is working as indie and always try to keep informed about the game market and we see a strong push in western over games to be more "inclusive, diversity" have less "sex" and beauty, we have games like "mortal kombat 11 were almost all females ir don't look more hot as they used to look and neither have any more "revealing outifts as they used to have, many USA game studios are going for the politcally right and are tryiing to avoid have problem with the activists and if was just "western games" we could be fine but it's now also affecting asian games and in special japaneses, we still have companies like cd red project which are still "fighting against it", like they have to give a "huge justification" over ciberpunk to have nudity, i remember how the "internet and twitter started to earthquake over it the first time it was annouced about the nudty also the game was and still constantly suffering attack from activists media jornals, like the case of the bulk womand from a gang which the cyber punk creator of the game had to come and step up, because she was a white woman leader of a "gang of most black peoples", see and things like that see things like that annoys me a lot because peoples are loosing they 'freedom of expression" and can't just do "because they want", i also remember about nier automata when the creator was attacked because "objerfication but he was able to have a sucess after the famous " because i like it" being so sincere and direct which the complainers stopped and could not keep being annoying, but nowdays it don't work anymore".
Again, I think you've mixed a whole lot of different issues together, which has the effect of framing it as though it were a "coordinated attack," but there are a lot of different things going on.

One issue is about gatekeepers. When game developers are dependent upon companies like Sony and Valve (Steam) (or Apple, Google, whoever) as the primary way to reach customers, they become subject to whatever rules/restrictions those companies decide to implement for whatever reason. Obviously on the one hand, the publishers too have the freedom to choose what they do and don't want to sell on their marketplace. But it's safe to say that if developers create games that run afoul of the policies of both Sony (PS4) and Steam (PC), they're looking at a huge loss of sales potential. In a lot of cases, these companies implement policies that go beyond what they are legally required to do. And furthermore, these companies are not always clear or consistent in the application of these policies, so developers aren't even always sure what is and isn't allowed. (They'll look at one game already published on the platform and assume that's acceptable, but when they go to submit their own game they'll get a different reviewer who deems it unacceptable, and sometimes won't even explain why.)

Of course, at the same time, there are other forces at play. For example, a lot of the games that have to get "censored" to appear on PS4 can appear uncensored on Switch, since Nintendo's policies are not as overbearing (perhaps ironically for a company known for family-friendly fare). And on the PC side, there are certainly other ways to get games that don't require you to go through Steam (although right now none are nearly as popular/mainstream). Getting too over-dependent on any one company as your primary distribution vehicle is a risk, so I think that's why many game developers are pushing for a multi-platform/multi-storefront strategy. We'll see how things continue to play out. On Sony's end, I suspect their decision is primarily about cost-savings since they centralized their game review process and applied a sort of "lowest-common denominator" approach. But if it goes too far, they'll get customer push back, and they may already be starting to see that to some degree, and it risks to embolden their competition. I think it's good that people are keeping up the pressure.

Then the second issue you're bringing up is about moves towards diversity and inclusiveness in games. I honestly don't think most developers do this to "avoid problems with activists" actually; I think many do this, ultimately, because they are trying to expand the size of their audience to increase their profits. I guess I don't really fear this all that much because it's not a zero-sum game. There will always be games that try to market to the "horny teenage boy" demographic (just like shounen harem romantic comedies in the manga world), but there can also be games that try to broaden/diversify/vary their reach. I'm also not really worried about perceived "attacks" from "activist media journalists" as long as it's just constructive criticism -- the companies/leaders making these decisions are adults who can handle being challenged by other viewpoints and defend their decisions. (Of course it if were *actual* attacks, that's a totally different story, and that's never okay whatever the issue is.) The realistic goal of all these kinds of discussions (again, at least among those who are having them in good faith) is not to say that these kinds of games cannot exist, it's that if they are *all* that exist (or the overwhelming majority) they are limiting the reach and potential audience for video games by alienating many potential customers. I'm not worried that we'll go from a world where "all games were targeted to my interests" to one where "no games are targeted to my interests" -- not as long as there's money to be made, and there definitely is. It's not like there are only two options here -- we'll end up somewhere in the middle.


So anyway... I think it's possible to take a holistic look at all that's going on, admit that there are indeed problems and concerns that need to be addressed, but without taking things to such an extreme. Pendulums have a way of swinging to extremes in their search for equilibrium. We should be vigilant in defending freedom of expression, yes, but if we go too far in demonizing other views or casting them in the most extreme light possible, we end up looking like the unreasonable ones. The most important thing, it seems to me, is to remain part of the conversation, and that means not falling into the trap of factions and extremist dogma (as certain websites and Youtube channels love to perpetuate), but trying to understand and arrive at a middle ground.
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Old 2020-07-05, 05:46   Link #15
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you're applying a sort of doomsday/worst-case-scenario to this that isn't actually what any of the interests involved intend.
For me, the doomsday had already begun, as I'm a fan of loli anime and manga who were hit worst by all of this. It used to be all harem shows had a token loli in them. Not so much anymore. The mangaka of Mujaki no Rakuen also faced a lot of pressure, as he told fans in a postscript to one of his chapters around 2014.

At least Monogatari series didn't succumb to this chilling effect. And neither did Tsugumomo. It also has gotten a lot better since 2013, when Tokyo was selected, but it shows how easily the industry folds under pressure. The whole Olympics may be over soon, but there can always come the next thing.
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Old 2020-07-05, 12:26   Link #16
Blueknight78
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[QUOTE=relentlessflame;6427422]
Again, I think you've mixed a whole lot of different issues together, which has the effect of framing it as though it were a "coordinated attack," but there are a lot of different things going on.

One issue is about gatekeepers. When game developers are dependent upon companies like Sony and Valve (Steam) (or Apple, Google, whoever) as the primary way to reach customers, they become subject to whatever rules/restrictions those companies decide to implement for whatever reason. Obviously on the one hand, the publishers too have the freedom to choose what they do and don't want to sell on their marketplace. But it's safe to say that if developers create games that run afoul of the policies of both Sony (PS4) and Steam (PC), they're looking at a huge loss of sales potential. In a lot of cases, these companies implement policies that go beyond what they are legally required to do. And furthermore, these companies are not always clear or consistent in the application of these policies, so developers aren't even always sure what is and isn't allowed. (They'll look at one game already published on the platform and assume that's acceptable, but when they go to submit their own game they'll get a different reviewer who deems it unacceptable, and sometimes won't even explain why.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Of course, at the same time, there are other forces at play. For example, a lot of the games that have to get "censored" to appear on PS4 can appear uncensored on Switch, since Nintendo's policies are not as overbearing (perhaps ironically for a company known for family-friendly fare). And on the PC side, there are certainly other ways to get games that don't require you to go through Steam (although right now none are nearly as popular/mainstream). Getting too over-dependent on any one company as your primary distribution vehicle is a risk, so I think that's why many game developers are pushing for a multi-platform/multi-storefront strategy. We'll see how things continue to play out. On Sony's end, I suspect their decision is primarily about cost-savings since they centralized their game review process and applied a sort of "lowest-common denominator" approach. But if it goes too far, they'll get customer push back, and they may already be starting to see that to some degree, and it risks to embolden their competition. I think it's good that people are keeping up the pressure.
About that as you noted many companies specially sony do have some weid "rules" and double standarts like game x can but y no and those stuffs but as we can see most of the times is due to internet pressure, which is the "big element hereI will talk about it later)

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Then the second issue you're bringing up is about moves towards diversity and inclusiveness in games. I honestly don't think most developers do this to "avoid problems with activists" actually; I think many do this, ultimately, because they are trying to expand the size of their audience to increase their profits. I guess I don't really fear this all that much because it's not a zero-sum game. There will always be games that try to market to the "horny teenage boy" demographic (just like shounen harem romantic comedies in the manga world), but there can also be games that try to broaden/diversify/vary their reach. I'm also not really worried about perceived "attacks" from "activist media journalists" as long as it's just constructive criticism -- the companies/leaders making these decisions are adults who can handle being challenged by other viewpoints and defend their decisions. (Of course it if were *actual* attacks, that's a totally different story, and that's never okay whatever the issue is.) The realistic goal of all these kinds of discussions (again, at least among those who are having them in good faith) is not to say that these kinds of games cannot exist, it's that if they are *all* that exist (or the overwhelming majority) they are limiting the reach and potential audience for video games by alienating many potential customers. I'm not worried that we'll go from a world where "all games were targeted to my interests" to one where "no games are targeted to my interests" -- not as long as there's money to be made, and there definitely is. It's not like there are only two options here -- we'll end up somewhere in the middle.
the general problem is again the "power of internet" which was in the past just a "annoying minority" with the advent of inter and in special social networks like twitter and some "activists jornalists (which for me are not really jornalist to be sincere), that "minority start to gain traction and learned how to "blow up stuffs" and make big mess, and it is affecting how games are made for exemple the last star wars game (forget the name now), when EA announced it the first thing some news sites do was "another game with a white characters" and started to complain like crazy then that complain goes to "twitter" and we know what happens when things goes to "twitter", until the game was released and we saw some "non white characters playing big role", another exemple the mandalorian movie, after the first episode happened, what the "so called jornalist and activists in twitter complained???? they count the ammount of "minutes until a "female character" appear, calling the serie sexist and bla bla bla and all the buzzwords, and i'm only talking about "nowadays" because the wave of feminists movies" started early with the ghost buster all female movie, then after that we get a lot of "activist feminists" and others minorities getting "important roles not only as actress but as producer and even president get the famou "Kathleen Kennedy" which was place as president of lucas films because George Lucas asked to place her as president because he thought she could help him in keep making the movies as he want but the first thing she did was give her middle finger to him and ignore any advice or work from him and make her "own stuffs", she literally betrayed him and take advantage of her position and we saw the disater, the same goes for movies like charlies angels and others(which only show how bad are those activists in make movies because they only know how to "make mary sue female characters and make useless/evil male characters, i'm not saying which womans can't make good movies a good exemple is wonderwoman director Patty Jenkins she know what the "real public wants and don't give a shit to those "activists besides herself support the female empowering, she just don't buy the crap from the activists).

Again the problem is which nowadays "being a vocal minority is much, much more strong than it was before, a good exemple is the "cancel culture", were peoples having they lifes being "destroyed" by specially twitter and others social networks like facebook or reddit, while in some cases the peoples, disevers it, we also see more cases of "innocent peoples or at last not that "big monsters as the peoples paint them having they lifes destroyed by it, we have jhonny deep cases, also some recent cases, like swfits(a famous warcraft player), also we had the youtuber angry joe, were some "random females come to twitter started to a accuse then of bad behavious without any proof then later we start to see which "things were not exactly as they were being "told", but the damage already was done (well in the angry joe case it did not affected him beause he acted pretty fast and the woman after see which her "false accusation backfired she deleted and started to say which it not was what she wanted to means and bla bla bla but the others don't have the same lucky).

That social pressure about "don't sexualize" womans or make more "diversity characters" starts to affect many triple A game companies, for exemple, blizzard the new expansion is comming with new "characters customization" and some of then were clearly influenced by that "wave", like for exemple blood elfs with black skin, which in the game story so far never had, this even remembered me the new issue in "D&D" with orcs and dark elfs being "racists" which again was started by jornalists and now the d&d team is planning to change then because "you can't be racist anymore" in a "fantasy theme", because like many others companies wizard of the coats started to hire "activists" and that activists start to get power and influence the place were they works.

ok i'm not saying which we can't have diversity or bla bla bla, i'm totally in with diversity, in one of my games i'm planning to add character customization and many tipes of customization like skin color and bla bla bla, but for me is important make it in a "organic way" not because "pressure" , in a way it looks natural and not because some activists jornalists or some annoying peoples in internet are "forcing you", this goes to a point were many companies start to do that in "auto mode", because for then this is the "new normal".

to be clear i'm not saying which we don't have "serious jornalists" which actually go for "real news" but they are a "minority nowadays", we have peoples like "Jason Schreier" which goes for real issues like crunsh" and others stuffs but we do have a lot of "called jornalist" which are there only to make the next "click bait" hate news, looking for a way to "cancel something", even in "great jornals like cnn and new york times (from the left) hiring more "activists" to work as jornalist then start a full war from left and right" in the jornals, then we also have the twitter which keep gains waves of money by allowing "hate" and cultural and cancel wars to happen in they plataform because it means the plataform gains more and more power overtime, it's soo which nowadays peoples before goes to "police" to make complaint they go to twitter and wait "the internet court do all the job.

edit: i'm not saying which every publisher/developer do that because of "pressure" we have many which do that because they "wanted or like, but we do have a huge pressure come for that which is affecting how "triple A companies" having to work on they games and how it also can later start to affect indie too because of the places in publishing games are "also being affected by that pressure over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So anyway... I think it's possible to take a holistic look at all that's going on, admit that there are indeed problems and concerns that need to be addressed, but without taking things to such an extreme. Pendulums have a way of swinging to extremes in their search for equilibrium. We should be vigilant in defending freedom of expression, yes, but if we go too far in demonizing other views or casting them in the most extreme light possible, we end up looking like the unreasonable ones. The most important thing, it seems to me, is to remain part of the conversation, and that means not falling into the trap of factions and extremist dogma (as certain websites and Youtube channels love to perpetuate), but trying to understand and arrive at a middle ground.
i agree about avoid go "extremist" in both sides, but the problem is currently the pendulum is swinging like crazy and peoples keep "touching the pendulum" to make it never reach the "middle/rest mode because of the current cultural war.

We are seeying constant attacks from western toward japan and that attacks are getting worst and more powerfull overtime because the activists are gain more ground each year" by using some situations" as they plataform to force they full views in the "peoples.
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Last edited by Blueknight78; 2020-07-05 at 13:00.
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Old 2020-07-12, 00:31   Link #17
Blueknight78
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and the "ban hammer" keep moving strong:
YouTube
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amazon is pulling out many "LN" and mangas like no game no life even afected another distribuctor, which also had many of they "orders" canceled due to they being tied to amazon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_gpapHLvvU&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfSA3zZpF4

ok just as disclaimer "ignore the youtubers opnions and just focus on the news as reference, just the news( for peoples come to "evil youtubers and bla bla bla", because for me is much more fast link the video than go look for each site and news to link.

since the BLM the covid and everyone locked and become paranoid and crazy and another "wave" of Metoo it's seens which the Banhammer censor is getting "strong agian" and hitting really hard now, many "indie artists are getting the end of stick since now even patreon and even now "porn hub are going for then.

And now we have amazon banning japanese stuffs, now things are really scaling fast.
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