Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Spoiler for Endings:

Well, while this is your opinion, I would think that to be needlessly cruel, but, and pardon me if this sounds a bit harsh, its no where near as happy and fluffy as Last Episode(which I'm sure you love). Shirou and Sakura will live till the end of their days together, but like everyone else, their souls will be recycled, unless they make a contract and become counter guardians or true heroes and are able to escape the cycle of reincarnation.

Hard as Saber seems to have it in the main story, the legend says she gets eternal rest in Avalon right? Well then, she is better off then the billions of others who have only oblivion to look forward to. So if she and Shirou are the only people who get to experience such paradise, I'd say that HF True is perfectly suitable as a story. It would just be needlessly cruel to have him die and have he and Sakura miss out on the short bit of happiness they would have together for the sake of being tragically beautiful. What she needs is to be able to spend her time with him and to be able to live the life she should have been able to live long ago. But again, you are entitled to your opinion.

That's my two cents, but really, what did you expect me to say in response to that?

Well, I just mean in general for HF, you know? I don't mean endings in general, which one is more fitting. I just mean that for HF on its own, I tend to prefer HF Normal. I'm not saying Sakura should be denied her happiness, I just find that of the two I prefer HF Normal.

[Haak]

Yeah it really comes down to personal taste. I still prefer the True End even though I usually like bittersweet endings (And I don't like Rider sticking around). It's because Ilya got a chance to shine and do something. It's not just Shirou that has motives. Other characters do aswell.

Plus Sakura really needed to see a psychiatrist or something, so seeing her not do so in the Normal Ending was just horryfing.

[Marion]

Replaying through all the routes again I have to say that UBW is my favorite route (despite how much I honestly hate Rin's tsundere behavior, her moments of badass redeem her by the end) followed by Fate and Heaven's Feel, even though the latter is considered to be the true ending overall. Actually I think HF was the hardest to read through as time went on.

Spoiler for Complaints about HF:

While I do feel sorry for Sakura because, yes she definitely suffered a lot, I can't say I like her much as a character. I was expecting her road towards darkness to be a lot more thrilling, but it was ultimately a girl who was blaming everyone else (even people who were total strangers to her were apparently blamed) and going insane with power. From what I saw of depicted fan art, Dark Sakura was this being of pure evil, but in the game what I saw was a mad woman. While it HF it's heartwarming moments, it just got stale to the point that I felt like the game was pressuring me to feel bad for her. Meanwhile, the reasons to feel sympathy for Archer and Saber in the previous arcs flow a lot more smoothly through the story.

Zouken didn't turn out to be that amazing of a Big Bad to me either. Thank goodness Kirei came out of nowhere near the ending and became the final boss, otherwise I couldn't stomach everything that happened. On top of that most of the servant characters disappeared with little to no screen time (Lancer, Caster, Assassin and Gilgamesh to name a few) and what we got in return was excess pity parties for Sakura. Saber becoming corrupted was an interesting dynamic though and Shirou's badass levels were at their highest point, but it doesn't make up for the rest.

Plus Sakura really needed to see a psychiatrist or something, so seeing her not do so in the Normal Ending was just horryfing.

Preach man, preach. Normal Ending might as well be another bad ending, because Sakura pretty much has a mental breakdown from what I'm reading.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Marion

Preach man, preach. Normal Ending might as well be another bad ending, because Sakura pretty much has a mental breakdown from what I'm reading.

I wouldn't exactly call it a mental breakdown, but....

Spoiler for HF:

At the same time, saying that she spent every spring waiting for Shirou to come back in HF Normal because of the promise they made isn't exactly the height of sanity, either, but I wouldn't say she had a mental breakdown. In a way, it sort of oddly fit her character.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Well, I just mean in general for HF, you know? I don't mean endings in general, which one is more fitting. I just mean that for HF on its own, I tend to prefer HF Normal.

I don't agree with this, because it just seems so pointless. Shirou has sacrificed his life, and for what? Sakura isn't happy and Ilya isn't happy. Ultimately, that ending is the result of Shirou failing to recognise that he actually matters as a person, and that Sakura needs him to be happy. It's just plain tragic, and I would say that it doesn't fit at all.

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah it really comes down to personal taste. I still prefer the True End even though I usually like bittersweet endings

Well, that's because the True ending is closer to a Bittersweet ending than the Normal ending is. Whilst the True ending is pretty good, it's not perfect. The Normal end, OTOH, is just an outright downer ending.

(And I don't like Rider sticking around).

The thing is, it'd be hard to justify her not staying around. Even if Sakura didn't have the insane prana supply, UBW Good proves that she has enough to retain a servant even without the Grail (since her supply is equal to Rin's), and she's too nice a person to just let Rider disappear.

It's because Ilya got a chance to shine and do something. It's not just Shirou that has motives. Other characters do aswell.

Yeah, it's nice that Ilya gets to save Shirou. Her ending in the Normal end must actually be really bad. Likely she goes back to the Einsbern Castle and lives out the rest of her life alone, since without Shirou around there is no place for her in the Emiya house, even though Sakura would probably look after her if she asked.

Plus Sakura really needed to see a psychiatrist or something, so seeing her not do so in the Normal Ending was just horryfing.

The problem is, how do you explain what she went through to a psychiatrist? They would simply not believe her, and thus would get the treatment wrong.

[DragoZERO]

Is anyone else having déjà vu?

[GDB]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Is anyone else having déjà vu?

I think it only counts as deja vu if you weren't expecting it, or if it merely gives the illusion of a past experience.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Is anyone else having déjà vu?

Not like there aren't other topics constantly repeated.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

The thing is, it'd be hard to justify her not staying around. Even if Sakura didn't have the insane prana supply, UBW Good proves that she has enough to retain a servant even without the Grail (since her supply is equal to Rin's), and she's too nice a person to just let Rider disappear.

You know perfectly well how I feel about the whole sex = mana logic. I don't even want to think about it...

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Haak

You know perfectly well how I feel about the whole sex = mana logic. I don't even want to think about it...

Which has nothing to do with Sakura's ability to retain Rider. In fact, she is giving prana to Shirou. She retains Rider because Rider has a contract with her and Sakura has enough prana to keep her around even after the war.

[Marion]

Yeah, it's nice that Ilya gets to save Shirou. Her ending in the Normal end must actually be really bad. Likely she goes back to the Einsbern Castle and lives out the rest of her life alone, since without Shirou around there is no place for her in the Emiya house, even though Sakura would probably look after her if she asked.

Spoiler for UBW spoilers:

If what Archer's backstory says is true, Illya dies a year after the war ends no matter what happens.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Which has nothing to do with Sakura's ability to retain Rider. In fact, she is giving prana to Shirou. She retains Rider because Rider has a contract with her and Sakura has enough prana to keep her around even after the war.

And you know how i feel about these servants aswell...

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Marion

Replaying through all the routes again I have to say that UBW is my favorite route (despite how much I honestly hate Rin's tsundere behavior, her moments of badass redeem her by the end) followed by Fate and Heaven's Feel, even though the latter is considered to be the true ending overall. Actually I think HF was the hardest to read through as time went on.

Spoiler for Complaints about HF:

While I do feel sorry for Sakura because, yes she definitely suffered a lot, I can't say I like her much as a character. I was expecting her road towards darkness to be a lot more thrilling, but it was ultimately a girl who was blaming everyone else (even people who were total strangers to her were apparently blamed) and going insane with power. From what I saw of depicted fan art, Dark Sakura was this being of pure evil, but in the game what I saw was a mad woman. While it HF it's heartwarming moments, it just got stale to the point that I felt like the game was pressuring me to feel bad for her. Meanwhile, the reasons to feel sympathy for Archer and Saber in the previous arcs flow a lot more smoothly through the story.

Zouken didn't turn out to be that amazing of a Big Bad to me either. Thank goodness Kirei came out of nowhere near the ending and became the final boss, otherwise I couldn't stomach everything that happened. On top of that most of the servant characters disappeared with little to no screen time (Lancer, Caster, Assassin and Gilgamesh to name a few) and what we got in return was excess pity parties for Sakura. Saber becoming corrupted was an interesting dynamic though and Shirou's badass levels were at their highest point, but it doesn't make up for the rest.

Preach man, preach. Normal Ending might as well be another bad ending, because Sakura pretty much has a mental breakdown from what I'm reading.

Spoiler for Sakura:

Well, considering that she was put in a rather precarious position in HF in comparison to Rin and Saber. I have heard plenty of people bring up the "this was stuffed down my throat" spiel all the time. However, it rather seems that they couldn't understand how fucked she actually was. They couldn't grasp their minds around the situation because it was too alien, so empathy was lost. The worms couldn't be removed wihtout the regernation, but the regeneration required AM (or else Kotomine was trollin even harder than we thought when he said he couldn't remove the soul jar in her heart, which makes me less than favourable to him). But besides that, she had plenty of good character qualities if you payed attention. This particular scene in particular:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPWfL...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsoLy...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho3V-...eature=related
Loads of insight into her character. Its not that she blamed people, but shit, she was rather frustrated and she had a right to be. Plus the multitude of things that went on one by one cascading into a clusterfuck. It wasn't a descent into darkness, it was more a descent into madness, because she isn't some dark person who puts on a mask. She is rather a person who was forced into a situation that coped as best she could, despite extenuating circumstances. The point isn't to feel sorry for Sakura, but to understand where she is coming from, if even just a bit. But hey, you wouldn't be the only one who failed that, Rin did too.

Originally Posted by Haak

And you know how i feel about these servants aswell...

Did you say how you felt about Rider? I hadn't caught that.

[LostHanyou]

Completely irrelevant to the current conversation

Spoiler:

What do you all think Kotomine meant when he said Rin would want a wish from the Grail in the Mind of Steel bad end? I'm considering making a fanfiction of the events we don't see in the VN, but I can't quite grasp what Kotomine meant, though I have a few guesses. I just don't think anything Rin could wish for would fix anything.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

Completely irrelevant to the current conversation

Spoiler:

What do you all think Kotomine meant when he said Rin would want a wish from the Grail in the Mind of Steel bad end? I'm considering making a fanfiction of the events we don't see in the VN, but I can't quite grasp what Kotomine meant, though I have a few guesses. I just don't think anything Rin could wish for would fix anything.

My only guess would be saving her father or Sakura. Oh, it could also be world domination...I'd submit.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

My only guess would be saving her father or Sakura. Oh, it could also be world domination...I'd submit.

She doesn't want a wish. She just wants to fulfill her 'duty' and win the Grail, as she originally planned (but now she is actually ruthless enough to do it). However, if she did have a wish, I would imagine that it would be to save Sakura somehow...

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

She doesn't want a wish. She just wants to fulfill her 'duty' and win the Grail, as she originally planned (but now she is actually ruthless enough to do it). However, if she did have a wish, I would imagine that it would be to save Sakura somehow...

We know she is doing it out of duty and a sense of obligation. I think it's one reason she was able to work with Shirou so well - neither had a true wish in mind...at least in the beginning.

Mine would have been a harem route.

I kid...I kid...

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by LostHanyou

Completely irrelevant to the current conversation

Spoiler:

What do you all think Kotomine meant when he said Rin would want a wish from the Grail in the Mind of Steel bad end? I'm considering making a fanfiction of the events we don't see in the VN, but I can't quite grasp what Kotomine meant, though I have a few guesses. I just don't think anything Rin could wish for would fix anything.

Spoiler for MoS Possible end:

Well she is in a rather difficult situation, because while she is still at an emotional crossroads, so pushing herself to get the grail at all cost (which what Kotomine is pointing out imo) will be the only way for her to stay sane and keep her from thinking about what she just did.

Now, if my other theory is correct, and Kotomine was just trolling when he said the worm in her heart was not removable without killing her, then here is where things get dicey. Kirei would not fail to take advantage of that, and then we have two generations of trolled Tohsakas. Quite sad indeed.

[LostHanyou]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Spoiler for MoS Possible end:

Well she is in a rather difficult situation, because while she is still at an emotional crossroads, so pushing herself to get the grail at all cost (which what Kotomine is pointing out imo) will be the only way for her to stay sane and keep her from thinking about what she just did.

Now, if my other theory is correct, and Kotomine was just trolling when he said the worm in her heart was not removable without killing her, then here is where things get dicey. Kirei would not fail to take advantage of that, and then we have two generations of trolled Tohsakas. Quite sad indeed.

Spoiler:

Oh, I see. I was under the impression Kirei was implying that she would have an actual reason (a wish) to obtain the grail at that point. I was thinking along the lines of 'save Sakura', but I wasn't sure. What you say does fit Rin's personality, however I'm not sure if she wouldn't come up with a wish in the end.

Also I don't see why Kirei would say that with the intent to troll when it would hurt his chances of Angra Mainyu being born. Of course, he's a rather sporadic character...

[DragoZERO]

Damnit....I need to read Fate/Zero.