2010-06-27, 13:40 | Link #11801 | |
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
俺は、右代宮、(「明日夢から生まれた」の部分が復唱不能) (I, Ushiromiya, (Battler can't repeat "from Asumu I was born")) He can repeat "himself" or "I," he can't repeat the idea of being born from Asumu, but he also can't repeat the fact of being born. "I was born from" is a nuance of English translation and isn't part of the original Japanese red. Actually, thinking about it more, it's more like "Am born from Asumu Ushiromiya I" using both western name order and REALLY freaky syntax is the only way to completely express the same idea. |
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2010-06-27, 13:44 | Link #11803 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
The red you presume that "Battler is not Asumu's son" simply doesn't exist.
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2010-06-27, 13:47 | Link #11805 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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You sure? The text I am speaking of is used by ANGE-BEATRICE to confirm the other text about Ushiromiya Battler not being Ushirmiya Asumu's son. It's in the wiki, http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Tr...e_Golden_Witchused to confirm statement 149), but I'll go and replay episode 4 just to be safe.
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2010-06-27, 13:58 | Link #11806 | ||
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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If she unambiguously refers to This Battler, this statement provides no information whatsoever on the Other Battler. It is not required to be true for any possible Battler, otherwise Nanjo Junior and a few more hundred people would have to be on Rokkenjima on this day. It may limit the gender of the Other Battler only if it refers to the Other Battler. P.S. I still think there should be a way to deny the Other Battler completely, as it's the consequences of one existing that are the problem, not Jessica being Rudolf's daughter.
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2010-06-27, 14:00 | Link #11807 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I forgot whether Nanjo Jr. was ever given a name in ep4, so I went back and looked in the TIPS, which list him as Masayuki Nanjo. I don't remember that ever actually coming up in the text though, but I probably just forgot.
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2010-06-27, 14:05 | Link #11809 |
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
Join Date: Apr 2009
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... The only thing I can think of is there is a clever Japanese wordplay going on, which is the only thing I can think of.
Usually the verb Umareru (生まれる) strictly means "to be born." It is also a passive conjugation of Umu (生む) which is "to give birth to." Umareru usually only carries the definition "being born" physically, as a woman went through labor and had a baby. However, Umu is MUCH tricker. It usually can also mean just "to produce." Here's an example sentence: 親しさは侮りを生む。 (shitashisa wa anadori wo umu) It means "Familiarity breeds contempt." If we assume that Umareru is not being strictly used as it usually is (not as it usually stand alone verb but more a passive conjugation of Umu) then we could say that some how Asumu didn't "give birth" to him per say, but maybe she produced the idea of him. Maybe the name? Or Asumu made Kyrie mad about her having Rudolf to herself. Kyrie gets extremely jealous and vengeful, which causes Kyrie to sleep with Rudolf. She has Battler. In that scenario, Asumu does kind of produce or give way for Battler. You could also say that Asumu's motherly kindness to Battler produced the Battler that we have today. Beatrice says Umareru in this context, and not the traditional "give birth to" context. Battler CAN'T REPEAT the same sentence back because he assumes that Beatrice is using the "give birth to" context. Because of this wrong context assumption, he can't repeat the same sentence? I mean, it's plausible since we've all said before that Red is heavily dependent on context and is there to mislead us sometimes. |
2010-06-27, 14:09 | Link #11812 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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True, Ange says:
戦人は明日夢の息子ではない "Batora wa Asumu no musuko dewa nai" "Battler is not Asumu's son" she didn't use the the form "isn't born from", I wonder if this includes even a foster son? That wouldn't make sense 'though... She didn't use the surnames either but... "Battler" by itself is pretty unique. There is no reason for Ange to lie or be deceiving about this one. Battler isn't Asumu's son, and yet someone named Ushiromiya Battler was born from Asumu. Quote:
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2010-06-27, 14:10 | Link #11813 | |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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The reason I am pushing this towards Jessica, if anyone(remember, the second Battler could simply be dead!), is because thematically it seems to fit. Jan-Poo - Battler is Asumu's foster son. She did raise him. So I think this has to be in terms of parenthood. Meaning that we do have to acknowledge that a second Battler exists, one that in my opinion, is most likely female. Or dead lol. |
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2010-06-27, 14:10 | Link #11814 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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It's certainly possible. However, this is very, very shaky, I basically wouldn't be sure unless a native said that it can be read that way.
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2010-06-27, 14:18 | Link #11816 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
It does the damage by making it ambiguous whether any red that mentions Battler refer to This Battler or Other Battler -- including, in particular "Battler is not the culprit, Battler did not kill anyone", but also many other, more particular and less far-reaching reds. As we know from Kinzotrice... anything that expands the witch's darkness gives room to horrible absurdities that are extremely hard to deny. And this is what the existence of the Other Battler does. Sure, Jessica can be Rudolf+Asumu's daughter, no problem, but if she can rightfully bear the name "Ushiromiya Battler" by that, we're screwed.
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2010-06-27, 14:20 | Link #11817 |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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Huzzah! We've proven beyond a doubt that a second Battler was born- Wait, crap. At least we managed to clear up this a bit, for better or for worse.
So, now that that's mostly settled, do you think this fella is alive? Dead? Jessica? Shannon? Gohda? Or is he a dance instructor at the YMCA who has no relevance to the story? Oliver - It's better for us that this other Battler is dead, but how would Beatrice know about some dead child? I for one can not dismiss it as a mere trick used by the author, it has to have some significance. I found Jessica and Genji's omission in episode 6 a bit suspicious, and this may be the answer I am searching for. |
2010-06-27, 14:22 | Link #11818 | |
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
My exactly theory is that Beatrice is not using a "to be born from" strict context, but a more lax "to be produced from" laid-back context. It opens up more doors and allows us to think a little more freely. Almost like "Ushiromiya Battler was produced from/came from Ushiromiya Asumu" and not "was born from" since the definition could still stick for Umareru. |
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2010-06-27, 14:23 | Link #11819 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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EDIT: If we go by hints from Higurashi though the idea of "twins" or "two successors" is bad for families like the Ushiromiya family. So they might go as far as infanticide to get rid of an unnecessary heir. The Sonazaki's were reluctant to, but the Ushiromiyas might not be.
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2010-06-27, 14:28 | Link #11820 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The best guess that can be made is that this "Battler Ushiromiya" was born already dead and was replaced with Kyrie's son.
But who knows... the best guess is not always to correct one. Still I'm not really fond of the idea of another Battler running around, so I'd rather have him dead.
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