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BWTraveller · 2020-07-13, 23:01

I'm sorry about going on about this stuff. I know I take what most would consider a dumb and overly-strict limit on what I refer to with words like "racist" or "bigot". I jut don't see any value in using those terms. All throwing denunciations of bigotry at others does is foster resentment and increase friction; it rarely helps a situation. I'd much rather talk about efforts to increase investment in struggling communities, to find ways to bring access to quality education and training to those that have not been able to get it, to increase interactions with the people who serve communities outside of that service to build a real relationship, trust in the community and commitment by those in service to help and protect them, to calm this insane world down a bit and maybe go back to a world where the news isn't filled with atrocities, tragedies, and hate. And about this show, which generally didn't throw accusations that strongly but still very effectively showed the pain caused by ignorance, poor choices in how one presents things, the corrosive effects of hatred, failures in government, and so much more.

Haak · 2020-07-14, 13:58

Spoiler for “Episode 8”:

TL;DR…

@BWTraveller

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

BWTraveller · 2020-07-14, 15:16

I wouldn't really call it an axe to grind. I'm just sick and tired of watching the world attacking itself, everyone hating everyone and saying and doing things that only make the hatred grow. I feel like there are better ways to get institutions to put more effort into helping than telling them they're all bigots even if they don't know it. As I said in my previous post, I just want to go back to a world that isn't on fire, filled with bastards attacking others just because their skin's a little darker and people tearing down statues without stopping to check whether the guy was a slave-owning Confederate general or an abolitionist who died fighting for freedom for all.

BetoJR · 2020-07-15, 08:41

Good Lord, I really needed the laugh. Thanks, guys.

BWTraveller · 2020-07-15, 10:39

I wish I could laugh. It's all just too relevant, and not just the stuff where beastmen are easily connected to different races but also those where they're closer to the physiologically or mentally atypical. It's all so complicated and falls apart so quickly, and it's so charged with hate and stained by past injustices. And it doesn't help that we're currently in a situation where resources are strained, making it even harder to change things and making the need for a change all the more immediate. Ultimately I liked this show, a lot more than I thought I would, and I thought it did a good job at dealing with this complicated mess.

I do wonder if there are any actual real-world situations that are applicable to the albatross' plight though.

Either way I'm out. Please don't tell me how I have an axe to grind, or how I'm wrong or right, or how I made you laugh or cry. I'd rather not engage in such conversation anymore, and I have trouble not responding when someone talks to me.

Haak · 2020-07-18, 03:38

Spoiler for Episode 9:

Okay, so I am rather confused by how I’m supposed to interpret this episode and there seems be some rather mixed messages that I’m not getting. To begin with there was this whole awkward moment where Michiru thinks Nazuna’s been kidnapped again and has this awkwardly long drawn out fight with security before being admonished because she was too quick to judge…except the circumstances are so contrived that it comes across completely fake. They were literally the same people who Michiru saw kidnap Nazuna before and at the end of the day they’re still doing shady shit. Any rational person would have made the same conclusions. And why the hell did they have to have that long drawn out conflict with Michiru and the security when Nazuna was right there and could've just fucking said something instead of watching that debacle go on for as long as it did?

I can’t tell if the writers are portraying Michiru as still too quick to judge or if she’s being manipulated by a villain’s sly narrative (because we already know at this point that Alan’s group is clearly fucking evil), but either way she’s being stupid and that’s questionable writing. Why would you gimp your main character like that this late in the story? When you make a show of having your main character decide to be less judgemental like you did in the previous episode, you’re only regressing your character when they continue to behave the same as always. And even if it is the case that Michiru is simply falling for a villain’s sly narrative, you’d have hoped your main character would be a bit smarter than that and capable of seeing the bullshit behind a guy making a fake cult so he can manipulate a race, because he has some rather questionably negative stereotypes about said race. And especially when the company he runs has a history of extremely fucked up medical malpractice that he’s deliberately covered up.

And then there’s Michiru’s conversation with Shirou afterwards and how she defended Nazuna as someone who is still good deep down even though they are literally creating a cult and manipulating people. I get the feeling that the show is giving this whole “cult” idea far too much credibility than it deserves but then it shows the same cult leader creating literal kaiju and I don’t know what this show is trying to say anymore. The only other interpretation I can of is that the show is portraying Michiru as too biased and lenient towards her friend for shit that’s clearly not okay but then there’s scenes like the car ride afterwards suggesting it’s a “both sides” thing when no sane person would think so.

Here's hoping the last remaining episodes offer a little more clarity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I wouldn't really call it an axe to grind. I'm just sick and tired of watching the world attacking itself, everyone hating everyone and saying and doing things that only make the hatred grow. I feel like there are better ways to get institutions to put more effort into helping than telling them they're all bigots even if they don't know it. As I said in my previous post, I just want to go back to a world that isn't on fire, filled with bastards attacking others just because their skin's a little darker and people tearing down statues without stopping to check whether the guy was a slave-owning Confederate general or an abolitionist who died fighting for freedom for all.

I hate to break this to you but people were attacking others for having darker skin well before you thought the world was burning. To think the world is only now burning because the wrong statue got torn down...

orion · 2020-07-18, 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

I hate to break this to you but people were attacking others for having darker skin well before you thought the world was burning. To think the world is only now burning because the wrong statue got torn down...

I don't think history should be sanitized. Gotta accept the good with the bad and learn from both.

Haak · 2020-07-18, 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by orion

I don't think history should be sanitized. Gotta accept the good with the bad and learn from both.

If you're talking about statues in general then I'd be inclined to agree.

The problem is it isn't really that simple for America.

But now that you've said that you've made realise something about BNA.

Spoiler for Episode 8:

BWTraveller · 2020-07-18, 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

I hate to break this to you but people were attacking others for having darker skin well before you thought the world was burning. To think the world is only now burning because the wrong statue got torn down...

First off, I asked to please just not respond. Second, you miss the point. I'm not blind, I know things have been bad, sometimes getting better, sometimes getting worse, but right now things are going insane, and I just want things to calm down. The way things are right now I don't think it'd even be possible to improve. And seriously, you have to focus on the fact that I made mention of something stupid on the black side only? I made a point of starting with the uptick in bastards attacking people for being a different race. My only point about the statues was a simple wat people are getting excessively fervent with this, pulling down anything they think might be negative in some way.

As for Michiru, I'd say she's always been set up to have this flaw. She always runs ahead without thinking things through all the way, and screwed up in a variety of ways. This includes rushing to trust people who weren't 100% trustworthy, getting herself in one jam after another, and also approaching her predicament in a way that she doesn't even register would offend other people. And again, in the show like in real life, things are complicated. I don't think the show's trying to present much as "right" or "wrong", just decisions that were made and consequences resulting. The cult is ostensibly an attempt to foster specific morals and decrease crime and violence, but it's not presented as an actual good way to do it. And thus Michiru's conflict: her friend is doing something that's clearly wrong, but she's doing it for reasons that she can't entirely dismiss as bad.

Haak · 2020-07-21, 14:00

Spoiler for Episode 10:

Well that was awkward. So apparently this particular fantasy minority race has an inherent predisposition to violence especially when segregated. I sure as hell would have liked to just bury my head in the sand like a Trump supporter and just plain pretend it isn’t saying what I think it’s saying but that’s not really choice when it shot itself in the foot by invoking Godwin’s Law the way it did in a previous episode…

And naturally it seems the show has suddenly decided segregation is not the answer Anima City needs. Because if not, the minority will all turn into giant kaiju and wreak havoc on society.

Well at least there are signs of hope: The show could very well pull a Zootopia level misdirection and at the end of the day Alan appears to be a damn obvious villain gaslighting the protagonists (“Oh gee, did those robots I sent happen to have live ammunition and happened to fire indiscriminately? Lololol, sorry about that!”), but it’s the same as what I pointed in the last episode: It’s such a shame that the protagonists have suddenly become as stupid as they currently are. The previous episode was bad enough, but this episode just piles it on. I mean come on: if what Alan was saying is true and that Shirou’s ancient society were slaughtered because they all became wild, why is this a revelation now? Why wouldn’t this be recorded history, especially when history has a habit of being written by victors? Also, somehow beastmen did not become wild kaiju in 1000 years? No recorded history of this occurring whatsoever? If an idiot like me can point out all these holes, surely Shirou should be able to. One could make the point that Michiru is just a dumb naïve teen but Shirou is literally 1000 years old. And I guess it is just a convenient coincidence that his memory of events 1000 priors just happens to be hazy enough for him to be gaslit about it. I'm obviously not going to mind if it is all a misdirection (In fact I'm praying to God that it is), but that doesn't stop it from being a badly executed one.

Hoping now that the remaining episodes make up for it.

BWTraveller · 2020-07-21, 20:00

I said it before, and I'll say it again.

Spoiler:

As for the history,

Spoiler:

Haak · 2020-07-24, 10:08

Spoiler for Episode 11:

A definite improvement over the previous episode.

So it turns out the whole Nirvasyl syndrome thing is real (with all the implications attached), but overall I’d say the episode made some strong points in spite of it. At first I was confused as to why Michiru would point a gun at Shirou and then of all things start apologizing to him about how she should have listened to him a bit more but then it dawned on me that a chief message appeared to be emerging from this episode (and from the past episodes): the need social policies and opinions to be actually based on listening and engaging with the group in question instead of forming policies unilaterally that will inevitably end up totally out of touch with reality and cause more harm than good.

We actually saw this in two distinct occasions in the previous episode. Alan claims he has a eugenics solution for beastmen that will become mandatory and his argument appears convincing but Shirou angrily rejects him on the grounds that it is not for him (a human) to decide such a thing unilaterally. Then the Mayor appeals to the Prime Minister to dismantle Anima City completely without bothering to seek any kind of democratic mandate among her own people. She chose not the trust her own people and the story promptly shits on her for it by having her back-stabbed by the Prime Minister. We even saw a similar theme running in previous episodes with the Albatross and the girl who nearly accidentally killed Dolphin Girl by putting her in a water tank out of ignorance.

And finally we see this episode just how bad things can go. At the end of the day when you don’t wish to seek bilateral decision making, you open the door up for more nefarious people to hijack and take control of the situation and that’s exactly what we saw with Alan and cult. It’s now revealed that there were never any good intentions behind the cult: It was all just a ruse to cause the maximum amount of psychological damage as possible and it was done so because nefarious people were able to infiltrate on a systematic level and were able to carry out their plan successfully thanks to the support of well-intentioned Useful Idiots like Nazuna (and to a lesser extent Michiru)

Speaking of Nazuna I’m not really sure how self-aware the story is when it comes to her. I wonder if she is going to have any self-reflection on the damage she’s had a hand in causing out of sheer ignorance and whether Michiru will rethink how to handle Useful Idiots like her moving forward. Because for all intents and purposes, Michiru tried the reconciliatory approach and…well…look how that turned out. I mean damn, if I could’ve written it I don’t think I could’ve been that harsh. Michiru did manage to get Nazuna to not make the reveal herself but ironically that lead to events that now make Nazuna look even worse than if she’d confessed herself. What a shambles.

And on another level, the episode also makes a pointed commentary on how people in power will use bad faith and cynical actions to sow discord so that they can justify a heavy handed “solution” like what we’ve seen here with the robots and violence. A rather potent reminder for today’s world.

But whilst I appreciate all this, I still can’t really get behind the need for the story to ruin its characters the way it has. Okay, ruin I a bit much but I really really liked Michiru (and all the other characters) and these last few episodes have really taken them down a peg and not in a good way. I still like them overall but to have something go from excellent to just good is a bit of bummer.

Last episode remaining

BWTraveller · 2020-07-24, 10:55

While I agree with much of what you said, I'd again have to disagree about the show changing or "ruining" the characters. It felt like a fairly believable flow to me, with character flaws being shown on and off throughout now coming to a head in a dangerous way. They were always the way they are now in my opinion, it's just things weren't this bad before and the scale of a situation can change how a person looks. A person could be a fairly good individual and do some really good work when things are calm and overall prosperous, but put them in a situation where everything's hitting the fan, and suddenly it's a lot harder to get out of any slip-ups and they quickly go from a good person to an absolute moron (just so no one misunderstands me, I am NOT talking about any current political figures).

And honestly, I do kind of wish they'd come up with a way to make a big climactic ending without twisting things so that mental conditions were involved as well, even if that side hits a bit deeper for me. It does muddy the waters in a way.

Ghostfriendly · 2020-07-24, 11:26

Depicting victims of racism and genocide as stupid, selfish and congenitally violent (most of the beastmen) makes for a poor story. The ideas that a persecuted minority in a ghetto are violent because of their DNA, not their persecution, and that 'putting different groups together always leads to violence' aren't just from the anime that Enoch Powell would make; it robs everyone outside the lead characters of the agency that would make them more than literal animals in a ghetto. Is that a good thing to portray about even a fictional persecuted minority? Blaming the beastmen's problems on genetic roid-rage (this kind of biological determinism is the bedrock of racism) defeats the effort the series does make to criticise big pharma and racism, as well as what could have been a sensible message that multiculturalism is not always easy or painless (because of cultural and historic differences, not racial ones). A hint of genocide denial was also very unwelcome, though I'm going to be generous and say that we can infer Alan was lying about the fate of Nirvasyl. Humans with bows, armour, military tactic and a numerical advantage absolutely could have massacred beastmen, even without the help of a three-headed wolf monster.

Still, I thought the lead characters were likable, with their dramas and personalities quite decently constructed. Michiru was certainly the bumbling and lovable shapeshifter of a Tanuki girl we badly needed, after that hopeless degraded victim of Stockholm Syndrome in Shield Hero. The Mink Girl and Molerat Mayor were good characters with good designs as well, and I liked the animation.

BWTraveller · 2020-07-24, 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

Depicting victims of racism and genocide as stupid, selfish and congenitally violent (most of the beastmen) makes for a poor story. The ideas that a persecuted minority in a ghetto are violent because of their DNA, not their persecution, and that 'putting different groups together always leads to violence' aren't just from the anime that Enoch Powell would make; it robs everyone outside the lead characters of the agency that would make them more than literal animals in a ghetto. Is that a good thing to portray about even a fictional persecuted minority? Blaming the beastmen's problems on genetic roid-rage (this kind of biological determinism is the bedrock of racism) defeats the effort the series does make to criticise big pharma and racism, as well as what could have been a sensible message that multiculturalism is not always easy or painless (because of cultural and historic differences, not racial ones). A hint of genocide denial was also very unwelcome, though I'm going to be generous and say that we can infer Alan was lying about the fate of Nirvasyl. Humans with bows, armour, military tactic and a numerical advantage absolutely could have massacred beastmen, even without the help of a three-headed wolf monster.

Still, I thought the lead characters were likable, with their dramas and personalities quite decently constructed. Michiru was certainly the bumbling and lovable shapeshifter of a Tanuki girl we badly needed, after that hopeless degraded victim of Stockholm Syndrome in Shield Hero. The Mink Girl and Molerat Mayor were good characters with good designs as well, and I liked the animation.

To be fair, it doesn't really go so far as to suggest that the general violence and high crime in the area is a result of their DNA. It's only their tendency to turn into Kaiju when under extreme stress that is set up as genetic, and possibly their tendency to trust more readily than humans. So no, it's not saying that they're violent because of anything besides the situation they're in. I do understand that suggesting there's any kind of behavioral tendencies that are connected to race is patently false and more than a little off-putting, though. While I related pretty well to the aspects more connected to neurological variance rather than race, it certainly was at the least questionable to mix the two.

And I don't think they're all that big on denial of atrocities. In Shiro's backstory we see confirmation of a variety of other atrocities, including beastmen being kept in obvious concentration camps where they're experimented on like lab rats. Saying that one massacre wasn't their fault doesn't begin to make the humans guilt-free after things like that; if anything, it feels like Nirvasyl was minor compared to the things that are confirmed to have happened, like denying that you killed a guy's brother but admitting to raping and killing his mother and sisters.

Tenzen12 · 2020-07-24, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

Depicting victims of racism and genocide as stupid, selfish and congenitally violent (most of the beastmen) makes for a poor story. The ideas that a persecuted minority in a ghetto are violent because of their DNA, not their persecution, and that 'putting different groups together always leads to violence' aren't just from the anime that Enoch Powell would make; it robs everyone outside the lead characters of the agency that would make them more than literal animals in a ghetto. Is that a good thing to portray about even a fictional persecuted minority? Blaming the beastmen's problems on genetic roid-rage (this kind of biological determinism is the bedrock of racism) defeats the effort the series does make to criticise big pharma and racism, as well as what could have been a sensible message that multiculturalism is not always easy or painless (because of cultural and historic differences, not racial ones). A hint of genocide denial was also very unwelcome, though I'm going to be generous and say that we can infer Alan was lying about the fate of Nirvasyl. Humans with bows, armour, military tactic and a numerical advantage absolutely could have massacred beastmen, even without the help of a three-headed wolf monster.

Still, I thought the lead characters were likable, with their dramas and personalities quite decently constructed. Michiru was certainly the bumbling and lovable shapeshifter of a Tanuki girl we badly needed, after that hopeless degraded victim of Stockholm Syndrome in Shield Hero. The Mink Girl and Molerat Mayor were good characters with good designs as well, and I liked the animation.

I don't remember any part of anime implying animal humans are lacking intelectually.

Also BNA is first and foremost fiction. There is nothing wrong with orcs or goblins being evil, angels good and animalish beings wild (nor is wrong to subvert that. Anything goes as long as it make good story). Problem only start if someone try draw comparisson between human races and completely different inteligent fantasy spieces. And if someone does that, they are also only ones bothered by that, so it doesn't really matter anyway.

Haak · 2020-07-27, 11:29

Spoiler for Finale:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/EdQJVGZmp-E

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Well that was just a hot mess really. Far too much happening in one episode to fully register what was going on: Felt more like I was watching a summary of events than a properly paced finale.

So it turns out the Nirvasyl syndrome can be solved through less drastic serum transfusions and Wolf-Jesus howls but the whole Nirvasyl syndrome thing just felt like such a last minute problem to begin with that I found it hard to care now. Also kind of weird how Shirou makes all the beastmen howl regardless of whether they're in the Canid family or not.

The show had another big twist left up it's sleeve though i'm not really sure what to make of it: Turns out Alan was a Beastman all along. And not just a Beastman but a "pure" Beastman that can control humans? Don't really see the point of something like that but then again, I didn't see much point in Shirou being Wolf-Jesus either. Alan seems to espouse some rather out dated Master race shit. I guess if I were to take my previous speculation, then the logical conclusion would be that Alan is an illustration of how the systemic racism of today is at its core still deeply based on centuries old racism? It's not an interpretation I'm all that confident of but that's the best I can think of. And of course Shirou defeats him because he obviously would. The only other possible interpretation I'm seeing here is whenever you see a rich racist fascist, beat the living shit out them? I guess I'll keep that in mind.

In the end I'm struggling to understand what exactly the show was trying to say. Michiru did have a moment where she announced in rather dramatic fashion about how she'll decide her own identity but it's not like eugenics is a serious threat to any race in this current age so it all pretty much feels exactly like the kind of Fantastic Aesop, I feared it would wind up falling into. I guess maybe this message has a bit more merit in issues of multiculturalism vs integration, in LGBTQ issues and with multiracial identities but only one of those issues was actually touched upon previously (and even then only briefly and not related to Michiru) and I feel that lumping all these different individually complex issues together is going to produce more confusion than any substantial insight.

The Nazuna equation was handled rather awkwardly as well: She managed to regain her reputation rather easily (so much for Beastmen having deep prejudices) and the story seems to be giving her a pass on the whole deception thing so there you go.

Overall, I feel rather conflicted about the show. It started off strong but I felt like it lost the plot when it started getting a bit too fantastical. Still a good story but could've been better.

BWTraveller · 2020-07-27, 15:04

Well, as I'd said before, I think one message they might be trying to convey is: it's complicated. There are lots of motivations, lots of prejudices, lots of causes and effects and issues, and writing people off as criminals or bad people is not really getting the whole picture. Nazuna is a great example there I think. Yes, she did deceive the people, but she did it because she had been thoroughly deceived herself and completely believed that given the circumstances the deception was the most effective, if not the only substantially effective, way she could help keep things from exploding. When she finally realized that she'd been duped and saw the scale of the chaos caused by her mistake, she sought to go out and help. Perhaps she continued to hold some selfish desires as well, some deep-rooted desire for documentation of her efforts to bring about fame and fortune, but that is not the main goal. And this lack of understanding itself makes it hard for Michiru to hate her or completely condemn her even as she disagrees with what she's doing, because she knows that Nazuna's doing what she earnestly believes will help save lives and she can't entirely deny (at first) that lives may indeed be saved.

If anything, I think that's one of the biggest messages: the need to seriously look at one another, to get to know each other as different peoples, and as different people. Not properly understanding another people and the complex issues they're dealing with can result in one's words or actions being offensive or even harmful, and not properly seeing the person him/herself can equally harm. Again, it's complex and one needs to appreciate that complexity.

2020-07-13, 23:01	Link #41
BWTraveller Born to ship Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Texas	I'm sorry about going on about this stuff. I know I take what most would consider a dumb and overly-strict limit on what I refer to with words like "racist" or "bigot". I jut don't see any value in using those terms. All throwing denunciations of bigotry at others does is foster resentment and increase friction; it rarely helps a situation. I'd much rather talk about efforts to increase investment in struggling communities, to find ways to bring access to quality education and training to those that have not been able to get it, to increase interactions with the people who serve communities outside of that service to build a real relationship, trust in the community and commitment by those in service to help and protect them, to calm this insane world down a bit and maybe go back to a world where the news isn't filled with atrocities, tragedies, and hate. And about this show, which generally didn't throw accusations that strongly but still very effectively showed the pain caused by ignorance, poor choices in how one presents things, the corrosive effects of hatred, failures in government, and so much more. Last edited by BWTraveller; 2020-07-14 at 00:14.

2020-07-14, 13:58	Link #42
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Spoiler for “Episode 8”: Welp, that didn’t last long did it? XP There were three major aspects to this episode, one of which I didn’t particularly like, another that I’m ambivalent towards and the final that I legitimately liked. The aforementioned shark jumping and the cult leader waltzing straight into villain territory destroying all nuance the show could have had is disappointing to say the least. He could still turn out to have his own reasons because we still don’t really know the depth of villainy of the scientist he appeared to be dealing with, but regardless turning someone into a destructive rampaging kaiju threatening lives is as clear cut evil as you could get. The silver lining is that Nazuna was left out of this development indicating further that she is merely misguided by the cult leader as opposed to an active participant, but ultimately whatever theme was supposed to be explored with the cult has lost its edge. Shirou literally turning out to be a superhero. It’s predictable but to be honest I’m savvy enough at this point to be expecting any and all outcomes so maybe it’s a little unfair for me to be judging this one. I guess maybe they thought the misdirection would be in thinking Michiru being the main protagonist must be the “chosen one” and thus Ginrou-sama but I never followed that line of thinking. All I can say is that I don’t see what value Shirou being a superhero adds to the story. It’s cool and all, and it serves as convenient excuse to infodump the ancient history of beastmen, but I would have much preferred a more “grounded” backstory like what we got with the mayor. And finally… Images Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? It takes a lot to admit prejudices so it was nice to see a further act of virtue from Michiru opening up and discussing the misconceptions she held. She won a lot of brownie points there for me and this was a good episode for her. TL;DR… @BWTraveller Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2020-07-15, 10:39	Link #45
BWTraveller Born to ship Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Texas	I wish I could laugh. It's all just too relevant, and not just the stuff where beastmen are easily connected to different races but also those where they're closer to the physiologically or mentally atypical. It's all so complicated and falls apart so quickly, and it's so charged with hate and stained by past injustices. And it doesn't help that we're currently in a situation where resources are strained, making it even harder to change things and making the need for a change all the more immediate. Ultimately I liked this show, a lot more than I thought I would, and I thought it did a good job at dealing with this complicated mess. I do wonder if there are any actual real-world situations that are applicable to the albatross' plight though. Either way I'm out. Please don't tell me how I have an axe to grind, or how I'm wrong or right, or how I made you laugh or cry. I'd rather not engage in such conversation anymore, and I have trouble not responding when someone talks to me. Last edited by BWTraveller; 2020-07-15 at 11:05.

2020-07-21, 14:00	Link #50
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Spoiler for Episode 10: Well that was awkward. So apparently this particular fantasy minority race has an inherent predisposition to violence especially when segregated. I sure as hell would have liked to just bury my head in the sand like a Trump supporter and just plain pretend it isn’t saying what I think it’s saying but that’s not really choice when it shot itself in the foot by invoking Godwin’s Law the way it did in a previous episode… And naturally it seems the show has suddenly decided segregation is not the answer Anima City needs. Because if not, the minority will all turn into giant kaiju and wreak havoc on society. Well at least there are signs of hope: The show could very well pull a Zootopia level misdirection and at the end of the day Alan appears to be a damn obvious villain gaslighting the protagonists (“Oh gee, did those robots I sent happen to have live ammunition and happened to fire indiscriminately? Lololol, sorry about that!”), but it’s the same as what I pointed in the last episode: It’s such a shame that the protagonists have suddenly become as stupid as they currently are. The previous episode was bad enough, but this episode just piles it on. I mean come on: if what Alan was saying is true and that Shirou’s ancient society were slaughtered because they all became wild, why is this a revelation now? Why wouldn’t this be recorded history, especially when history has a habit of being written by victors? Also, somehow beastmen did not become wild kaiju in 1000 years? No recorded history of this occurring whatsoever? If an idiot like me can point out all these holes, surely Shirou should be able to. One could make the point that Michiru is just a dumb naïve teen but Shirou is literally 1000 years old. And I guess it is just a convenient coincidence that his memory of events 1000 priors just happens to be hazy enough for him to be gaslit about it. I'm obviously not going to mind if it is all a misdirection (In fact I'm praying to God that it is), but that doesn't stop it from being a badly executed one. Hoping now that the remaining episodes make up for it. __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners Last edited by Haak; 2020-07-21 at 15:13.

2020-07-21, 20:00	Link #51
BWTraveller Born to ship Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Texas	I said it before, and I'll say it again. Spoiler: Some aspects of the later portion fit a lot better with the non-neurotypical rather than races. Sure, different ethnic groups sometimes have some tendency to vulnerability to certain diseases and conditions, but not many and nothing mental or behavioral. That said, I'm not going to condemn the series just because it didn't go all real all the way through. And it ends up presenting a rather difficult question, one which, again, is more relatable as a question asked to people with mental "disabilities": if there were a "cure", and you could become a "normal" "human", what then? Would pursuing such a "cure" be moral? Would it be right or wrong to change something fundamental to who and what you are? Or to make someone change because they'll die otherwise? Again, this hits pretty close to home as an Aspie. My childhood was not a pleasant one, on many levels, and a great deal of the bullying and ostracization and harassment was over the way I was just "different" from other kids. Being a complete neurotypical would mean altering something fundamental to who I am, but it would also mean ending a lot of bad things. I don't think I'd go that route, but I can certainly see people struggling with the question. As for the history, Spoiler: You're certainly right about the lack of documentation about the condition. They've been through all kinds of persecution, so people should have changed before. Only explanation I can see for that is if people turning into monsters and killing indiscriminately caused enough stress to turn many if not all others in the area, resulting in any occurrence ending in a "mysterious disappearance" of the villages in question. As for why Shirou didn't remember, that I don't find so hard to buy. Amnesia itself isn't common, but people who go through extreme trauma certainly can and do block memories to cope. And the matter of why the people who cleaned up didn't spread the word, I could imagine a few reasons. Maybe the people in question didn't actually hate beastmen and didn't want them to be persecuted or didn't want to start a panic. Maybe they thought they could use this somehow. There are possibilities, at least. But either way, I honestly don't see Michiru as any more "dumb" than before, especially since she's still only 18, which despite the law is frankly still a kid. And Shirou's response may be understandable depending on what is and isn't truth.

2020-07-14, 15:16	Link #43
BWTraveller Born to ship Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Texas	I wouldn't really call it an axe to grind. I'm just sick and tired of watching the world attacking itself, everyone hating everyone and saying and doing things that only make the hatred grow. I feel like there are better ways to get institutions to put more effort into helping than telling them they're all bigots even if they don't know it. As I said in my previous post, I just want to go back to a world that isn't on fire, filled with bastards attacking others just because their skin's a little darker and people tearing down statues without stopping to check whether the guy was a slave-owning Confederate general or an abolitionist who died fighting for freedom for all.

2020-07-24, 10:08	Link #52
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Spoiler for Episode 11: A definite improvement over the previous episode. So it turns out the whole Nirvasyl syndrome thing is real (with all the implications attached), but overall I’d say the episode made some strong points in spite of it. At first I was confused as to why Michiru would point a gun at Shirou and then of all things start apologizing to him about how she should have listened to him a bit more but then it dawned on me that a chief message appeared to be emerging from this episode (and from the past episodes): the need social policies and opinions to be actually based on listening and engaging with the group in question instead of forming policies unilaterally that will inevitably end up totally out of touch with reality and cause more harm than good. We actually saw this in two distinct occasions in the previous episode. Alan claims he has a eugenics solution for beastmen that will become mandatory and his argument appears convincing but Shirou angrily rejects him on the grounds that it is not for him (a human) to decide such a thing unilaterally. Then the Mayor appeals to the Prime Minister to dismantle Anima City completely without bothering to seek any kind of democratic mandate among her own people. She chose not the trust her own people and the story promptly shits on her for it by having her back-stabbed by the Prime Minister. We even saw a similar theme running in previous episodes with the Albatross and the girl who nearly accidentally killed Dolphin Girl by putting her in a water tank out of ignorance. And finally we see this episode just how bad things can go. At the end of the day when you don’t wish to seek bilateral decision making, you open the door up for more nefarious people to hijack and take control of the situation and that’s exactly what we saw with Alan and cult. It’s now revealed that there were never any good intentions behind the cult: It was all just a ruse to cause the maximum amount of psychological damage as possible and it was done so because nefarious people were able to infiltrate on a systematic level and were able to carry out their plan successfully thanks to the support of well-intentioned Useful Idiots like Nazuna (and to a lesser extent Michiru) Speaking of Nazuna I’m not really sure how self-aware the story is when it comes to her. I wonder if she is going to have any self-reflection on the damage she’s had a hand in causing out of sheer ignorance and whether Michiru will rethink how to handle Useful Idiots like her moving forward. Because for all intents and purposes, Michiru tried the reconciliatory approach and…well…look how that turned out. I mean damn, if I could’ve written it I don’t think I could’ve been that harsh. Michiru did manage to get Nazuna to not make the reveal herself but ironically that lead to events that now make Nazuna look even worse than if she’d confessed herself. What a shambles. And on another level, the episode also makes a pointed commentary on how people in power will use bad faith and cynical actions to sow discord so that they can justify a heavy handed “solution” like what we’ve seen here with the robots and violence. A rather potent reminder for today’s world. But whilst I appreciate all this, I still can’t really get behind the need for the story to ruin its characters the way it has. Okay, ruin I a bit much but I really really liked Michiru (and all the other characters) and these last few episodes have really taken them down a peg and not in a good way. I still like them overall but to have something go from excellent to just good is a bit of bummer. Last episode remaining __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners Last edited by Haak; 2020-07-24 at 11:52. Reason: Typo

2020-07-24, 10:55	Link #53
BWTraveller Born to ship Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Texas	While I agree with much of what you said, I'd again have to disagree about the show changing or "ruining" the characters. It felt like a fairly believable flow to me, with character flaws being shown on and off throughout now coming to a head in a dangerous way. They were always the way they are now in my opinion, it's just things weren't this bad before and the scale of a situation can change how a person looks. A person could be a fairly good individual and do some really good work when things are calm and overall prosperous, but put them in a situation where everything's hitting the fan, and suddenly it's a lot harder to get out of any slip-ups and they quickly go from a good person to an absolute moron (just so no one misunderstands me, I am NOT talking about any current political figures). And honestly, I do kind of wish they'd come up with a way to make a big climactic ending without twisting things so that mental conditions were involved as well, even if that side hits a bit deeper for me. It does muddy the waters in a way.

2020-07-24, 11:26	Link #54
Ghostfriendly Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	Depicting victims of racism and genocide as stupid, selfish and congenitally violent (most of the beastmen) makes for a poor story. The ideas that a persecuted minority in a ghetto are violent because of their DNA, not their persecution, and that 'putting different groups together always leads to violence' aren't just from the anime that Enoch Powell would make; it robs everyone outside the lead characters of the agency that would make them more than literal animals in a ghetto. Is that a good thing to portray about even a fictional persecuted minority? Blaming the beastmen's problems on genetic roid-rage (this kind of biological determinism is the bedrock of racism) defeats the effort the series does make to criticise big pharma and racism, as well as what could have been a sensible message that multiculturalism is not always easy or painless (because of cultural and historic differences, not racial ones). A hint of genocide denial was also very unwelcome, though I'm going to be generous and say that we can infer Alan was lying about the fate of Nirvasyl. Humans with bows, armour, military tactic and a numerical advantage absolutely could have massacred beastmen, even without the help of a three-headed wolf monster. Still, I thought the lead characters were likable, with their dramas and personalities quite decently constructed. Michiru was certainly the bumbling and lovable shapeshifter of a Tanuki girl we badly needed, after that hopeless degraded victim of Stockholm Syndrome in Shield Hero. The Mink Girl and Molerat Mayor were good characters with good designs as well, and I liked the animation.

2020-07-27, 11:29	Link #57
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Spoiler for Finale: YouTube https://youtu.be/EdQJVGZmp-E Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? Well that was just a hot mess really. Far too much happening in one episode to fully register what was going on: Felt more like I was watching a summary of events than a properly paced finale. So it turns out the Nirvasyl syndrome can be solved through less drastic serum transfusions and Wolf-Jesus howls but the whole Nirvasyl syndrome thing just felt like such a last minute problem to begin with that I found it hard to care now. Also kind of weird how Shirou makes all the beastmen howl regardless of whether they're in the Canid family or not. The show had another big twist left up it's sleeve though i'm not really sure what to make of it: Turns out Alan was a Beastman all along. And not just a Beastman but a "pure" Beastman that can control humans? Don't really see the point of something like that but then again, I didn't see much point in Shirou being Wolf-Jesus either. Alan seems to espouse some rather out dated Master race shit. I guess if I were to take my previous speculation, then the logical conclusion would be that Alan is an illustration of how the systemic racism of today is at its core still deeply based on centuries old racism? It's not an interpretation I'm all that confident of but that's the best I can think of. And of course Shirou defeats him because he obviously would. The only other possible interpretation I'm seeing here is whenever you see a rich racist fascist, beat the living shit out them? I guess I'll keep that in mind. In the end I'm struggling to understand what exactly the show was trying to say. Michiru did have a moment where she announced in rather dramatic fashion about how she'll decide her own identity but it's not like eugenics is a serious threat to any race in this current age so it all pretty much feels exactly like the kind of Fantastic Aesop, I feared it would wind up falling into. I guess maybe this message has a bit more merit in issues of multiculturalism vs integration, in LGBTQ issues and with multiracial identities but only one of those issues was actually touched upon previously (and even then only briefly and not related to Michiru) and I feel that lumping all these different individually complex issues together is going to produce more confusion than any substantial insight. The Nazuna equation was handled rather awkwardly as well: She managed to regain her reputation rather easily (so much for Beastmen having deep prejudices) and the story seems to be giving her a pass on the whole deception thing so there you go. Overall, I feel rather conflicted about the show. It started off strong but I felt like it lost the plot when it started getting a bit too fantastical. Still a good story but could've been better. __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners Last edited by Haak; 2020-07-27 at 12:56.

2020-07-27, 15:04	Link #58
BWTraveller Born to ship Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Texas	Well, as I'd said before, I think one message they might be trying to convey is: it's complicated. There are lots of motivations, lots of prejudices, lots of causes and effects and issues, and writing people off as criminals or bad people is not really getting the whole picture. Nazuna is a great example there I think. Yes, she did deceive the people, but she did it because she had been thoroughly deceived herself and completely believed that given the circumstances the deception was the most effective, if not the only substantially effective, way she could help keep things from exploding. When she finally realized that she'd been duped and saw the scale of the chaos caused by her mistake, she sought to go out and help. Perhaps she continued to hold some selfish desires as well, some deep-rooted desire for documentation of her efforts to bring about fame and fortune, but that is not the main goal. And this lack of understanding itself makes it hard for Michiru to hate her or completely condemn her even as she disagrees with what she's doing, because she knows that Nazuna's doing what she earnestly believes will help save lives and she can't entirely deny (at first) that lives may indeed be saved. If anything, I think that's one of the biggest messages: the need to seriously look at one another, to get to know each other as different peoples, and as different people. Not properly understanding another people and the complex issues they're dealing with can result in one's words or actions being offensive or even harmful, and not properly seeing the person him/herself can equally harm. Again, it's complex and one needs to appreciate that complexity.