2013-03-18, 21:19 | Link #12881 | |||
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... I'd respond to the rest, but we're going around in circles and you seem particularly determined to refrain from acknowledging any of the legitimate points I've made that, at the very least, contradict the "objectivity" you so arrogantly claim can solely be found in your interpretations of previous events. It's just an exercise in futility at this point, particularly in regards to your perception of Kumagawa's entire character, and, let's face it, this argument has been driven into the ground. |
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2013-03-18, 21:40 | Link #12882 |
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Let me explain something simply for you. "Objectivity" is based on evidence. It is not based on arrogance. Your refusal to engage in actual evidence in the form of quotations from the source material is the only reason I've ignored your arguments. Your inability to provide evidence in support of your arguments is why your opinion is fully worth dismissing.
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2013-03-18, 22:05 | Link #12884 |
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The beginning of this arc seems to have established that possibility, though I'd greatly prefer a focus on Zenkichi's development, rather than hers. On the likelihood that it does focus largely on her though, that would definitely be the most compelling direction for the story to take.
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2013-03-19, 03:36 | Link #12885 | |
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2013-03-19, 04:18 | Link #12886 | |
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2013-03-19, 05:28 | Link #12887 |
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Evidence is constantly being interpreted differently, so I think this is the reason why we're having such a disconnect here. What is considered "demonstrably proven" isn't quite universal, and that's precisely why we have these discussions.
Sol I respect your analyses but there is an air of arrogance to them(like evidence "obviously" or "logically" leads to this). Medaka Box has been a subject of interpretation and while I wouldn't want to discourage objective interpretation per se, on the other hand claiming to do that does carry that responsibility and stigma. I don't want to drag him into the discussion but Wolfenstein has a habit of doing this too(In my opinion....but my opinion happens to be shared by a bunch of people). For example in the election, some may interpret Medaka's defeat as confirmation that she was completely wrong, but Zenkichi states that it's more about Medaka reaffirming her priorities and discovering more things. But if in her journey, "if she comes to the same conclusion that she was born to help others, then that's alright too". Medaka was misguided in that she was mainly following a two year old's offhand phrase, but that doesn't necessarily make the act wrong. I think part of the problem is that we're convinced that there's a specific way for characters to progress(either on textual or personal reasons). Perhaps it's because I'm resigned to it, but I'm not opposed to Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship much anymore, and I think development can come more from redefining it rather than completely separation. Yes this recent chapter could mean they're splitting up for good, or it can mean that they're pursuing their own dreams without necessarily breaking off their relationship. As for Kumagawa and the open idea of having a relationship, I'm honestly not sure what that would bring(or what the point would be). Is it because he's a more "worthy partner"? Also the interpretation of Kumagawa becoming more selfish to obtain victory, I'm not sure what you mean, wouldn't that be somewhat of a regression? While I can recall the beginning of the Shiranui Arc that Medaka questioned whether he lost his edge for victory, I can also think of the Naked Apron Alliance, which while I did not side with still had the intention of making everyone happy. So his victory becomes less of "I have a completely selfish, unfettered, but relatable determination to defeat the protagonists, to making people happy through his warped ways and myself as well. Kumagawa may not have achieved a victory during that arc, but he still became a lot happier. Or perhaps it's something that doesn't have to mutually exclusive. His victory over Medaka in 185 was something which both seemed pretty triumphant over. His drive hasn't changed, but perhaps he's tempered it to something different. Last edited by DawnEmperor; 2013-03-19 at 07:33. |
2013-03-19, 07:32 | Link #12888 |
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You know, it's funny to see Sol try to convince people that he's not this hypocritically arrogant guy who equates his interpretation to "Nisio’s literary self-worth", when all his efforts just result in the exact opposite.
At least learn something from Zigs; he outright stated that he's giving you one of innumerable possible interpretations of this manga, in contrast to equating your own to the "end-all, be-all" of Medaka Box-related opinions.
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2013-03-19, 08:24 | Link #12889 | |
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So seriously don't throw stones in glass houses. You didn't use further referencing as evidence to prove your argument, you simply made an interpretation of some initial quotes at the beginning without evidencing your interpretation of said quotes with more evidence. It's like quoting "fire is warm", and making an arguement about how fire represents hell without furthering referencing that would imply fire represents hell. Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2013-03-19 at 08:40. |
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2013-03-19, 12:17 | Link #12890 | ||||
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Your example is fine, but that doesn't mean there's really any ambiguity. Like you said, what was wrong about Medaka's former goal was her personal approach to it, not necessarily the goal itself or even the outcome of her previous actions. If there was left any ambiguity in my claims as related to Medaka's character or motivations, anybody could (and still can) bring them up specifically. Quote:
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With regards to Kumagawa's selfishness, it's not a regression if Kumagawa actually wins. As you mentioned during the Not Equals arc Kumagawa acted purely for the sake of others via the Naked Apron Alliance--this is precisely the 'lost edge' Medaka was talking about. However, why do you think Kumagawa became a 'selfless' ally of others in the first place? In the end it was because he was still in despair over obtaining his personal victory, and merely satisfied/distracted himself with the happiness of others. Though Kumagawa showed and gained a lot of happiness throughout the Treasure Hunt arc and later with Tachiarai from the Election Management Committee, if you recall from the battle with the Beautification Committee chairwoman all of that was a mere surface satisfaction when in reality Kumagawa was still "drowning below the surface". Certainly, Kumagawa's ability to find happiness through fighting for others was a positive development for him. It's what granted him any hope after his reformation at all. However, a normal human cannot ultimately live simply fighting for others, let alone a Minus. Kumagawa's insistence through his battles that he still couldn't win, as well as Ajimu's assurance to Kumagawa that he could win, were all about the restoration of his personal ambitions (although they certainly can reside side-by-side with Kumagawa's capacity to fight for others). Quote:
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2013-03-19, 12:33 | Link #12892 |
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@Sol Falling --
Reviewed your verbage, disagree. Not moving somewhere to follow someone, finding and pursuing your own path and growing as a person does not necessarily mean your relationship is over. You can still be sad for the parting, sad for the life stage you are entering and sad that you won't share this stage of your life together -- but none of the aforementioned necessarily takes away from the feelings people have for each other, their shared experiences nor their desire to spend their lives together in the future. I am not arguing that they are definitely still together, but simply stating that you believe your perspective is objective does not make it so, based on the premise set out by the written works we are both viewing I believe your presumption is more of a logical stretch than Zen x Medaka which is that status quo. Therefore the burden of proof is on your position and the threshold does not appear to have been met. I would add that you laboriously reference source material, but such references that you view as being derived from logical conclusions appear in fact to someone like me who is looking at all of this with fresh eyes to actually be logical stretches. That all said, I am not here to pick on you, everyone that has gotten a tad heated from this discussion should take a step back and realize that you all look like: "Fiction relationships is seeeeerious business!!!!"
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2013-03-19, 13:10 | Link #12893 | |||
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Until we get more chapters, I'm not completely sure whether it's a true departure. It seems more to be an end to the "always following around" or always "catching up". Quote:
If you wouldn't mind(I'm sure you might've stated it before), why does Medaka and Kumagawa interest you though? I can understand interest in them individually, and their relationship was a pretty big crux of the series, but getting together is something which I don't usually hear from fans of either character. Obviously they have clear parallels as former archenemies; both are powerful enough to achieve a lot, but only one really consistently succeeds, or thinks they succeed. Sheer determination? I honestly am not understanding this being evidenced in the manga. Quote:
Well what is a normal human? Medaka of course has demonstrated many "inhuman" behaviors, but does our mindset merely have to change in order to fit how she acts? Thinking back to a series like Kenshin, I recall that Kenshin's reason for fighting intially was as a death seeker, and that he had no will to live, only to help people. Only when he realized how many people cared about him did he realize truly how to atone. So for me, I would agree that those ambitions would be side by side. In other words realizing that making people happy doesn't come at his expense. So if you're looking at this aspect of making people happy, i can somewhat see where you get the Medaka and Kumagawa relationship from. Somewhat. |
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2013-03-19, 14:39 | Link #12894 | ||
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The meta-narrative status quo of readers believing Medaka and Zenkichi will still end up together remains unchanged. That's fine, there's nothing yet directly contradicting it. My point thus far has only been that there is similarly zero in-story evidence supporting it. Medaka and Zenkichi's relationship is presently at a complete blank. Therefore them not getting back together is just as likely, and the only differentiating factor people can base their predictions on is whether they believe Nishio has any attachment to making the pairing happen. Quote:
There is a great deal of weight to Kumagawa's feelings for Medaka (and at times, Medaka's feelings for Kumagawa in return; their joy of finally arriving at the battle they had waited 300,000,000 years for remains one of the most memorable aspects for me of the climax of the Minus arc). Having lost to Medaka then, assimilated into the Student Council, being reduced to just another one of Medaka's endless friends/enemies, leaves those feelings unresolved. Initially you could have just assumed that Kumagawa buried them quietly, offscreen, embracing his new personality and forgetting that those developments in the Minus Arc ever happened. This was my initial attitude as well. However, the persistent resurfacing of Kumagawa's romantic emotions for Medaka show that this is not the case. In the end, nearly all (actually, pretty much all) of Kumagawa's moments of being 'real' (dropping the brackets) after the end of the Minus arc still have to do with Medaka (whether saying he would beat her, that she would return to him, or 'achieving' his first victory). So you can clearly see that Medaka was and still is necessary to the resolution of Kumagawa's arc. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-19 at 15:27. |
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2013-03-19, 15:34 | Link #12895 | |
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Like I said don't throw stones in glass houses you came off as hypocritical, if you don't like people calling you out on your lack of referenced evidence don't do it to other people. Spoiler for 187:
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2013-03-19, 15:41 | Link #12896 | |
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2013-03-19, 15:41 | Link #12897 |
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That is precisely the part I'm saying you are not being objective. You start from the presumption they are either 1) no longer together or 2) will no longer be together. That is not yet clear -- therefore for the status quo to be overturned, the burden of proof generally needs to be overwhelming, which in this case thus far it is not.
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2013-03-19, 15:46 | Link #12898 | |
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I will say this though look at your posts in the page before last (they are quite long). Now count how many directly referenced quotations to the story in discussion were included in those post. Yeah... |
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2013-03-19, 15:52 | Link #12899 | |
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2013-03-19, 15:58 | Link #12900 | |
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From a 3rd party perspective, purely looking at the source material, that may or may not necessarily be the case. Therefore as I said previously, the burden of proof, is on you -- that the status quo (as I stated previously) be overturned. And the funny thing is? You can't prove it yet -- why not? Because with only one or two chapters available since her return there is actually no empirical evidence. It is all conjecture at this point. It is abundantly clear therefore that you are not being objective.
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action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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