Toradora! Generic discussion thread

[BetoJR]

Changes to original material don't really spell out a fiery death at the hands of fans. Stuff like Zero no Tsukaima and Shakugan no Shana actually sold quite well, no?
I mean, even if some people cry bloody murder at the adaptations...

[Baka Ronin]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Changes to original material don't really spell out a fiery death at the hands of fans. Stuff like Zero no Tsukaima and Shakugan no Shana actually sold quite well, no?
I mean, even if some people cry bloody murder at the adaptations...

Thanks for not being a rabid purist. It is appreciated

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Baka Ronin

You guys missed my point. You're all acting like you KNOW 100% what the outcome is when there is no way as of yet to know for certain. the rest is gravy.

We don't know 100% what the outcome will be, but if the anime does follow the novels, I'll be pleased. If not, I'll play the angry fanboy and denounce this series. LOUDLY.

Because nothing JC Staff comes up with could beat what the novels have done.

Originally Posted by Baka Ronin

Who says that changing it makes it crappy? that's another assumption you've made there that has no basis in fact. There could be a surprise ending that no one expects that's just fantastic to watch.

Won't happen. It's not a 100% certainty, but it won't happen.

Most anime studios are NOT GOOD at coming up with original work. As Vexx keeps saying, if they were, they'd be novel and manga writers themselves.

Not that there aren't fantastic original animated works, or fantastic adaptations that deviate strongly from the source (FMA comes to mind), but in general, adapted works that deviate from the source material tend to be incredibly bad.

It's not exactly "playing Nostradamus", it's just... what's the word... I can't think of it... looking back at history and making predictions based on how past works have turned out?

I'm thinking of Hari Seldon's "psychohistory" for some reason, but...


Anyway, my biggest problem with major changes in adaptations is that I often can't see WHY they change some things.

The usual reason given is "well that wouldnt work on tv durr" but that never makes sense. WHY would some things not work on television? I mean, I can understand if it's ecchi content or something like that (like Ryuuji's black nipples, heh) but often enough, it isn't...

It's like adaptations are some overglorified form of fanfiction, and the director and scriptwriter are imposing their vision how they think the work should have played out instead of how it actually did. This wouldn't be a problem if they could write as well and in the same way as the original author, but as I said, very often, they can't.

See, adaptations aren't only accountable to their fans or sponsors, but the story itself. If that makes sense.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Changes to original material don't really spell out a fiery death at the hands of fans. Stuff like Zero no Tsukaima and Shakugan no Shana actually sold quite well, no?
I mean, even if some people cry bloody murder at the adaptations...

Sales don't exactly mean an adaptation is GOOD, in a literary sense, either. Someone mentioned Eva... even as a fan, I'd be the first to admit that the entire show prior to, um, whatever episode the Dirac Sea Angel appeared in, sucked a lot. And Eva still has fantastic sales.

The first season of Shana was actually pretty good, despite JC Staff turning Yuji into a total wuss... I don't know how the second season sales went, but I gotta say that it sucked a lot more than the first did.

As for ZnT's sales... I have one thing to say: Smut. Smut. Smut smut smut.

Originally Posted by Baka Ronin

Thanks for not being a rabid purist. It is appreciated

I'm not even that much of a rabid purist. I've just seen too many good works ruined by bad decisions.

[Vexx]

Heh, then I suppose some would have been fine with Weasley being recast as a girl in the Potter films to jazz up the triangle? Only a purist would object after all...

That was semi-comedic in intent... obviously many changes work out fine (Elves at Helms Deep were a massive change but served to reinforce the echoes of the Elder Days, Arwen not being a useless putz in wartime, etc). But popular or well-loved books are popular or well-loved for a reason ... one should tread lightly in adapting them.

[wistfulloner]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

See, adaptations aren't only accountable to their fans or sponsors, but the story itself. If that makes sense.

Somehow, it makes quite a bit of sense. I would rather be producing an anime which is a masterpiece but has low recognition than make one which is enormously hyped but terrible.

I would also like to unravel the mystery of how a discussion of a relationship can morph into a full-blown duel for the capabilities of a studio

[Pellissier]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

I would also like to unravel the mystery of how a discussion of a relationship can morph into a full-blown duel for the capabilities of a studio

Perhaps the nervousness of not having an episode 14 to discuss this week may have something to do with that

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Baka Ronin

Who says that changing it makes it crappy? that's another assumption you've made there that has no basis in fact. There could be a surprise ending that no one expects that's just fantastic to watch. Stop playing Nostradamus and enjoy the show.

Who said that it will be so. You seriously need to start reading full posts. What I was saying is that in majority cases changes to the original changes do not bring show that much good as a rule. Doesn't mean that it will necessarily happen in the future but it has a rather big possibility. So big that most studios do not bring themselves to take really big turns and change only minor things. Like Toradora so far.

BetoJR, now go and check selling rates of the SnS and ZnT and compare each of the season and you will see them dropping lower and lower.

Remember that first seasons of SnS and ZnT were arguably good but then it started going down hill and is reflected in sales rates, though not in such big numbers as lets say Kimikiss.

And you have to be aware that hentai is always popular. Why do i mention it? Well because ZnT level of fanservice in two seasons increased incredibly and now it is not that far from the border that splits ecchi anime from simple hentai. You can watch the latest OVA of ZnT to see how close they are getting to that.

It shows that the studio is going the cheapest way to earn money. They still sell good because of perverts, but are they really of high quality. You can then easily suggest all studios drop animes and start doing hentai I can ensure you that a lot of them would feel increase in earnings, but would you really want that?

[BetoJR]

They are still making money. And that's what makes the studios thrive. Now, is it good? I'm not going anywhere near that can of worms. I just said that literary accuracy doesn't automatically equate fan recognition (in terms of sales). That was all.

[Darknemo2000]

And if you keep holding that position we can say that all studios should shift to making hentais. Hentai is always in the market and always makes you money.

The question is should they do that? Well if ZnT will progress the way it is going I would not be surprised to see it being into hentai actually,and if it would happen it would probably earn quite a bit of money.

I always say myself that money making is important but we should look at the price it comes as well. Turning anime into hentai, at least in my book, is not a very good idea, though financially it would probably be more profitable.

Which leads us back to if original path is really always that good even if financially could be good?

Lets say make the second part of Toradora into fullblown sex orgy, I am sure it would get its sales going, but would you be really happy about it? It would definately be original and it would definately make you money after all...

[wistfulloner]

Hell, if they turn Toradora! into a hentai I'll gouge out my eyes after I've slit my throat. If that happens, JC staff is gonna lose truckloads of down-to-earth fans who have been following the series faithfully only to have it turn into some pervert's paradise. Although that can certainly be remedied by the throngs of perverts who will start following the series, it's gonna lose them respect within the industry in the long run. I can imagine the author for the novel isn't going to be very pleased too. And when that happens, they lose money.

This might be one of the few times I'm agreeable with you Darknemo2000, but lets face it, money gouging isn't the best thing you can do in this industry.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

Although that can certainly be remedied by the throngs of perverts who will start following the series, it's gonna lose them respect within the industry in the long run.

And you think that what they are doing to ZnT earning them a lots of respect already?

This series is very close to hentai you know. While original has fanservice but it isn't as focused and has a lots of material in between. Such amount of fanservice do not earn much respect between your colleagues but you can understand JC Staff - ZnT is their working horse, that covers such financial failures as Kimikiss. ZnT is still reliable though probably all non-pervert fans dropped the series already. The ones that keep watching are either ecchi lovers (or hentai as well) or masochistic novel lovers (like me, lol). It is not getting good response but it still does well because all the fanservice that makes you ignore plotholes zero character development and almost non-existent plot. Would you like that happen to Torradora? It would not be hentai but lets say wearing bathing costumes made from sea-shells is a must, just like boob-jokes every 10 minutes and each girls bust increases in size with every episode, or Minori giving Taiga a wet lesbo kiss every 6 episodes (yuri is also considered fanservcice in such series, and Louise is kissed by a big part of female population in ZnT after all).

I don't think they would loose much if they do good fanservice quality though they would loose respect, but, hey they already are doing this with ZnT so why not to drop that in Toradora or Shana as well...

Luckily the director of Toradora does has respect for the original work and we can hope it would be so even if the pace is just silly. And luckily there probably wont be any second season for them to screw up.

[maxpepper]

No toradora for 2 weeks and it seems people are arguing just for the sake of arguing.
Are you really talking about toradora turning into a hentai? seriously?

salud amigos!

ps. the forum needs a "JC Staff Sucks" thread or something along those lines since the majority of threads have many posts talking about how the studio has messed up this and that anime.

[BetoJR]

maxpepper, I couldn't have said it better, myself. Really, it's arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Tyabann]

And that is the Internet in a nutshell. There's no escaping it.

[Vexx]

rats in a cage, all the toys are put away... and the food is short ...gnawgnawnibble...

[wistfulloner]

That's the way it goes, folks. Since there's nothing else more interesting to talk about, I can see no wrong with some opinion-sharing between members. No matter how ridiculous it gets, as long as it doesn't infringe forum rules.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by wistfulloner

That's the way it goes, folks. Since there's nothing else more interesting to talk about, I can see no wrong with some opinion-sharing between members. No matter how ridiculous it gets, as long as it doesn't infringe forum rules.

There is nothing wrong with a general opionion-sharing discussion, in my opinion. However, I don't think it belongs in the episode 13 discussion thread which should be dedicated to discussion of episode 13. Perhaps the Toradora Generic discussion thread would be a more appropriate place?

[Tyabann]

No one uses episode topics to discuss episodes. That'd be silly.

Besides, you can't control how discussions begin. They just do..

[k'2]

because if everybody used this topic to discuss the ep only it would'nt get this long

[Baka Ronin]

You guys are still being rabid purists. I find it very sad that you believe the studio is incapable of creating an alternate ending that is just as lovable and believable as the one in the novels. I also find it very sad that you would boycott the show just because of a different ending. Its pathetic really and only goes to show how closed your mind is. I find it difficult to believe that ratings and sales for the show would drop just because the ending is different than the novel. Do we really live in such a sad world that no one cares about new ideas related to old concepts? There is one thing I am certain of, it will not get turned into a hentai, at least not by this studio. Shame on anyone who brings that up. It cheapens the spirit of the story. In summary, It can be different, nothing is set in stone. Accept and and stop your rabid purist ranting please.