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Old 2017-03-27, 08:36   Link #421
BWTraveller
Azure Dragon reborn
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You really think one bad loss is the absolute worst that can happen to him. It's not. It's not even close.
I'm not stupid, I know far worse can happen. My point is that he's growing and has already grown quite a bit, t a sufficient extent that I find it far more doubtful that he'll quit than before the loss. At this point I think it'd take something really, REALLY big to make him consider quitting. Shogi isn't his whole world anymore, and somehow as it ceased to be the whole of his world it became a more important aspect of his world at the same time, and I'd be interested to know just what sort of things you think would really be bad enough that he'd quit at this point.
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Old 2017-03-27, 15:57   Link #422
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
I'm not stupid, I know far worse can happen. My point is that he's growing and has already grown quite a bit, t a sufficient extent that I find it far more doubtful that he'll quit than before the loss. At this point I think it'd take something really, REALLY big to make him consider quitting. Shogi isn't his whole world anymore, and somehow as it ceased to be the whole of his world it became a more important aspect of his world at the same time, and I'd be interested to know just what sort of things you think would really be bad enough that he'd quit at this point.
On the contrary, I think that he started the series thinking it was shogi or starve. Of money and/or social interaction. So he'd hang on to shogi, no matter how painful or disgraceful it was.

And he's growing away from that. He's not there yet, but give him time. He's also learning to appreciate shogi, so I see where you come from, but in the hypothesis shogi becomes painful again, the loss of motivation from the first point won't be compensated for by the gain from the second.

As for the difficulties that may lie in the future, in no particular order:
- dealing with A-class monsters more and more. He said Shimada was a monster himself for dealing with those guys and just getting a stomach ache. That's his future, if he keeps progressing.
- stagnating for years and years.
- getting a demotion point.
- actually getting demoted.
- failing to get a title match on the last step.
- losing a title match.
- losing a title. (Especially if it's his only title.)

They're not all likely to happen in, say, the next twenty years. But he's almost certain to face one or two of them in that time.

I'm reminded of a scene in Hajime no Ippo where Aoki explained that to get back into the ring after a loss, one had to make excuses for the loss. "I underestimated my opponent", "I messed up my weight control", something like that.
Spoiler for his excuse?:

Embarrassing as it may have been, it's super easy to make excuses for Rei losing against Shimada. That's why I don't think that loss was a real test of his mettle.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2017-03-27 at 17:14.
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Old 2017-03-27, 17:11   Link #423
BWTraveller
Azure Dragon reborn
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
On the contrary, I think that he started the series thinking it was shogi or starve. Of money and/or social interaction. So he'd hang on to shogi, no matter how painful or disgraceful it was.

And he's growing away from that. He's not there yet, but give him time. He's also learning to appreciate shogi, so I see where you come from, but in the hypothesis shogi becomes painful again, the loss of motivation from the first point won't be compensated for by the gain from the second.

As for the difficulties that may lie in the future, in no particular order:
- dealing with A-class monsters more and more. He said Shimada was a monster himself for dealing with those guys and just getting a stomach ache. That's his future, if he keeps progressing.
- stagnating for years and years.
- getting a demotion point.
- actually getting demoted.
- failing to get a title on the last step.
- losing a title match.
- losing a title. (Especially if it's his only title.)

They're not all likely to happen in, say, the next twenty years. But he's almost certain to face one or two of them in that time.

I'm reminded of a scene in Hajime no Ippo where Aoki explained that to get back into the ring after a loss, one had to make excuses for the loss. "I underestimated my opponent", "I messed up my weight control", something like that.
Spoiler for his excuse?:

Embarrassing as it may have been, it's super easy to make excuses for Rei losing against Shimada. That's why I don't think that loss was a real test of his mettle.
But he didn't make excuses. He's not Hajime. You seem to want to define the struggle he went through at that time as pain over being defeated. But take another look, and the defeat wasn't what really crushed him. It was the fact that he completely underestimated his opponent and went in there completely unprepared. That's not to say he would've won, he knew when he looked at that board that his chances of winning were slim, but instead of fighting hard and actually facing his opponent, he treated him as an annoying prelude to Gotou and as a result wound up producing something utterly pathetic and humiliating. And he didn't make excuses. He simply recognized that his approach transformed the situation into the most mortifying situation he could imagine.

Anyway, I doubt being faced with more Class A opponents would break him. He now has a healthy respect for the class and, while he still puts all his effort into beating them, he has a healthy recognition of the fact that he may wind up failing to do anything but pick up a few moves and ideas to help grow. This isn't making "excuses"; recognizing that your opponent was stronger and therefore you weren't strong enough isn't an excuse.

If Rei were still alone, I could honestly imagine the other things you mentioned convincing him to drop out. But honestly, have you been paying attention at all? One of the big differences is that he ISN'T alone anymore. Up until very recently, shogi was a way to continue existing and a device to allow him to have brief token interaction with people, never enough to develop anything meaningful but still better than nothing. But now he is surrounded by people who actually look at him and know him. Some see him as a friend and rival, others as an interesting junior, or as an enemy. But they look at him and they continue to look at him because he matters to them. If he hits a slump, they'll be there at his side, not comforting him and saying it's alright, but working through his every loss and figuring out where he went wrong and how not to go wrong again. And they'll do this both because they want him there fighting alongside them and because they want to understand and gain insight from his games as well. His situation, his character, just about everything is far different from what it was at episode 1, and I doubt that he'd fall from the things you mentioned or be allowed to fall, just like I seriously doubt he'd go and make excuses for himself.
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Old 2017-03-27, 17:29   Link #424
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
But he didn't make excuses. He's not Hajime.
And it's not boxing, so he'll lose a great many more games.

Quote:
You seem to want to define the struggle he went through at that time as pain over being defeated. But take another look, and the defeat wasn't what really crushed him. It was the fact that he completely underestimated his opponent and went in there completely unprepared. That's not to say he would've won, he knew when he looked at that board that his chances of winning were slim, but instead of fighting hard and actually facing his opponent, he treated him as an annoying prelude to Gotou and as a result wound up producing something utterly pathetic and humiliating. And he didn't make excuses. He simply recognized that his approach transformed the situation into the most mortifying situation he could imagine.
"Making excuses" is the difference in outlook between "I stumbled, but I'll do better in the future" and "Yep, this is all I'm worth." It's not really about the excuses themselves. It's just how Aoki expressed it.

Quote:
Anyway, I doubt being faced with more Class A opponents would break him. He now has a healthy respect for the class and, while he still puts all his effort into beating them, he has a healthy recognition of the fact that he may wind up failing to do anything but pick up a few moves and ideas to help grow.
It wasn't really about victory or defeat. Just talking to Fujimoto's exhausting, for someone like Rei.

Quote:
This isn't making "excuses"; recognizing that your opponent was stronger and therefore you weren't strong enough isn't an excuse.

If Rei were still alone, I could honestly imagine the other things you mentioned convincing him to drop out. But honestly, have you been paying attention at all? One of the big differences is that he ISN'T alone anymore. Up until very recently, shogi was a way to continue existing and a device to allow him to have brief token interaction with people, never enough to develop anything meaningful but still better than nothing. But now he is surrounded by people who actually look at him and know him. Some see him as a friend and rival, others as an interesting junior, or as an enemy. But they look at him and they continue to look at him because he matters to them. If he hits a slump, they'll be there at his side, not comforting him and saying it's alright, but working through his every loss and figuring out where he went wrong and how not to go wrong again. And they'll do this both because they want him there fighting alongside them and because they want to understand and gain insight from his games as well. His situation, his character, just about everything is far different from what it was at episode 1, and I doubt that he'd fall from the things you mentioned or be allowed to fall, just like I seriously doubt he'd go and make excuses for himself.
- You think he's still trapped by Shogi. That almost all his friendships depend on him being a pro player. That he has no escape. And for now, you're not wrong, but that'll change. At least, I hope so.
- You forget Kouda's wisdom. A pro must find in himself the strength to carry on, past the difficulties of that life.
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Old 2017-03-27, 18:20   Link #425
BWTraveller
Azure Dragon reborn
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And it's not boxing, so he'll lose a great many more games.


"Making excuses" is the difference in outlook between "I stumbled, but I'll do better in the future" and "Yep, this is all I'm worth." It's not really about the excuses themselves. It's just how Aoki expressed it.


It wasn't really about victory or defeat. Just talking to Fujimoto's exhausting, for someone like Rei.



- You think he's still trapped by Shogi. That almost all his friendships depend on him being a pro player. That he has no escape. And for now, you're not wrong, but that'll change. At least, I hope so.
- You forget Kouda's wisdom. A pro must find in himself the strength to carry on, past the difficulties of that life.
I do not think he's trapped. How many times do I have to say it? Shogi is a big part of his world still and he probably can't see himself walking another path, but that doesn't mean he's trapped or despaired to it. Like with "excuses", it's a matter of perspective. There are plenty of people who can't really see themselves doing something else who at the same time love doing what they're doing and dream of becoming better at it. He's not quite to that point yet, but he's on his way and most certainly far from the boy trapped with no way out and nothing available for him besides the game. And my point with all his friends wasn't that he lacks friends outside of shogi (and he has good friends outside shogi; he's not the type to make tons of friends anyway), but that if he is hurting or afraid or struggling he has people that want to help, and not just to comfort but to actually help him look forward and keep walking. He doesn't really have that many friends inside the shogi world either BTW. He has Smith, Shimada and Nikaido. And then he has a lot of people who aren't at the level of friends but still walk the same path as him and respect him. But his number of real friends inside and outside shogi isn't really all that different.

As far as his foster father's "wisdom", whether this is meant to be true wisdom or the foolish excuse he used to never help his son is something I'm not too sure of. But even if it is meant to be a cold truth, it doesn't mean that friends, family, companionship, rivalry, and other manner of relationship can't be a part of what it is inside that you find to help you move on. Your love for your friends and family, your commitment to face your rival, your desire to pursue your ultimate objective, these are all personal, and all are great sources of strength for some people. And in that sense, his friends pursuing him, not as comforters or a pep squad but as friends who want to look with him at the bad situations and find a path with him, aren't necessarily a bad thing. And again, the way it was presented I have my doubts that it was meant as "words of wisdom" so much as "idiot father who doesn't know how to raise or teach kids".
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Old 2017-03-28, 00:44   Link #426
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
And again, the way it was presented I have my doubts that it was meant as "words of wisdom" so much as "idiot father who doesn't know how to raise or teach kids".
I'm going to say "both". It's no way to raise children. But it is how pros live.
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Old 2017-04-07, 02:41   Link #427
Marcus H.
Close Quarters Cuisine
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
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Bump of Chicken - ANSWER
Sangatsu no Lion video from the BUMP OF CHICKEN official Youtube channel

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Summer 2017: Isekai Shokudou (4/1c), New Game S2 (1/12), Vatican Kiseki Chousa-kan (4/12) and Owarimonogatari S2 (Aug12).
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Old 2017-04-07, 06:37   Link #428
BWTraveller
Azure Dragon reborn
 
 
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Bump of Chicken - ANSWER
Sangatsu no Lion video from the BUMP OF CHICKEN official Youtube channel

Well, they certainly like Hina as much as I do .
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Old 2017-04-07, 07:38   Link #429
Ulin
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Well, they certainly like Hina as much as I do .
Who doesn't like Hina?
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Old 2017-04-07, 08:27   Link #430
Kanon
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Hina is a miracle of the universe. As are her sisters.
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