Toaru Majustu no Index III Anime - Speculation for Novel Readers

[OH&S]

How well does the Index anime adapt the light novels?

This a discussion post that started in the Index III Episode 2 discussion thread.

I'm not completely blind to the difficulties of adapting a novel or LN to a visual medium like a movie or in this case, an anime. I am perfectly aware of all the reasons as to why Railgun is a superior anime adaptation to the Index anime: because it is far easier to adapt a manga than it is a LN. In adapting a manga, it is very likely that all the story detail and dialogue conveyed will be carried over. This is impossible for a LN because it is full of exposition; and Index is a series which relies on it more so than other series to flesh out its world and tell its story.

So let’s acknowledge the fact that we would never get a 1-1 adaptation; and some information would inevitably not carry over into the anime.

But there are still some rather puzzling things I'm noticing when watching the anime this season. Someone on the anime staff is making some strange adaptation decisions.

Let's dissect Episode 1 for a bit:

First the filler parts: there's a mix of good and bad here. I understand why the filler was included: it has been a long enough time that we need to be reintroduced to the characters. No problem on my end for this rationale. My problem is the terrible execution. Here's the thing: there's nothing wrong with filler; it just needs to be interesting or enjoyable to watch.

The only good filler in the episode was the Railgun gang at the exhibit. The rest was almost shockingly boring.
The series has enough fanservice as it is and gradually tones down the in-your-face ecchi moments as the series continues. So whose dumb idea was it to open the episode with a showering Index scene!? Precious time was wasted and it makes the series look trashy.
The other part was the Index-Monaka meeting that took a significant portion of the episode. In theory, the idea of following Index around for a part of the episode was fine; but the content was boring with too much time devoted to it. The series should be having fun with these filler moments, so it was a missed opportunity to not have Index and Sphinx encounter Kazakiri Hyouka or Misaka Imouto and her cat (just throwing fun harmless ideas here). Index could then have met Monaka, had her admire Sphinx and buy her dessert without too much time wasted.

This might sound like it’s something minor and irrelevant but it’s what makes the difference between a good and a bad episode/series. One only needs to look at the competition to see how the same idea is handled. In SAO, the series reacquaints us with the main cast by having them all play a filler game with each other in a setting out of the norm from the novels. The staff made sure the audience was having fun with the filler material.

And that's just the filler, there were also some strange decisions in terms of how to adapt scenes from the novel.
--
Take the Fukiyose and Kamijou pitching scene.

In the LN, there's one fanservice scene followed by a full-on game between the two. Oyafune Suame realises she has forgotten about them and goes to check on them but gets hit in the head by a stray ball. Oyafune is characterised as someone obsessed with beauty (not done so in the anime) so she quickly returns to the teacher’s office to get herself cleaned up and begins to change clothes; which Kamijou walks in on (3 times) leading to fanservice slapstick.

In the anime, however, the pitching game is cut after the fanservice scene there by making the fanservice slapstick the punchline of Kamijou and Fukiyose's interaction rather than something in passing. The Oyafune scene is entirely separate to the pitching game as she just gets her clothes dirty. Kamijou walks in on her just cleaning herself (rather than changing) and results in the same slapstick moment.

Do you see what the underlying problem is? The anime's intent and purpose. The anime took away all the fun out of the scenes just to make the fanservice slapstick the punchline; even if it made absolutely no sense: Kamijou didn't even walk in on her changing so why did Oyafune have the same reaction!?
--
The Misaka-Kamijou scene was also modified for the worse. Putting aside the slapstick Biri-Biri moment (there's always a concession to be made), someone made a choice to ruin the seriousness of the scene by having Kamijou run off rather than have him stay there and listen to her concerns. Again, weak jokes before seriousness.
--
As for the rushed part at the end, they only needed to tweak the dialogue a bit and have Tsuchimikado mention he missed her vitals a bit and has called an ambulance and presto: no one will think Oyafune Monaka is dead. But because time was wasted earlier, this part was rushed.
--
So, what am I ultimately complaining about? It’s not that changes were made; it’s that they were made for no good reason and made the experience worse as a result. There are only small tweaks needed to fix the episode; and if they were more economical with the time they had, they could have also devoted a bit more time to the actual plot part of the story.

The adaptation choices that the staff made are so baffling, I don't know what they're thinking. I'm only asking for a little more care in the script so that things flow nicely and make sense and "competent" animation, so I don't complain about how static and rigid some scenes look.

[RDNexus]

Not that I'm defending the staff or anything, but what may seem apparent to us after watching an episode might've not seemed so to the staff when the episode's script was made and presented.
And more so if the author actually got some input on it. What people may consider the better version, the LNs, may no longer seem so to those folks out there.

Even I, as the amateur writer I still am, if I ever were to get a chance to get my story adapted to Anime, who knows if I, when looking at an episode's script, wouldn't feel something is amiss or simply not right and give an input that might make a scene or such seem slightly different from the Novel, at best.

As you said in the other post, one can't exactly expect a 1:1 adaptation from LNs to Anime, and even worse from Kamachi Novels, which tend to have tons of narrative and worldbuilding content. Nitpicking is alright, one has that right no matter how you got access to the content, but you can't forget this one train of thought.

[Natsurin]

As the amateur writer that I am as well, I'd feel relatively upset for my characters to be dumbed down by fanservice and the shitty humour that was the bane of the previous seasons. There's a point where Japanese studios need to realise panties don't mean quality writing, and having constant "accidental pervert = aggressive woman" moments gets annoying after a while.

Overall, a very good post, OH&S. You've pretty much put into words what's bothered me with that first episode.

[RDNexus]

Yeah, fanservice and cheap humor are a bane that should be dealt with more properly, but that's what we western audience may deem as needed.
The home audience may still throw money at those stories filled to the brim with such elements, giving strength to producers to keep it going...

[Chosen_Hero]

The filler fanservice and cheap humor is more a inherent problem in japanese media as whole than anything. And you are right OH&S, the Oyafune scene definitely made no sense and ruined the punchline by having two bad punchlines instead of the one.

As for the filler with Index showering, that sadly is something that has been happening since season 1 of the anime where too much focus is put on her for no reason other than probably someone on the team is a fan and wants her to have more scenes (sadly this kind of thing happens way too often in anime adaptations). As for the Mikoto scene, I won't get into it because it partly ties into the whole added Index filler conversation and I don't want to start a needlessly stupid argument because of it.

Some changes are to be expected, mostly to make it more fluid in the anime, we have to remember that as the series goes on the writing starts to shift into a style that is easier to translate into an anime, at least easier than in early to mid OT. The one thing that is always going to suffer is the exposition but as the series has evolved Kamachi has changed the way he does exposition and now incorporates it into the action instead of having Touma just sit or stand somewhere while Index spouts her exposition about how magic works. Heck, he now has a literal encyclopedia of magic on his shoulders and that says a lot.

We have to realize that many of the problems that we are seeing that are not just studio interference, but also in part the OT jank that we have forgotten due to how much we are use to the current way Kamachi writes.

[Kuroageha]

Isn't like the ecchi(fanservice meaning is too wide nowadays) went away with Kamachi writing NT, it's still there as usual.

[KiharaRonin]

It will never go away in series like this.

[OH&S]

I'm going to split the comments into fanservice related and non-fanservice related parts in my reply.

Originally Posted by xrick

Yeah, fanservice and cheap humor are a bane that should be dealt with more properly, but that's what we western audience may deem as needed.
The home audience may still throw money at those stories filled to the brim with such elements, giving strength to producers to keep it going...

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

The filler fanservice and cheap humor is more a inherent problem in japanese media as whole than anything.

I think that's such a cop out rationale though. While early Index was plagued with bad fanservice moments it wasn't the reason that the series persisted in popularity. And the heavy fanservice elements definitely died down after the Italy Arc (died down; not removed entirely). Someone on the staff had to have realized that fans weren't clamoring for a sequel because they wanted to see the minor fanservice scenes animated.

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

As for the filler with Index showering, that sadly is something that has been happening since season 1 of the anime where too much focus is put on her for no reason other than probably someone on the team is a fan and wants her to have more scenes (sadly this kind of thing happens way too often in anime adaptations).

Well it happened in the previous seasons because it happened in the novels. Can't really get angry at that. But my point still stands; good filler has fun with the characters. I just wish the staff recognized the paradigm shift that occurred when everyone switched uniforms.

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Isn't like the ecchi(fanservice meaning is too wide nowadays) went away with Kamachi writing NT, it's still there as usual.

Originally Posted by KiharaRonin

It will never go away in series like this.

Ecchi will always be a component in Kamachi stories. But even within that, there's good and bad examples of it. Early Index was plagued with bad examples. Everything from the Kazakiri Arc to the Italy Arc (+ Kanzaki washing machine scene) was a pain in the ass to watch. But afterwards, Kamachi became tamer with how he used those ecchi moments. Some bad examples occasionally pop up in the form of some cringe worthy dialogue but the days of randomly walking in on a girl changing ended with Oyafune Suame; that was 30 novels ago (NT7 doesn't count because of how damn entertaining that entire scenario was. ). I actually like the way Kamachi uses fanservice in the Index series after that.

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

Some changes are to be expected, mostly to make it more fluid in the anime, we have to remember that as the series goes on the writing starts to shift into a style that is easier to translate into an anime, at least easier than in early to mid OT. The one thing that is always going to suffer is the exposition but as the series has evolved Kamachi has changed the way he does exposition and now incorporates it into the action instead of having Touma just sit or stand somewhere while Index spouts her exposition about how magic works. Heck, he now has a literal encyclopedia of magic on his shoulders and that says a lot.

We have to realize that many of the problems that we are seeing that are not just studio interference, but also in part the OT jank that we have forgotten due to how much we are use to the current way Kamachi writes.

I don't necessarily have a problem with changes that try to make material more suitable for the new medium. The manga adaptation for the Avignon arc is fantastic. I have a problem with any changes that make the experience worse without any benefits. None of the changes I complained about "made the material more fluid in the anime".

It could potentially be an issue with early Index being written differently but I'm not entirely convinced by that. Rather, that doesn't even apply to the first two episodes.

The real problems are that the direction is bland and uninspired and there are fundamental issues in the storyboard for each episode.

If this series screws up Episode 3, then I'll lose hope for all future episodes.

If it can't get action right in an action heavy story;
if it can't convey the details behind the magic system properly due to it being LN exposition;
if it has basic issues in its storyboards; if the direction is bland and uninspired;
if it continues to put in cheap filler fanservice moments on top of what is already in the novels; and
if it continues to poorly adapt the LN material regarding how characters behave or act by muting their expressions or just not capturing any of the nuance in their actions; etc...

Why were we looking forward to this series again?

Random Fan: "But OH&S, the backgrounds and sound design...!!"

Oh shit, I forgot. 10/10 anime. /s

[Natsurin]

Originally Posted by OH&S

Why were we looking forward to this series again?

Good question. As far as I've known since being here, I think someone did warn that this series was basically "dammed if you do, damned if you don't" because people would never be satisfied with Index III due to high expectations leading to inevitable letdown, hence a strong confusion as to why people were so upset III wasn't being announced.

Can't remember who the he'll that was, though.

[OH&S]

^
Oh you.

I guess the only question I can pose in response is: was it really too high of an expectation that the series have basic storyboard cohesion for the episodes; a tighter script; and competent animation?

Its a bit unfair if I'm not even allowed to ask for that.

[RDNexus]

Given the way many LNs are adapted nowadays, it'd be quite the lucky draw for things to work out well from the get-go

[OH&S]

That's true. But with that said, is the current season still salvageable? It's problematic if animation is outsourced from the second episode when most anime fans follow the 3 episode rule. But am I allowed to take it as a sign that they focused on later episodes?

[Natsurin]

Maybe. At the end of the day, what matters isn't the three episode rule but the priority they've set themselves for their budget in regards to all the goddamn content they have to adapt.

It could very well be that this entire season is going to be steaming shit, or perhaps that some lesser arcs were sacrificed in favour of ones considered to be what the season would be about, for example. When I say "expectations", I mainly refer to the fact that not everything is going to be great, so we need to see what's gonna be (and if it's gonna be) throughout the arcs we're given.

It was the same in previous seasons, anyway. Sometimes lazy directing in some arcs in exchange of focus for later ones.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Natsurin

Maybe. At the end of the day, what matters isn't the three episode rule but the priority they've set themselves for their budget in regards to all the goddamn content they have to adapt.

It could very well be that this entire season is going to be steaming shit, or perhaps that some lesser arcs were sacrificed in favour of ones considered to be what the season would be about, for example. When I say "expectations", I mainly refer to the fact that not everything is going to be great, so we need to see what's gonna be (and if it's gonna be) throughout the arcs we're given.

It was the same in previous seasons, anyway. Sometimes lazy directing in some arcs in exchange of focus for later ones.

Come on people. I’m here for the highlights. It doesn’t need to be great. I’m just happy to have it no matter how shi**y it may be. And I really thought episode 1 was fine. The only disappointing thing was the ending theme animation. But the episode itself was fine. Totally fine. Not sure why anyone would nitpick so much. The purpose of that episode was introducing the audience to characters they haven’t seen for years. And the point was cramming everyone back on the screen for when stuff happens later in the season just to jog our memories.

[Chaos2Frozen]

The best thing I’ve ever did was to tell myself is to step away from “forum warring” because I’ve let other people’s negative impressions affect an episode that I would otherwise have enjoyed.

You can’t change everyone’s opinion, you’ll just end up feeling frustrated about it. It’s more productive to write a really good well written impression than it is wasting time trying to argue with people.

[OH&S]

^
<sigh> Fine, I'll quiet down then. But I just wanna explain why I'm extra salty before shutting up for good.

You see, a while back, I had this exchange:

Quote

Originally Posted by OH&amp;S

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

and also some back and forth about me preferring Nagai's direction over Nishikiori's and getting some backlash.

Cue Episode 1 opening with naked Index; and two scenes where where fanservice is made the punchline plus subpar screenplay/storyboarding.

I feel betrayed man. Its almost as if I was lying to other users.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by OH&S

^
<sigh> Fine, I'll quiet down then. But I just wanna explain why I'm extra salty before shutting up for good.

You see, a while back, I had this exchange:

Quote

Originally Posted by OH&amp;S

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

and also some back and forth about me preferring Nagai's direction over Nishikiori's and getting some backlash.

Cue Episode 1 opening with naked Index; and two scenes where where fanservice is made the punchline plus subpar screenplay/storyboarding.

I feel betrayed man. Its almost as if I was lying to other users.

Lol. Index relies on both. And come on, even if the plot in index iii is way better than i and ii, it’s not like it’ll necessarily start immediately. You’re too worried about your credibility. We all know how good the plot gets. All that matters is whether other people stick with it until it gets there or not. Who cares if they’re too lazy to trust you? That’s on them, not you. I truly thought episode 1 was really fun to watch. I think you were expecting something unrealistic lol. In reality the ending animation was the only thing I didn’t like.

[entei08]

God the CG effects in this episode are horrendous to say the least. The powered suits felt like a joke with no weight apart from sound effects when they move around. The shotgun was like a peashooter. Even Heavy Object had better explosions than the flimsy fire screen that was the Earth Blade. Pretty much the only redeeming quality was Abe Atsushi's performance. The flow was lukewarm at best, same as with the first two episodes.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Originally Posted by entei08

God the CG effects in this episode are horrendous to say the least. The powered suits felt like a joke with no weight apart from sound effects when they move around. The shotgun was like a peashooter. Even Heavy Object had better explosions than the flimsy fire screen that was the Earth Blade. Pretty much the only redeeming quality was Abe Atsushi's performance. The flow was lukewarm at best, same as with the first two episodes.

normal, now that Railgun 3 has been officialized, we already know what their priority is.

[RDNexus]

Do they really give bigger priority to Railgun over Index?