2011-01-02, 03:32 | Link #21101 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2010
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Ep7 is a downfall for me really I guess that the Love Duel is a judgement where either Yasu choose who he/she wants to stay Kanon or Shanon ? What a good mental problem
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2011-01-02, 04:17 | Link #21102 | |||||
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In addition, according to herself, 1986 was the worse possible year for Battler to show up. So, why she want Battler to show up that year. Moreover, Clair even said "Why......did it have to be 1986?" meaning that she really wasn't expecting him. And, had he shown up on the next year, she'd already be with George. Quote:
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As for the multiple plans, again, I think it's been shown she didn't expect Battler to show up for the 1986 conference, with this I mean, he wasn't even part of her plan. If she did plan it, the theory about her bribing Rudolph into convincing Battler to return makes more sense that her trying to do so by bottle she just sent few weeks before the conference. Timing is the main issue here. Heh... I like this.
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2011-01-02, 05:23 | Link #21104 | ||||
The True Culprit
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Ultimately it doesn't matter so long as they're sent out before the conference, because she can't send them AFTER. Quote:
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2011-01-02, 09:15 | Link #21105 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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And gold
Honestly, aside from the butchering of the mystery, Umineko is a pretty good series. I guess Ryukishi just isn't too good at writing mysteries. He was saying he wanted to "amend" the poor mystery of Higurashi here but... I guess it didn't work out too well. He's a great writer, for the most part, but I just think he should stick to writing horror thrillers. He did a great job with Higurashi despite the poor ending. (Of course, there's still the chance he'll remedy this with Umineko Rei... oh who am I kidding.) |
2011-01-02, 09:44 | Link #21106 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Actually, I think that Ryu07 has prepared the ultimate truth behind the Rokkenjima Prime, but he chose not to reveal it in the EP8.
He alluded to its content through Spoiler for EP8 end spoiler:
Those who really want to know the answer, should be able to infer from the episodes. But in the end, what 's the value of that dark truth? Do you have no love for the characters you have been with?3 And I think Umineko still belongs to mystery genre, Ryu07 even mocked the readers who gave up thinking just because they thought the episodes were just fantasy of some characters. I suppose it is that Umineko did not give a definite answer in the end, which is a staple of traditional mystery story, irritates people most. But as I say, the final answer is already here, but you have to seek it out and decide whether you trust it is the answer or not
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2011-01-02, 09:49 | Link #21107 | |
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I'm a mystery fan. To me, the truth is more important than the characters. But I get that the story isn't like that. |
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2011-01-02, 10:01 | Link #21108 | |
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Well, that's exactly how Erika and initially Ange were portrayed The truth behind Rokkenjima is not that hard to surmise, once you read the actual episode 8. It is just that there will never be a confirmation whether your conjecture is true or not.
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2011-01-02, 10:09 | Link #21109 | ||
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It's- It's Carr time. Quote:
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2011-01-02, 10:20 | Link #21110 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Well, in your opinion, what are the domino mask, reversed clocks or teaspoon in Umineko?
But I admit I never get what is the motive of Beatrice from EP7 anyway. --------------- Or I should say, from the perspective of Ryu07, revealing the truth is not that hard, but giving a good end for the characters after revealing the truth is hard. So he chose to keep the catbox closed, but with a glimpse of what is inside.
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2011-01-02, 10:43 | Link #21111 | |||||
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My main problem with the series is that it was cowardly in its execution. Ryuukishi said he would never give a solution from the beginning, and that was perfectly fine with me. I'm fairly confident that even if never given the ending to The Hollow Man, I'd still be able to reason things out the same way our dear Dr.Fell did. Which is what I was expecting Umineko to be like. But here however, we are left with thousands of possibilities and no adequate answer.
Ryuukishi talked about the trust between reader and writer, and let me say this, I feel he betrayed our trust. He told us to think, to fight against him, yet he did not fight back. Quote:
One might argue that the novel wasn't meant to be solved, which is fair. But he did ask us to think, numerous times. I personally took that as an invitation to play the grandest game in the world, and I see no fault with that line of thinking. Anyone who speculated here in this topic before does not have the right to say that we were not expected to think about it. Quote:
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Ryuukishi invited his readers to fight him, then ran away once he saw things weren't looking up to him. If you want to argue that he was in no obligation of fighting the reader, feel free to. But you know what? I think he did have that obligation. Once you set up a body inside a locked room, you damn right have the obligation to explain to your reader how that happened. If you want to make a point that the 'reality' doesn't have a clear culprit, feel free to. But god damn it I want the right to solve the 'games' you invited me to play. If you won't offer us the solution, then craft them better so that we'll get to the right solution. For example, the first game. Assuming that Kyrie, Rudolf or Shannon were faking their deaths raises questions that will most likely never be answered. Surely we can come up with a wishy washy explanation for them, but that is not what a mystery should feel like. There should be no wishy washinsess when explaining a mystery. Quote:
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I understand that there are certain die hard fans who will disagree with me and try to say I don't 'get' it or something like that since absolutely no one is allowed to dislike their precious novel and any negative impression of it consists of logic that can and will be nitpicked to death, as I no doubt believe will happen here. Having read episodes 1-8, this is my following rating on the series: Pacing: 4/10 Writing: 6/10 Characters: 10/10 Plot: 7/10 Mystery: 0/10 Overall: 6/10 A fun story, but the ride was much better than the destination. I'll still like the series, but you won't be seeing me trying to convince my friends to read it anymore. |
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2011-01-02, 11:24 | Link #21113 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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Eh, my final rating would be more like:
Writing Pacing: 7/10 (Slightly above average; nice and slow in the first four episodes, but Ryukishi somehow forgot to make the transition to "action packed and dramatic" in the supposed answer episodes) Style: 8/10 (Poor writing habits keep me from giving it a 9, but there is great dramatic overture that compliments the superb music.) Plot: 7.5/10 (Overall a very creative plot with many superb ideas, but misleading direction and an unsatisfying conclusion leave you with a bad aftertaste.) Characters: 7/10 (Overall a bad, unlikable cast. A few gems like Kinzo, Beatrice and Bern prevent me from giving it a 4/10. If he didn't kill the best freaking character in the whole series in the 4th episode it could've been a 8/10. Pales in comparison to Higurashi, which had a really superb cast.) Overall: ~7.5 Misc Music: 10/10 (I am a musician IRL. The music, and musical direction are the best I've seen in a VN to this day. Bar none.) Graphics & Effects: 8/10 (The sprites grow on you over time. The effects weren't bad either, and cute sound effects like ahaha.wav seem like an awkward addition, but they grow up on you over time. Great use of effects to troll is also noteworthy.) Overall: 9/10 Weighted Overall: (0.75) * (7.5) + (0.25) * (9) = ~8 (Yeah, not really the place to put this, but we don't really have a thread for it.) |
2011-01-02, 11:51 | Link #21114 |
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I disagree with the comparison between pro-mystery readers and Erika.
Pro-mystery readers are taking the position that "There is a real solution, and I'm trying to figure out what it is." Erika / Bernkastel's position was "I don't care whether there's a real solution. I'm going to force things towards one answer and cover up / ignore any evidence to the contrary."
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2011-01-02, 11:56 | Link #21115 | |
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Comparing pro-mystery readers to Ange/Will is far more accurate than to Erika. The comparison people want to make though is that while Battler just wants to prove that a witch didn't do it, the witches want to find the actual culprit, and anti-mystery readers seem to think that it's "cruel" to want a mystery out of a "senseless tragedy." Which is where the Carr quotation comes in. |
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2011-01-02, 12:02 | Link #21116 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Totally agree. If you watched code geass, that isnt a mystery, you will notice the creators took half a year to produce the last 2 episodes. The reason was towards the end, they decided they didnt want a run of the mill 'make love not war kiss n hugs' ending. However once they unleashed hell, they didnt know how to solve it hence after hell was unleashed it was half year or more before they came up with the last 2 episodes. Which isn't much of a happy ending but at least they tried. Then they did a brilliant job with s2 with a bittersweet ending. See that really shows what sherringford said about pros n novices. The pros regardless of their ability will put up a fight, and perhaps later when they finally found a better way they present a brilliant continuation. Umineko is a bloody joke. The overall backstory is brilliant i admit n the metaphorically witches virgillia ronove also makes perfect sense with the backstory. However u cant sell a nonsensical main story with only brilliant backstory. Even a poor main story with a brilliant backstory is many times better than a nonsensical mainstory.
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2011-01-02, 13:51 | Link #21117 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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It's not that he didn't know how to finish it as a mystery, it's more like he didn't want it to be one in the first place. There is a very straightforward way to write EP8 as a mystery:
+ Explain Shkanon + Explain EPs 5 and 6 more thoroughly + Make Yasu the culprit (and not some random culprit from nowhere) and explain her motive (supposedly he already thought of this one) + Meta in message bottles only, ignore the "Battler amnesia" angle (Battler can still be an author of the fake message bottles though) This is what most people expected from EP8. He doesn't even need to alter its narrative structure much to do this. |
2011-01-02, 14:04 | Link #21118 | |
Knowledge is the solution
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