Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

And is then defeated by a car accident.

I was about to smack my head against the keyboard when i saw that but then i remembered i don't care that much about Carter so i just facepalmed instead xDU

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

Well why would you dual wield swords that were that big?

I mean, you'd look like an idiot.

Given its size, laevatein is a one-handed sword.

[WarpObscura]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

And is then defeated by a car accident.

Hey, I'll have you know that cars are a leading cause of death!

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Given its size, laevatein is a one-handed sword.

Oh yeah, that's another detail that comes with the weird curve and opposite design of the AEC-Cleaver handgrip/hilt. It seems to only have space for one hand whch is a bit incoheret given it's big size. Ok, i can see Signum's left Hand is totally occupied with the shooting shield but what is Signum loses the shield like she did on this fight? Or what is Signum lacks striking power and needs to do a two-hand slash?

I'm still scratching my head as of what the designers of that thin were thinking back at Caledfwlch Techniques xDU I really doubt Signum asked for such a design xDU

[Justin_Brett]

This thing with the upgrades being treated as actual military developments is more miss than hit honestly. Some characters get MP weapons that seem vaguely practical, and then there's stuff like the bunker shield or again, the dragon armor.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

I'm still scratching my head as of what the designers of that thin were thinking back at Caledfwlch Techniques xDU I really doubt Signum asked for such a design xDU

First and foremost, I want it to be noted you asked for this. *deep breath*

I still haven't gotten a good look at the design yet. The perspective keeps skewing obervations like length and thickness, making things hard to determine sure-fire. Do we have a NEXT design on this thing yet?

Handguards in swords are an often neglected, but critical advantage of a sword's design. Deflected blows have a high chance of hitting the hand, which, being that this is a sharp piece of metal we're talking, means there is a high chance of injuring the very hand that's holding the sword, resulting in a disarming strike at best, or a useless hand at worst. Either way, the fight at this stage will be an almost guaranteed loss.

The curved hilt is not all that unusual. In the east, many sword designs have curved hilts. Arabian and Turkish designs are the most well-known among them. They offer better maneuverability of the blade, allowing for sharper twists with less effort. Position-wise on this particular sword, there seems to be enough space for a second hand (chapter 24, page 18).

The buckler is small. But then, buckler's are small (as small as 15 centimer). They were designed as pure sword-defense in support of a one-handed fighting style, after all, and were small as to not interfere with it. The stake weaponry does not seem to get in the way, and so is a nice addition to allow more offensive support of the second hand.

So the only real downside I can find? It's broadness. It's a very broad sword. But even that is reminiscent of existing swords: Scimitars. A sword which coincidentally also tends to have curved blades I might add. With a large amount of weight in the front of a blade, the curved hilt compliments the sword nicely.

Bottomline? Regardless of it's size and actual weight, all evidence of the sword's design point to a blade that thrives on agility and quick, fluid motions.

[Akiyoshi]

Really? I've watched the handgrip of scimitars and other similar swords, the handle fo this thing not only is curved is almost circular, it's also on an opposite side of the bale insted below of it which makes the thing to be held more like a guillotine than a sword (Signum apparently can't hold the blade straight as it's always a big degree of onclination when she does it), as for the balde's design it doesn't see to be maneurable at all, the handle design and the form of the blade reminds me of Berkserker's "sword" on Fate/Stay Knight, the handle makes it to work by doing linear strikes rather than proper fencing and swordfighting like a proper sword like Laevatein does. It's also very similar in shape to Sette's curve-blades, bot those have the advantage of being a bit smaller as also can fly on their own, a gimmick Signum's big knife onbiously lacks.

I didn't seen too much agility from the way Signum used the thing, in fact she seems slower now as Cypah was more easily able to enter her space and make sucessfull attacks, something that never happened when she was holding Levatein on their previous fight. The plot and AEC-Designers seems to be also aware of this as the shield was vital for Signum's survival when Cypha dodges the blade. The shooter included on the shield is what gives fluidence to Signum's attacks alongside Agito's supports because the balde alone is rather clumsy compáred to Laevatein who can adapt quickly and change the dynamics of it's attacks in a truly fast and fluid way.

I also find the buckler rather usefull but only because it manage to compensate somewhat the failures of a clumsy weapon. The big downside is that ultimately failed to fulfill it's mission as a shield as it was rather qhickly destroyed ...and not even by a divider but by Cypha's bare hands xDU

The sword also obviously lacks the versatily Laevatein ahd with his distinct modes. Signum was really taken by surprise by Laevatein's Schlagenform and as we had witnessed numerous times it's a gimming that allowed Signum to control the movements of the opponent or make an opening to turn the tide of the fight (in that case, allowing Agito to prepare unison), is both, attack and defense into one. The shooting shield is an improvement over bogen form as Signum can now shoot more frequently but sacrificed destructive power greatly as Strumfalken is a humongously powerfull bombardment attack by comparision, sure it probably dosen't work as well against EC Drivers but in any other situation is much, much better than the "silver bullets". And as for Laevatein's normal blade, we know how skilled Signum is with it and how efficient is for fast and powerfull strikes unlike what we've seen of the AEC-Cleaver. Laevatein's hilt have enough lenght and accebility to allow for fast changes between one or two-handed slashes and is also more maneurable, able to fence and change directions quickly as we've seen on her other fights. I bet Signum will have great troubles fighitng Fate with that "thing" instead of Laevatein.

Signum is a knight, not an arabian fighter, give her the proper wepaons intead of forcing her to use stuff barely designed for her combat style xDU

[Keroko]

Circular? Hardly. Page 3 has a semi-decent view of the handgrip. It's just curved. Now the handguard is almost circular, yes, but that's not a bad thing, given that it's located on the blade side, which is the common placement for handguards that cover the hand anyway. Always shielding the place on your grip where your fingers are. The blade looks bulky on most pages, but it's often perspective talking. Blade first, Signum second means the blade will be drawn larger. That's why I want a Force Next before judging scale, because the pics are squinting galore.

You are going to have to explain to me what you see as "proper fencing," because there are millions of varieties in swordplay, and the term "fencing" is used most often to refer to this kind which Signum has never ever done.

I don't see much agility in the way Signum wields laevateine either (it's always "RAWR! SMASH!" until she goes slangenform, which itself is a retarded weapon working only because of Rule of Cool). In fact, I'd say that this fight is far more agile than anything we've seen signum do so far. Double-blocking, repeated multi-weapon use, and following the sword traces rather than the static images, very agile swordsplay.

And buckler breaking is no surprise. Bucklers aren't tower shields, they excel in defending against light blades, and will break under the stress of heavy blows. The purpose of a buckler in those cases is to make sure said blow doesn't kill the user and create openings (by deflecting blows, shielding the sword hand, pinning the enemy, etc.) which the buckler succeeded at to the point of creating an opening for Signum to strike. Exactly as design intended, really.

You say "Signum is a knight" as if it justifies your personal analysis of her fighting style, but if we get critical, she's always been a terrible knight. Even in A's. This is not the fault of the character, but the fault of the animators not knowing what a knight entails and just defaulting to standard samurai knowledge. She wields a one-handed weapon without side-arm. Uses only slashing attacks despite her weapon having solid piercing options even without slangenform (indeed, due to the evolution of western armor, western weapons became specialized in stabbing). She uses two hands to fight with her one-hander, despite solo-one handing benefiting more from... well... using one hand and positioning your body so you receive minimal retaliatory blows.

The way Signum wields laevateine is how the average movie samurai fights. If anything, by fighting style alone Signum is a samurai. Not a knight.

[seiftis]

sorry for asking, are the scanlations no more?

[Rising Dragon]

No. In fact they recently updated Force's english scanlations.

They're just really, really friggin' slow about it.

[bhl88]

Yes.... even the Spanish ones are faster (I read them and yet I can't understand them).

[Justin_Brett]

Aki seems to be projecting our idea of what a knight is onto Signum despite her being from an entirely different planet. Even if they share aesthetics, who's to say they also share fighting styles?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Circular? Hardly. Page 3 has a semi-decent view of the handgrip. It's just curved. Now the handguard is almost circular, yes, but that's not a bad thing, given that it's located on the blade side, which is the common placement for handguards that cover the hand anyway. Always shielding the place on your grip where your fingers are.

The design of Laevatein's handgrip is just fine, the curved zones at the end of the blade can be used to fend off attacks aimed at the hands. The AEC-cleaver design is excesive.

Originally Posted by Keroko

The blade looks bulky on most pages, but it's often perspective talking. Blade first, Signum second means the blade will be drawn larger. That's why I want a Force Next before judging scale, because the pics are squinting galore.

Unfortunately Kurogin said he finished with the NEXT design series so we'll need to wait for another official source of info for the stats of that thing. We didn't even know how the thing is called xDU

Originally Posted by Keroko

You are going to have to explain to me what you see as "proper fencing," because there are millions of varieties in swordplay, and the term "fencing" is used most often to refer to this kind which Signum has never ever done.

I'll admit i'm no sword expert. The only thing i know is that the style used by Signum on this fight isn't the one she uses usually and seemed to be clumsier and less efective.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I don't see much agility in the way Signum wields laevateine either (it's always "RAWR! SMASH!" until she goes slangenform, which itself is a retarded weapon working only because of Rule of Cool). In fact, I'd say that this fight is far more agile than anything we've seen signum do so far. Double-blocking, repeated multi-weapon use, and following the sword traces rather than the static images, very agile swordsplay.

Heh, just the same way people like to flanderize Nanoha into someone who only knows how to blast thigns xD. Signum's fightstyle was very fast and skilled. Laevatein is a sword with a wide area of attack but Signum was always able to precit opponent's movement and turn fast to block and attack in rapid succession.

I agree Schalgenform would be utterly inpractical on the real world, but fortunately, it exist on the Nanohaverse where people can fly and long snake-like whip-swords can be manipulated to cover great areas swiflty and with great effect. Schalgenfrom is rarely the way Signum finishes her battles, it's more like the middle-step of her combat style, the snake-sword can be used to control the opponent's moves and also confuse them with quick and variable range moves. It's offensive and defensive at the same time and can channel Signum's magical power to a variety of effects, it lacks the raw striking power of the Schwertform and can't make high-tier bombardement attacks like Bogenform but it's the most versatile form of Laevatein that can open the path for Signum in battle.

You said Signum's AEC is fluid and quick, yet Sginum's lacking speed in this fight allowed Cypha to score damage and was relying on the shield for defense for msot of the fight because she wasn't able to parry as well with that thing. Something that never happened with Laevatein who managed to even blind Cypha with it's maneuverability and high-speed attacks. the only weakness Laevatein have against the new equipement is durability. He's superior in every other aspect.

Originally Posted by Keroko

And buckler breaking is no surprise. Bucklers aren't tower shields, they excel in defending against light blades, and will break under the stress of heavy blows. The purpose of a buckler in those cases is to make sure said blow doesn't kill the user and create openings (by deflecting blows, shielding the sword hand, pinning the enemy, etc.) which the buckler succeeded at to the point of creating an opening for Signum to strike. Exactly as design intended, really.

Half agree on this. I said half because if Cypha decided to regrow her arm and continue the fight Signum would be fried as the only thing preventing Cypha from avoiding her clumsy cleaver and get to her guts was that shield xDU

Originally Posted by Keroko

You say "Signum is a knight" as if it justifies your personal analysis of her fighting style, but if we get critical, she's always been a terrible knight. Even in A's. This is not the fault of the character, but the fault of the animators not knowing what a knight entails and just defaulting to standard samurai knowledge. She wields a one-handed weapon without side-arm. Uses only slashing attacks despite her weapon having solid piercing options even without slangenform (indeed, due to the evolution of western armor, western weapons became specialized in stabbing). She uses two hands to fight with her one-hander, despite solo-one handing benefiting more from... well... using one hand and positioning your body so you receive minimal retaliatory blows.

Maybe you're right but in the Nanohaverse she's a very capable and effecgtive fighter. Signum's scabbar fulfill shield functions perfectly as also doubling as a second sword of sorts which is actually a pretty cool and clever idea. Signum only uses two hand for certaing kind of strikes who require more strenght, most of the time she only uses one hand (Shidden Issen is mostly executed one-handed). Signum do tried to stab people but plot always get in her way xDU.

Originally Posted by Keroko

The way Signum wields laevateine is how the average movie samurai fights. If anything, by fighting style alone Signum is a samurai. Not a knight.

Okay, she's a samurai if you like. Still not an araban fighter. Teh point remains xD

[Keroko]

It's interesting that you are willing to dismiss slangenform as "because magic" but call this sword too bulky. But regardless of this claim, Signum doesn't seem to be listening, as the fight is anything but 'clumsy and less effective'

Take page 18. The two fighters are in very close proximity to one, which with a clumsy weapon would have been a death sentence, as the fighter with the clumsy swordfight couldn't possibly maneuver in this situation. But if you look at the sword slashes drawn on the page, you will see a rapid succession of slashes has been done. This alone already shows us fast and agile swordsplay is involved in this fight.

Also, yes, using the scabbard as an improvised secondary weapon was creative move. But as with all improvised weapon, it's only effective in the short term. Unlike the buckler, the scabbard isn't designed to withstand blows, making the element of surprise the only reason it creates openings. It is, in all points, inferior to the buckler.

You are right that Signum's fighting style has changed in this fight. You are, however, wrong as to how. In this fight, Signum's style has improved over her anime times. Less reliance on "rawr, I smash puny defences" more reliance on getting close using proper swordfighting equipemt (finally she's using that second hand properly!" and parrying to create openings rather than to look cool. The result? Several successful hits that did not rely on one-trick ponies like the scabbard.

[Akiyoshi]

This party isn't over yet xD

Originally Posted by Keroko

It's interesting that you are willing to dismiss slangenform as "because magic" but call this sword too bulky. But regardless of this claim, Signum doesn't seem to be listening, as the fight is anything but 'clumsy and less effective'

AEC-Equipement is very different to Armed Devices, don't put them on the same category.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Take page 18. The two fighters are in very close proximity to one, which with a clumsy weapon would have been a death sentence, as the fighter with the clumsy swordfight couldn't possibly maneuver in this situation. But if you look at the sword slashes drawn on the page, you will see a rapid succession of slashes has been done. This alone already shows us fast and agile swordsplay is involved in this fight.

Link please, i've watched the entire chapter agains and didn't saw that(also is hard to pinpoint what page is the 18 xDU). The only hits i saw Signum connecting was the ones she did after goading or tricking Cypha with the shotting shield. And Cypha had LOTS of chances to get to her, even managed to score hits. Signum's hits are now wider and have more space for the enemy to get to her vitals unlike Laevatein who in most cases provides a swift and efficient offense and defense.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Also, yes, using the scabbard as an improvised secondary weapon was creative move. But as with all improvised weapon, it's only effective in the short term. Unlike the buckler, the scabbard isn't designed to withstand blows, making the element of surprise the only reason it creates openings. It is, in all points, inferior to the buckler.

I thing it was, after all, the scabbard is designed as part of Laevatein and is able to share some functions with the sword for efficient defensive and optional offensive maneuvers. Don't understimate the use of a scabbard in a swordfight. Hitten mitsurugi-ryu is a good example of how usefull a scabbard can work as a support weapon to control the fight. You yourself mentioned Signum being a samurai, Samurai rarely relies on shields cause their goal is to finish the opponent as quickly as possible.

Originally Posted by Keroko

You are right that Signum's fighting style has changed in this fight. You are, however, wrong as to how. In this fight, Signum's style has improved over her anime times. Less reliance on "rawr, I smash puny defences" more reliance on getting close using proper swordfighting equipemt (finally she's using that second hand properly!" and parrying to create openings rather than to look cool. The result? Several successful hits that did not rely on one-trick ponies like the scabbard.

You keep mentioning improvement over her anime fightstyle when we saw her in manga kicking all sorts of butts as well. Her fight against Nanoha (you know, basically the best balanced mage of the series, the "Ace of Aces") is testament of how good Laevatein can do in battle against incredibly skilled opponents. Signum is very capable of skilled fight when the situation calls for it. It's just that most things fall under Laevatein's might just like that she rarely has being in the need to do something more elaborated xD When the need DID arised she didn't dissapoint. She had Cypha in her pocket until the sword breaks, Cypha fenced with her in a battle of skill and didn't even managed to land a single hit on Signum. Her skill with Laevatein is just that awesome. Here Signum fought with not one but two pieces of equipement supposedly enhaced to fight Cypha's kind and still got hit. The panels depicting the way she moves the sword doesn't suguest manuverability but long and linear slashes instead, watch the chapter again if you don't believe me.

It's difficult to call it an improvement when she's clearly more vulnerable fighting that way.

I hope Curren appears and finally destroys that hideous thing for good, we need 5th Gen Laevatein xD!

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

AEC-Equipement is very different to Armed Devices, don't put them on the same category.

This coming from mister "I nitpick all the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff wherever I get away with it?"

They are different, yes, but that doesn't automatically stop Signum from being a mage, with all the "because magic" that comes with it.

Can't link. Stuff's still raw, and forum policies means mods go "rawr" if I do. It's the page after the title page that has Caro riding on Fried. A lot of sword clashes going on there. And lots of chances? Cypha scored one glancing blow. One. Superficial and fully ignorable. That's less hits compared to the previous fight. Not more. Created an opening that ended with a chopped arm for Cypha too.

And what kind of logic do you use that makes you say these swings are wider than what she usually does? Hell, if anything these swings are closer. I think you're wearing a heavy pair of nostalgia goggles here Aki.

As for the scabbard being "effective" in swordfights... yeah. No. Just.... no. Scabbards are hollow, made out of materials not designed for swordfights, have no grips, no handguards, can easily be disarmed or outright destroyed.... they're improvised weaponry, and completely inferior to a tool actually designed for the purpose. If you ignore the entire arsenal samurai have (what? You thought a katana was the only thing they had?) samurai rarely rely on shields because the katana was mainly wielded as a two-handed weapon. And in the cases where they do need a side-arm, they carry a wakizashi. A weapon designed to be a side-arm, and thereby infinitely more reliable than a scabbard.

I have watched the chapter again. watch it every time I type here to double-check. I see a solid position with several slashes. That implies a high maneuverability of the sword to switch it's direction without moving position.

But yes, let's check the StrikerS manga again. First move, shiden issen. An iaido... with a straight blade. Uh, no. That'd lose effectiveness. Straight blades don't work like that. Only done because the creators are more familiar with samurai, and only works because of "because it does." Yeah, it's cool and effective plotwise, since you seem to enjoy hammering on the AEC weapons from a realistic point of view I fully intend to do the same. If nothing else, it might show you just how pointless it is to judge weapons in a magical girl show in a realistic way.

Anyway, moving on. Slangenform. Lolmagic, followed by a scabbard block of one tiny shot which almost destroys the scabbard in the process. Deary me, if only she had a buckler or something.... Clash clash clash, vaguely drawn so no real juicy things here powering up and... what's this? A giant, two handed swing with an arc that goes almost 270 degrees? Truly, such "short and agile" swings this sword has. Got trapped, tanked the BEAM'O'DOOM! and fired an ARROW'O'DOOM in return, which got dodged. One last slash which we don't get to see, and fight's over.

So, in the end. Was the fight cool? Hell yes! Also, screw that draw bullshit. Signum was clearly in a better condition than eye-spinning, barely-forming-a-coherent-sentence Nanoha. Was the fight... better? More skilled? No, not really. Slow, giant arc swings, improvised weaponry, walking straight into the trap of a known snare-and-nuker? Yeah it looks cool and awesome, and don't get me wrong I love the fight. But to objectively call this fight better? Ehh... no. She basically did everything in the StrikerS chapter you accuse her of doing here.

But hey, at least Signum is more vulnerable with the new stuff, right? Despite suffering only a superficial cut rather than getting her spine torn in four. And a sword through her gut. Yes. More vulnerable.

[Akiyoshi]

You're lucky i actually have stuff to do outside today, so i'll leave my long aswer for latter. I'll just focus on this part for now.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Buy hey, at least Signum is more vulnerable with the new stuff, right? Despite suffering only a superficial cut rather than getting her spine torn in four. And a sword through her gut. Yes. More vulnerable.

Which happened AFTER Laevatein got disabled. Was Cypha even able to touch Signum while she was still holding Laevatein? Hell no xD!

The only thing that AEC-thing have as an advantage is not being suceptible to Eclipse. Aside of that Laevatein is still the superior weapon xD

[Keroko]

Here's the thing, though. If laevatein was the superior weapon.... why did it shatter?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Here's the thing, though. If laevatein was the superior weapon.... why did it shatter?

Because plot.

Before shattering it has been doing a far better job than the AEC-Cleaver & shield combo. Signum's original style doesn't use a shield because it's simply unrequired, her second arm is free to do all sort of combos, combinations of scabbard-sword and stuff. Now her left hand is completely encased inside that thing leving it limited to shield and shoot, further limiting what she can do in battle. A 5th Gen Laevatein with her modes enhaced or left intact and his durability augmented would be much more effective against Cypha than that thing. But well, i guess it would be boring to have Signum trashing Cypha all around the place with her usual awesomeness so they gave her a crappy weapon and a broken spine to even the grounds.

Signum is a knight/samurai ...not a freaking crussader or a spartan warrior xDU Leave that for Leonidas or someone like that.

Tsuzuki wanted to replace Laevatein with a more "real" weapon so it comes Eclipse and bam! Laevatein is nerfed. Now Signum's dinamyc fightstyle in limited more more "real" boundaries and her new weapons is lacking in options and versatility.

Ok, i'll leave now, people needs food here and i'm the delivery guy xD!

Long answer to your previous post tonight xD

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Because plot.

Funny how that answer only works when it's in your favor.

If a sword breaks in combat against another sword, it is not a superior sword. This isn't rocket science, and certainly not something new either. Raising heart and bardiche both got broken, then they were upgraded. Not just with cartridges, but reinforced frames as well.

Also, Signum didn't do "all sorts of combos" with her unoccupied hands. She either gripped her sword with two hands, or in very rare cases used her scabbard to block. The former will admittedly become more difficult. The later is only improved with the buckler, which also adds a whole new range of moves and options to create openings. There is a reason I've been yelling at Signum to get a shield these past five years. An unoccupied hand with a one-handed weapon is not a strength. Oh, and Signum can still attack at range quite well. Knight of flame and all that.

I am also amused that previously you called the weapon ridiculous and unrealistic a couple of posts back, and now call it real as if real is a dirty word. This pretty much renders all your previous arguments moot. I do believe that the core of your dislike has nothing to do with the AEC weapon itself, but everything to do with that it is no longer laevatein.

In short: "they changed it, now it sucks."