Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha the Movie 2nd A's Discussion Thread (spoilers)

[Demi.]

Myanimelist, the largest anime list site on the internet.
http://myanimelist.net/anime/10153/M...e_Movie_2nd_As

[Kaijo]

Most people are easily impressed by the shiny. Why do you think Hollywood blockbusters that contain sex and violence, and tons of plot holes, still do well? Even Transformers, which quite a few people disliked, were still liked very much by the masses. Most people don't think too much about the plot, and there are numerous tricks that the director can use, so that people don't think about them. The Cloverfield and Godzilla movies, where the huge monsters roam around... and then just disappear. Or just appear out of the blue. These are 50 story tall monsters that in no way should be able to just disappear. And their approach should generate tremors, letting you know they are coming.

Hell, Back to the Future was one of my favorite films, and yet there is a huge hole with the Libyans. They only just crash into a photobooth... and then what? That wouldn't have killed them, so at the end of the movie, they should come back around and continue to look for their plutonium. Yet most people wouldn't even have that cross their minds.

So yeah, as Keroko said, we're a bit more critical over here; we think a bit more over these things, but recognize the masses won't. The shiny (action sequences) are all it really takes to leave people with a good feeling. They won't question anything further, or mentally just write the plot holes off as inconsequential.

And it helps to be a Fate fan, or a NanoFate fan, too, heh.

[krisslanza]

I'd have to say that the Movie 2nd went a lot better then me, and pretty much all my friends were hoping. We were all pretty excited to see it, but knowing it was A's (and most of my friends agree it's the best season, only one thinks StrikerS is better) meant there was a good chance it might feel kind of rushed in the end.

But in general I think the movie handled itself beautifully. Anything important was still basically kept in, and the removal of Graham and the twins makes perfect sense when you remember the movies are canonical in-universe productions: It'd be a pretty terrible thing to publish a movie about you basically glossing over a crime from someone and just letting him retire peacefully.

It does make Reinforce's want to fight Nanoha and Fate a lot sketchier, yes considering they had nothing to do with it, but it'd been a pretty boring end fight there if she just flew off and blew up the Earth or something.

And I think AS is just really critical. Or at least, the Nanoha fans left on AS are pretty critical about everything You guys are impossible to please

[Nanya01]

If pretty visuals were all that was needed to make a good movie, then the Michael Bay Transformer films and the Star Wars Prequels would be the best movies ever.

[krisslanza]

But you need pretty visuals and a good story and good characters. I feel the Movie 2nd did all of that. Although, the fight scenes were pretty awesome. And you could certainly have someone watch the Movie 2nd and they'd still get the entire general gist of the A's plot (minus Graham's involvement).

[Craxuan]

No surprise that we're being critical about the plot/content/etc; more than half of the active members here write a lot.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

No surprise that we're being critical about the plot/content/etc; more than half of the active members here write a lot.

I totally write though...
It just feels like removing Graham didn't actually change the overall flow of the show like you figured it would have. About the only iffy thing it caused, was it makes Reinforce fighting Nanoha and Fate kind of... un-needed.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

But you need pretty visuals and a good story and good characters. I feel the Movie 2nd did all of that. Although, the fight scenes were pretty awesome. And you could certainly have someone watch the Movie 2nd and they'd still get the entire general gist of the A's plot (minus Graham's involvement).

I'll refer to my previous posts about what's missing from the movie and why it really hurt the film so I don't rehash everything.

But while the visuals were pretty, Nanoha and Fate, well...

Those aren't the Nanoha and Fate I knew of from the series.

Fate was cool, collected, a strong fighter and got back up despite getting hammered.

Nanoha was tough as nails, determined and continued fighting even when she was injured and her device was cracking apart on her.

Neither of that was in this movie.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Anything important was still basically kept in, and the removal of Graham and the twins makes perfect sense when you remember the movies are canonical in-universe productions: It'd be a pretty terrible thing to publish a movie about you basically glossing over a crime from someone and just letting him retire peacefully.

This is technically not true. The "characters" just promoted the film... to us, in our reality. It's not actually an in-universe production.

And I think AS is just really critical. Or at least, the Nanoha fans left on AS are pretty critical about everything You guys are impossible to please

Not impossible; just higher standards.

Originally Posted by krisslanza

But you need pretty visuals and a good story and good characters.

No one is denying that good visuals are important. Just not as important as a well-put-together story. It is like a game that has pretty graphics, but poor gameplay and is only 2 hours long. Some of the most classic, memorable movies came from the black and white era, such as "It's a Wonderful Life" and "Citizen Kane." Poor graphics and visuals, but the story was the important part. Considering they only had access to limited visuals, they had to make up for it with the story.

In fact, that constraint works for anime as well. A series has a lower budget, so they can't sell it strictly on visuals; there needs to be a story there. I think Tsuzuki has fallen into that trap, thinking he just needs to cherry pick parts of his story, dress it up with fancy visuals, and call it a day. Which is true, as he'll obviously make money with that. But sometimes it is the little details you neglect, that cause the whole thing to collapse.

But for mass consumption purposes, the movie serves its role. Hollywood will continue to make blockbusters, after all.

[Craxuan]

Generally removing Graham wasn't that big of a problem, but it caused the Wolkenritter's mistrust and uncooperative attitude towards the TSAB (and the NanoFate) to be very unjustified. For example, it just didn't make sense here that even someone as calm as Signum went batshit insane on them after the encounter at the hospital.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

Generally removing Graham wasn't that big of a problem, but it caused the Wolkenritter's mistrust and uncooperative attitude towards the TSAB (and the NanoFate) to be very unjustified. For example, it just didn't make sense here that even someone as calm as Signum went batshit insane on them after the encounter at the hospital.

I don't really see this. They're still basically a Lost Logia that is commiting crimes all over the place. Not having Graham doesn't somehow mean the TSAB would be like "Oh so you need to suck some linker cores to save your Master? Sure, go ahead."

They'd still react the same without him - they after all know the Book is a massively dangerous Lost Logia that has to be contained. They wouldn't just help the Knights out or something, they'd just try to arrest them and seal up the Book.

[Craxuan]

Even though Nanoha and Fate repeatedly said that they're not a threat, that they want to talk, that they're only trying to understand the situation, and that they're trying to help them? At one point Vita seemed to have accepted Nanoha and proclaimed that she would talk the next time they meet (or something), but her (and everyone else) complete change to absolute hostility and murder at the hospital rooftop was completely unnatural.

Not once Nanoha and Fate had attacked first and every single time they were on the defensive. The TSAB mages themselves were never shown to have fought the Wolkenritters openly. At worst the TSAB is going to arrest them, not murder them or Hayate just to stop the BoD. You'll have to forgive me if I cannot understand why the Wolkenritters suddenly turned on their murder button and decide to wipe out Nanoha and Fate's life.

When Graham was involved, there was someone intentionally creating a rift between them and sowing mistrust.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

Even though Nanoha and Fate repeatedly said that they're not a threat, that they want to talk, that they're only trying to understand the situation, and that they're trying to help them? At one point Vita seemed to have accepted Nanoha and proclaimed that she would talk the next time they meet (or something), but her (and everyone else) complete change to absolute hostility and murder at the hospital rooftop was completely unnatural.

Not once Nanoha and Fate had attacked first and every single time they were on the defensive. The TSAB mages themselves were never shown to have fought the Wolkenritters openly. At worst the TSAB is going to arrest them, not murder them or Hayate just to stop the BoD. You'll have to forgive me if I cannot understand why the Wolkenritters suddenly turned on their murder button and decide to wipe out Nanoha and Fate's life.

When Graham was involved, there was someone intentionally creating a rift between them and sowing mistrust.

The thing is though the TSAB arresting and detaining them is pretty much the worst thing that can happen to them. They need to be able to go about and collect pages, AND keep Hayate in the dark about it so none of it lands on her shoulders.

They were able to keep going about their business because no one knew who their Master was - but when Nanoha and Fate walk into the hospital room, they now know who their Master is and they would've gone and told the TSAB which is pretty much the worst thing that could happen to them, as suddenly Hayate is now a target as well.

All Graham did was try to PREVENT the TSAB from succeeding in arresting the Knights, since he needs them free to finish their job so he can do his own plan.

[Craxuan]

The Wolkenritters have no idea at that time whether the Lotte twins were their allies, despite the help. A 3rd party involvement whose intentions were unknown made them extremely cautious and unreceptive to Nanoha and Fate's pleas. That was understandable. The entire build up of tension and stress due to the twins involvement perfectly explained why they finally decided to take the extreme method of killing of the two.

But in the Movie the TSAB has again and again, through Nanoha and Fate and even Lindy Harlaown, who although was a victim of the BoD still proclaimed that all they wanted to do was to ask questions, talk, and figure out a solution. Logically speaking the Wolkenritters should've at least considered cooperating with them, but they did not. The reasons you give are relatable, but serves as a much poorer explanation of motives as compared to the one we see in the anime.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Craxuan

The Wolkenritters have no idea at that time whether the Lotte twins were their allies, despite the help. A 3rd party involvement whose intentions were unknown made them extremely cautious and unreceptive to Nanoha and Fate's pleas. That was understandable. The entire build up of tension and stress due to the twins involvement perfectly explained why they finally decided to take the extreme method of killing of the two.

But in the Movie the TSAB has again and again, through Nanoha and Fate and even Lindy Harlaown, who although was a victim of the BoD still proclaimed that all they wanted to do was to ask questions, talk, and figure out a solution. Logically speaking the Wolkenritters should've at least considered cooperating with them, but they did not. The reasons you give are relatable, but serves as a much poorer explanation of motives as compared to the one we see in the anime.

Cooperating with the TSAB nets them nothing though - it's not like the TSAB is just going to allow them to rampage across worlds attacking mages or poaching monsters for their own selfish desires. In the best case scenario, the TSAB might at best just relocate them somewhere remote so when the book flips out, nothing important is destroyed

But more likely, all they'd get is arrested and then the book would flip out and kill people anyway. Or Hayate would die first. Whichever happens though, the Knights lose.

[Kaijo]

The real headscratcher is that... in the series, the Wolks memories are fragments and incomplete, so they didn't know that completing the book would kill Hayate. In the movie, their memories are mostly intact... thus they should have known that completing the book would be bad for Hayate.

Of course, it was the Lieze twins that stepped in and prevented Nanoha and Fate from telling the Wolkies that in the series. Without them, there would have been nothing stopping them from explaining to the Wolkies while they fought... hence why they needed the awkward NachtWall. But the addition of that led to the plot hole above.

Since the Wolks did have their memories, they should have sought out help for Hayate, from the DAB. "Hey, our mistress is dying, and there is nothing we can do to save her. All we can do is gather pages, and that will still end up killing her due to NachtWall. Please help her!"

Remember, in the series, they didn't realize the book was corrupted; they thought it was acting normally. In the movie, they *do* know it is corrupted by NachtWall.

[Craxuan]

And yet the thought of cooperating should've at least occurred to them, should've been at least discussed; it wasn't the same as in the anime. They were the same reasons, but in the Movie there were not enough material to support the fact. Plain as that.

And oh, cooperating with the TSAB would've saved them so much trouble in the Movie. If they didn't bother interrupting NanoFate every time they try to talk they would've realized that they're speeding up their mistress' death. If they cooperated earlier they might be able to help Yuuno find information in the IL, which could lead to constructing a workable plan to separate the defense program from Hayate etc. The rampage might've still occurred, but it would've incurred far less risk and damage onto Hayate's wellbeing.

[Cannonball]

I'd give the movie a 7 or an 8 myself. Enjoyable and worth watching. A reasonably decent adaptation of the series. At least as far as the thrust and general gist of the plot is concerned - especially given the time constraints. What the movie really struggles with, though, is the Movie 2nd is a condensed adaptation of A's: a very good, very tight series with great pacing. That the movie succeeded in being enjoyable at all, given what it had to live up to, is no small feat. I honestly began watching it with very low expectations, and came out the other side giving it a solid thumbs up. Well done, Movie 2nd.

Now, would I recommend someone who hasn't seen A's watch the Movie 2nd? No, I probably wouldn't. Because A's is great - and it demands to be seen if you're going to watch Nanoha at all. This is in stark constrast to the Movie 1st - which I absolutely WOULD recommend someone who hadn't seen Nanoha watch INSTEAD of the series. The first series suffered greatly in that it took far too long to get to its good parts (and the parts that make Nanoha, well, Nanoha). In my eyes, that makes the Movie 1st a much better introduction to the franchise.

A's suffered from none of the problems MSLN suffered from and was enjoyable from start to finish. In that regard, no matter how good the movie could have been, it would have been almost impossible for it to surpass its source material. A's was just that strong of a series, and had far more time to tell its story.

[Funkatron]

Consider this: suppose you were a criminal, you're mom is laid up in the hospital and you are visiting her and you realize that the police officer who is personally responsible for tracking you down was visiting her as well, literally hitting way too close to home. I'd be a heck of a lot defensive as well. I do agree that they didn't make clear whether or not they truly realized that this time wouldn't turn out different and Hayate wouldn't die. It seemed like they just thought complete bookk meant that it wouldn't feed off Hayate anymore. It did seem like they were hoping NachtWall would never activate but all that hit the fan when the book decided Nanoha and Fate were too much of a threat to let the Knights deal with on their own.

[Nanya01]

Did Nanoha or Fate ever announce they were with the Bureau in the movie?

I know in canon Fate and Nanoha both said they were civilian collaborators with the Bureau.