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Old 2014-07-08, 22:52   Link #381
Irenesharda
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Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD View Post
From what I'm read from the timeline, Earth's forces seem to put up a good fight against the Vers Empire and even killed Ray's son during the battle at the moon. This implied Earth isn't that much outclassed by the Vers Empire.
I think that perhaps whatever leap forward in the arms race, during the cold war they had with Mars probably ended after Heaven's Fall. They most likely had to divert most of their money and resources towards the recovery effort, while the VERS Empire probably didn't.

And didn't the lieutenant basically say they were hopelessly outclassed in his monologue to the doctor? Now, since he's drinking and rather depressed at the moment, we have to take it with a grain of salt. But I do think that firepower and tech wise, the Martians have a large advantage.

On another note, someone made a better map that has an overlay of the world as it was pre-Heaven's Fall, versus after. I thought my city made it, but nope, completely underwater.

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Last edited by Irenesharda; 2014-07-08 at 23:10.
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Old 2014-07-09, 00:46   Link #382
Darth Fanta
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If they'd been sent to Mars (without the expectation of alien tech lying around) and then stranded with little hope of survival, with the Emperor discovering the tech and saving everyone, sure. But here? It was the most important find in history. There should have been massive oversight and constant communication with Earth, with everyone watching everyone else, and not, like some have hypothesized, a war criminal left in charge with complete autonomy.
You are speaking as though countries are willing to blow their budget to invest in the expedition and their full attention is focused on it. The thing is that governments have much more things to do than that. The economy, foreign affairs and domestic politics etc are what's being most focused by politicians. Getting 300k people to Mars is expensive enough, you think government officials are willing to spend time and taxpayer money they could have used to help students, the economy and the homeless to make sure everyone on Mars live a comfortable life?Chances are that they only have enough funding to support absolute necessities. I wouldn't be surprised if there was only one direct communication device between Mars and Earth, which would have been controlled by the Scientist. There's also the fact that countries don't trust each other, thus leading to them devolving much power to a supposed neutral organization they trust for the sake of this joint project. This meant that the Scientist, as the head of the Mars Development Organization, would probably have free reign. Further, if the Scientist maintains a facade of sanity, they just wouldn't suspect that he's a complete monster and would be content to leave him in charge.You have to realize that according to the timeline, he "suddenly" turned on earth, meaning there's no way they could suspect he's completely insane. By the time the UN knew his true character and had him arrested and tried to suppress the colonists by force, the colonists are already indoctrinated into supporting him, even broke him out of jail and launched terrorists attack against earth, eventually escalating the situation into a full scale war.

What's illogical here isn't why the colonists are so extreme, but how come earth didn't sent a force large enough to begin with to suppress the rebellion when it first broke out.Even if the colonists have Martian technology on their side, three years isn't enough to form a sizable, well trained, well equipped military force to resist earth nor is there enough time to convert Martian technology into feasible military use. There's also the fact that they shouldn't really have the facilities to do all of that. There's also the fact that even if there were most colonists arriving to bolster the initial 340k, there shouldn't be enough people to man up a large enough force to resist earth.


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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Are you kidding? I could probably find 300k college educated people who are unemployed or underemployed in France alone, let alone the whole world.
And just how many of those 300k University graduates are willing to leave their hometown, let alone to Mars where their chance of survival is in doubt? Besides that, you have to look at just how many of those 300k actually have expertise needed for the colonial expedition.If people don't have any problem about their survival and they will take any job as long as they are paid, the army wouldn't have recruitment difficulty and there will be a lot less people on the dole. Other than that, just how many of those 300k are indeed qualified mentally for the expedition if there was even a selection process?

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Which begs the question of why anyone would let him do that.
As I've mentioned, if the pretender was manipulative and intelligent enough, he could have used the rivalry between different nations as an opportunity to present himself as a supposedly neutral, competent individual that can serve all their interests. He would have been granted a lot of power in Mars to prevent one nation having too much influence in the project and in light of his supposed neutrality and competence.That's one explanation.

At any rate, if there's only one communication device, or if the pretender is able to control communication, he could have told the authorities on earth that everything on Mars is fine while in fact, he's intentionally causing hardship on Mars,such as withholding supplies from the colonists, while telling the colonists that it's the governments' fault that they are having such hardship, not him. Throughout the process, he would present himself as a father figure to the colonists,striving 'actively' to solve their problems while their government has abandoned them. After a while, he could have feigned competence by using his stockpiled supplies and advanced artifacts to solve all problems,leading the colonists to 'realize' that people on earth did not deserve the artifacts and that they are scum who abandoned them.

Alternative explanation would have been that all leaders who agreed to give him all these powers are utterly incompetent and poor judges of character.

Last edited by Darth Fanta; 2014-07-09 at 01:10.
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Old 2014-07-09, 01:34   Link #383
Anh_Minh
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You are speaking as though countries are willing to blow their budget to invest in the expedition and their full attention is focused on it. The thing is that governments have much more things to do than that.
More things, yes. Better things, no. We are, again, talking about the most important find ever. They would do anything humanly possible to insure that as little as possible of that precious alien tech is lost to incompetence, or any corruption but their own. They would do all they can to retain as much control of it as possible. And they certainly wouldn't send a "war criminal" to oversee it, seeing as they would have plenty of better volunteer to do it. (What part of "most important find" don't you get?)

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The economy, foreign affairs and domestic politics etc are what's being most focused by politicians. Getting 300k people to Mars is expensive enough, you think government officials are willing to spend time and taxpayer money they could have used to help students, the economy and the homeless to make sure everyone on Mars live a comfortable life?Chances are that they only have enough funding to support absolute necessities. I wouldn't be surprised if there was only one direct communication device between Mars and Earth, which would have been controlled by the Scientist.
That's ridiculous. They might not spend much on luxuries, but they absolutely would keep channels open, for what I'd think are obvious reasons.

Quote:
There's also the fact that countries don't trust each other, thus leading to them devolving much power to a supposed neutral organization they trust for the sake of this joint project. This meant that the Scientist, as the head of the Mars Development Organization, would probably have free reign.
No, it doesn't. See, that's what I meant by "everyone would watch everyone else". They don't trust each other. They certainly aren't going to trust some supposed "neutral organization". They would protect and advance their interests, and that means a lot of overt and covert surveillance.

Quote:
Further, if the Scientist maintains a facade of sanity, they just wouldn't suspect that he's a complete monster and would be content to leave him in charge.
Again, no, they wouldn't. They would watch to see what he finds there, and arrange for the most interesting bits to be sent back home for analysis. If we're talking about "bare minimums for Mars", that includes labs. And scientists.

Quote:
You have to realize that according to the timeline, he "suddenly" turned on earth, meaning there's no way they could suspect he's completely insane.
Him going insane and shooting up a board of administrators is one thing. That'd be a believable "suddenly going insane".

Him hoarding alien tech - and mastering it - so he'd have enough of an advantage to make his rebellion stick is another.

Quote:
By the time the UN knew his true character and had him arrested and tried to suppress the colonists by force, the colonists are already indoctrinated into supporting him,
Which is another problem. How does one develop a personality cult without being noticed?

You're also overstating the dangers. Considering how well the colonization went, as I said, they must have found a terraformation button. And widely underestimating the importance and prestige of being part of it. Yeah, I don't think they'd have problems finding plenty of volunteers.

But mostly, you're underestimating governments. You think they'd leave something oversight of something like that to some intern who's only there because he's someone's secretary's nephew? That they'd let some random guy have complete control of it and never check anything? In terms of strategic importance, it makes the oil reserves of the Middle East look like a can of lighter fluid. They'd have inspectors, spies, and spies on the spies.
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Old 2014-07-09, 01:54   Link #384
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
A good chunk of the New York State survived, can't say the same to the City though...
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Old 2014-07-09, 02:34   Link #385
Darth Fanta
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
More things, yes. Better things, no. We are, again, talking about the most important find ever. They would do anything humanly possible to insure that as little as possible of that precious alien tech is lost to incompetence, or any corruption but their own. They would do all they can to retain as much control of it as possible. And they certainly wouldn't send a "war criminal" to oversee it, seeing as they would have plenty of better volunteer to do it. (What part of "most important find" don't you get?)
Except they did send a war criminal to oversee the entire project, either due to the brilliance of the scientist or the UN's gross incompetence. It's not as though it's unknown the UN as an organization is deeply inefficient and failed catastrophically on a number of occasions(Rwanda e.g.). Have you heard of people like Rolf Harris and Jimmy Savile? They were known as friends of children and honorable good men before their crimes were exposed, after abusing children for DECADES, all helped by their good name. In regards to Savile, no one even found out about his crimes until he was dead.Hence, monsters can mask their true nature if they are careful enough.

Politicians care more about votes than technological advancement due to some artifacts. In that regard, the economy, foreign affairs an domestic approval would be more important than technological finds in Mars.Some people in the government would have had some oversight of the program, but they can hardly get any dirt if they remained on earth. The earthlings would have been happy if the colonists sent artifacts down to earth periodically. If artifacts keep rolling in, they will just see it as evidence that the scientist and everyone on Mars is doing their job well. They have no reason to suspect them at all. It's dumb, but people simply just get all over their heads as long as there's some resemblance of success.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
That's ridiculous. They might not spend much on luxuries, but they absolutely would keep channels open, for what I'd think are obvious reasons.
The channels are open, except there's limited channels and most of them would be controlled by the project's leader, the scientist. There's no reason to suspect the ulterior motivation of the scientist if he had a great reputation prior to leading the project.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, it doesn't. See, that's what I meant by "everyone would watch everyone else". They don't trust each other. They certainly aren't going to trust some supposed "neutral organization". They would protect and advance their interests, and that means a lot of overt and covert surveillance.
As I've mentioned, communication devices that connect earth to Mars exists, but they would have be fairly limited. There would have been no reason to maintain large numbers of communication devices except for the absolute necessity as these things are expensive.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Again, no, they wouldn't. They would watch to see what he finds there, and arrange for the most interesting bits to be sent back home for analysis. If we're talking about "bare minimums for Mars", that includes labs. And scientists.
As I've mentioned before, as long as he sends some artifacts back home and feigns that's all there is, there's no way people on earth would have known he's keeping the bulk of the artifacts for himself and he's plotting a rebellion. They would have been happy if the colonists found any interesting artifacts at all.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You're also overstating the dangers. Considering how well the colonization went, as I said, they must have found a terraformation button. And widely underestimating the importance and prestige of being part of it. Yeah, I don't think they'd have problems finding plenty of volunteers.
There's not much prestige being part of the expedition if you are not one of the leaders.Chances are that you will also die. And no,I'm not overstating the dangers. It is dangerous. You are basically stepping into the unknown.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
But mostly, you're underestimating governments. You think they'd leave something oversight of something like that to some intern who's only there because he's someone's secretary's nephew? That they'd let some random guy have complete control of it and never check anything? In terms of strategic importance, it makes the oil reserves of the Middle East look like a can of lighter fluid. They'd have inspectors, spies, and spies on the spies.
Even spies could be turned into genuine followers if done correctly. As I've mentioned, there are many ways the scientist could have manipulated the situation to his advantage with his position as the leader of the expedition. Few people would have also been able to access communication devices that communicates directly with earth as they are EXPENSIVE and DIFFICULT to make.It wouldn't be something like a mobile phone where everyone can have one.It'd be like trying to communicate with Europe in China back in the days of WWI. There will be telegraphs to communicate directly with Europe, but they would be extremely few in numbers. There's no way government officials would have foreseen the need for communication devices than the number necessary to report on findings and requests for supplies.

Last edited by Darth Fanta; 2014-07-09 at 03:02.
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Old 2014-07-09, 07:10   Link #386
bastek66
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Who's the guy on the far left above Slaine? Slaine's father?

Nope. Slaine was called a Terran so he and parents are emigrants from Earth - I doubt they would be let to wear Martian uniforms.

(Looking at World) They sure didn't like Kim Jong-il and now South Korea is an island.
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Old 2014-07-09, 07:23   Link #387
Darth Fanta
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Nope. Slaine was called a Terran so he and parents are emigrants from Earth - I doubt they would be let to wear Martian uniforms.

(Looking at World) They sure didn't like Kim Jong-il and now South Korea is an island.
Interesting to note is that most of the areas they've wiped out are major population centers.
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Old 2014-07-09, 07:56   Link #388
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Interesting to note is that most of the areas they've wiped out are major population centers.
Well, I guess some of the lords put some thought into landing.
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Old 2014-07-09, 08:22   Link #389
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(Looking at World) They sure didn't like Kim Jong-il
- Hold on. Maybe the Martians aren't such bad guys after all.
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Old 2014-07-09, 08:48   Link #390
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Information time!

Someone on the chinese board posted a summary of information obtained from the official website (there are some unlockable information in the website itself). While I can't verify the sources (I don't know how to unlock the official page's code game), the information is most probably real (with pics as well). This is my best translation.

Warning. While nothing major, they might spoil your enjoyment if you intend to learn about the world itself through watching the show. Oh, contain spoilers on the Princess's assasination.

Spoiler for A/Z:
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Old 2014-07-09, 08:49   Link #391
Darth Fanta
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Originally Posted by bakato View Post
Well, I guess some of the lords put some thought into landing.
I'm talking the ones destroyed by the moon.
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Originally Posted by LightningZERO View Post
Information time!

Someone on the chinese board posted a summary of information obtained from the official website (there are some unlockable information in the website itself). While I can't verify the sources (I don't know how to unlock the official page's code game), the information is most probably real (with pics as well). This is my best translation.

Warning. While nothing major, they might spoil your enjoyment if you intend to learn about the world itself through watching the show. Oh, contain spoilers on the Princess's assasination.

Spoiler for A/Z:
I KNEW IT! HA!
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Old 2014-07-09, 09:52   Link #392
Utsuro no Hako
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
On another note, someone made a better map that has an overlay of the world as it was pre-Heaven's Fall, versus after. I thought my city made it, but nope, completely underwater.

Spoiler for Size:
Looks like Washington DC survived, so the damage was probably caused by falling moon chunks rather than targeted attacks by the VERs or rising sea levels. Well, with all the new seas, I guess water levels might have gone down a bit.

What's really odd is that several mountain ranges (the Cascades, Sierra Nevada and Appalachians) are completely gone. I don't see how you could get explosions that big without destroying humanity. All I can think is that whoever redesigned the coastlines never bothered looking at a topographic map of North America.
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Old 2014-07-09, 10:00   Link #393
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On another note, someone made a better map that has an overlay of the world as it was pre-Heaven's Fall, versus after. I thought my city made it, but nope, completely underwater.

Spoiler for too big:
If I'm correct than the black parts are the ones that aren't underwater, then from what I see Puerto Rico lives, kinda surprised it's even in the fricking map since somehow it vanishes whenever an overview or map of the world is shown in anime.
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Old 2014-07-09, 10:06   Link #394
Cosmic Eagle
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I think that perhaps whatever leap forward in the arms race, during the cold war they had with Mars probably ended after Heaven's Fall. They most likely had to divert most of their money and resources towards the recovery effort, while the VERS Empire probably didn't.

And didn't the lieutenant basically say they were hopelessly outclassed in his monologue to the doctor? Now, since he's drinking and rather depressed at the moment, we have to take it with a grain of salt. But I do think that firepower and tech wise, the Martians have a large advantage.

On another note, someone made a better map that has an overlay of the world as it was pre-Heaven's Fall, versus after. I thought my city made it, but nope, completely underwater.


Lol how did North Korea end up the only bit of drowned land there?
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Old 2014-07-09, 10:06   Link #395
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It's pretty obvious that the Princess was:

Spoiler for wassssss:


I think the Princess will survive - usually these characters have plot armor. But then again, this is Uorobochi we're talking about.
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Old 2014-07-09, 10:12   Link #396
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Poor Philippines... What's left of the archipelago was parts of Luzon and Mindanao.

Also, seems that most of Pakistan and Bangladesh were wiped out too!
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Old 2014-07-09, 10:16   Link #397
Cosmic Eagle
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Nah, that's just not believable. Give me an example of a homogenous cultural identity like we saw here developing on Earth in that time span. It just doesn't happen. I understand the technology changes things, but you're making the argument that 20 years pass and they're referring to themselves as a unique group with a royal family and looking down on others based on their ethnic/national identity? This is a process that takes hundreds of years in normal history. I'll give them a 100 year grace period due to their technology accelerating things, but that's the cutoff of believability.
Quote:
You're right. This is absolutely ridiculous. This timeline factor somehow managed to miss my attention on initial viewing - Perhaps because it's so bad I was mentally blocking it out in order to enjoy the episode as much as possible.

The Vers people talk a bit like the "aliens" in Rinne no Lagrange do. Which would make perfect sense if the timeline at play here was the same as it was in Rinne no Lagrange, but alas, the timeline is radically different.

It's just about unbelievable to think that 30 years would be enough time for Martian settlers to view the humans back home as almost an entirely different species (let alone race). Yes, that definitely strains credibility. I mean, some of these Martian settlers probably have fairly close relatives back on Earth (i.e. 2nd/3rd cousins, grandchildren of brothers/sisters, and so on). The older ones likely grew up on Earth, and so ought to have some attachment to Earth and the humans living there. Facebook alone ought to put a cramp on Vers/Earth hostilities.


Yeah, this is one time where I think Gen is really far off on what he considers believable.
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Umm....you are sure the alien tech didn't somehow screw with their heads a bit?

Weird unknown stuff tends to carry the risk of that....
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Old 2014-07-09, 10:17   Link #398
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Originally Posted by LightningZERO View Post
Information time!

Someone on the chinese board posted a summary of information obtained from the official website (there are some unlockable information in the website itself). While I can't verify the sources (I don't know how to unlock the official page's code game), the information is most probably real (with pics as well). This is my best translation.

Warning. While nothing major, they might spoil your enjoyment if you intend to learn about the world itself through watching the show. Oh, contain spoilers on the Princess's assasination.

Spoiler for A/Z:
Spoiler for no surprise there:
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Old 2014-07-09, 10:26   Link #399
Cosmic Eagle
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Yeah, I just re-read the timeline and there are some big problems there. That said, is it possible that isn't the final version of the timeline or that something got lost in translation? I'm willing to wait and find out if the timeline is totally correct here or not.

Also, who says they have Facebook? This is a timeline that should be quite a bit different than our real world. The cold world ended in 1975, a decade earlier than here, and then they had a influx of advance technology all before 1983 or so. I think Gen and co are thinking that is why this world seems to look similar to ours with the cell phones but they may not be thinking that the internet evolved the same way. Then again, Tiger and Bunny's alt history makes a more sense than some of this, so it's really a cast of taking it with a grain of salt and ignoring the silly . Code Geass alt history makes even less sense to me but plenty of people loved that show (not sure where I ended up on my liking/not liking it), so how these things make/break things seems pretty random, to me.
The translation of the timeline is largely accurate. Only some minor details were untranslated but the general idea is there

Of course, that's the "official" timeline.....obviously, important things like why mad scientist went mad in two years is left out
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Old 2014-07-09, 10:34   Link #400
Darth Fanta
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Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Spoiler for no surprise there:
Well, as the material mentioned, the Earthlings managed to cut the colonists' supply lines while at the same time killed their emperor.Meanwhile, they lost 50% of their population. On numbers alone, the damage to earthlings would have been greater, but since there's less than a million colonists, damage to Martian society would have been pretty catastrophic.
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