Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by The American Average

To this day i still don't get how she got past the Security guys to get Kira to the Freedom, By this time in the show ZAFT is ruled by Patrick Zala and Its pretty obvious he doesn't want Lacus just roaming about. i know Lacus had inside help but the entire staff of where the Freedom was stored i doubt that.

It was sort of explained that they basically used up all of Siegal's political and military clout in Zaft to get Kira Freedom. Presumably he asked a few favors for posting switches and the like and Patrick's guys, not expecting the CF to actually do anything detrimental to their war effort obliged. After that Patrick started going nuts and purging anyone that wasn't explicitly loyal to his regime.

[Destined_Fate]

Destiny would have made much more sense if Waltfield, Mwu, and Kira had all died in SEED. -_-

At least that way Lacus couldn't bully her way as the only way and try and convince everyone what she was doing was entirely justified and how right her actions always are because she's the one doing them.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

At least that way Lacus couldn't bully her way as the only way and try and convince everyone what she was doing was entirely justified and how right her actions always are because she's the one doing them.

That never happened in Destiny.

[The American Average]

I forget, what did Lacus do in Destiny. Wasn't she with Kira the first couple episodes and then went into space and wasn't shown again till the Strike Freedom.

[Aquaman OS]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Destiny would have made much more sense if Waltfield, Mwu, and Kira had all died in SEED. -_-

At least that way Lacus couldn't bully her way as the only way and try and convince everyone what she was doing was entirely justified and how right her actions always are because she's the one doing them.

Yes. Then Durandal would have conquered the planet unopposed as Shinn smashed through everything in his way, ending the show at episode 30. With only faceless Logos minions as his only opponents. Yeah that sounds really exciting...........

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Yes. Then Durandal would have conquered the planet unopposed as Shinn smashed through everything in his way, ending the show at episode 30. With only faceless Logos minions as his only opponents. Yeah that sounds really exciting...........

so true would totally be boring however the plot would have had to make some more villains for Shinn to fight to make up for that. Could have been really interesting like make more extends to fight, so you go deeper into that plot point.

[I Fail at Life]

Yeah, only if Shinn takes a back-seat and Rey then gets to shine like he never could, but that still means I would have to sit there and watch Lunamaria continuously fail again, God No.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Destiny would have made much more sense if Waltfield, Mwu, and Kira had all died in SEED. -_-

At least that way Lacus couldn't bully her way as the only way and try and convince everyone what she was doing was entirely justified and how right her actions always are because she's the one doing them.

Mwu and Waltfield we could have done well without, due to the nature of their deaths

Kira on the other hand, hes fine alive, but the problem was that the damn directors could not keep him on the sidelines like Amuro in Zeta (which would have been perfect imo, mainly sideline while still present, 1-2 shining moments, then gone/in background for rest of series)

The thing about Lacus "bullying" is that she's playing the politics game, everyone with that sort of power have to do that (or whats the point of picking a stance at all? You mind as well not do anything if that was the case, as everyone else will just walk over/ignore you then). Also they never stated that what they were doing was fully justified, nothing in this world ever is, whats right for one person can be wrong to someone else. All Lacus and Co. did was pick a stance, and stuck with it (fighting to end the war and oppose the Destiny plan). Same with every other faction/group (Durandal for his own version of peace through the Destiny plan, Logos for the "preservation of their blue and pure world" etc.)

[Destined_Fate]

Eh, they could have had Shinn with Athrun's help see that Durandal isn't as he appears and than fight to right the wrongs he unintentionally caused when he thought he was doing right.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Eh, they could have had Shinn with Athrun's help see that Durandal isn't as he appears and than fight to right the wrongs he unintentionally caused when he thought he was doing right.

didn't athrun try that? he got a huge sword to the gut for trying. Luckly he had his plot armor on or he would have died

[Destined_Fate]

Not really, by that point Athrun was abusing Shinn severely and badmouthing him about Kira thus pushing Shinn into trusting Rey even more who in turn pushed Shinn to believe in Durandal. Had Kira not been there 99.9% of Athrun's abusive relationship with Shinn wouldn't have been there.

I'm also talking about Athrun escaping and after Durandal goes lulz crazy with power after the destruction of Logos, Shinn will form doubts and Athrun will confince him to be a man and stop Durandal from murdering millions/billions of innocents as it would be repeating the same mistakes of the past. Lacus obviously would still be alive as Athrun needs someone to give him a small army and it would/should have been Athrun stopping Cagalli's wedding anyway.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Not really, by that point Athrun was abusing Shinn severely and badmouthing him about Kira thus pushing Shinn into trusting Rey even more who in turn pushed Shinn to believe in Durandal. Had Kira not been there 99.9% of Athrun's abusive relationship with Shinn wouldn't have been there.

I'm also talking about Athrun escaping and after Durandal goes lulz crazy with power after the destruction of Logos, Shinn will form doubts and Athrun will confince him to be a man and stop Durandal from murdering millions/billions of innocents as it would be repeating the same mistakes of the past. Lacus obviously would still be alive as Athrun needs someone to give him a small army and it would/should have been Athrun stopping Cagalli's wedding anyway.

Athrun was questioning Shinn considering how much he benefited from Durandal. You would be suspicious of someone showering with gifts every single day that raise your status. How is that not inflating Shinn's ego? He had plenty of time on the missions on earth to redeem himself. Instead, he act as a stray ricochet focus simply on revenge killing indiscriminately.

Durandal was crazy for power the entire time, he didn't hide it. It doesn't even to be the destruction of Logos to got him to that role where he is pulling the strings.

Shinn should have question Durandal even earlier about why he is being use this way. I felt that had Shinn should have become even more unstable instead of hovering a bit above breaking point.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Eh, they could have had Shinn with Athrun's help see that Durandal isn't as he appears and than fight to right the wrongs he unintentionally caused when he thought he was doing right.

What I wanted to see at the end was a giant enemy MS force standing in the way of Shinn (who still maintained the lead role and was "good"), Athrun, and Kira. Then we are treated to a scene of pure mecha fanservice with the Destiny, IJ, SF tearing through the forces with Athrun and Kira clearing the way for Shinn to fight the Legend and Rey, and in the end facing Durandal (in place of Kira)

This is my wistful thinking XD (come on, who wouldn't want to see that?)


Alot of you seem to be forgetting the fact that Shinn is a soldier, he have to follow orders. Questioning your superiors is also not in your best interests, as it could compromise your safety and/or undermine the whole reason you are fighting for. Shinn isn't like Athrun, who had passed this point, and was in a somewhat special situation (his father being the leader).

The only way Shinn would have switched his views was if he DIRECTLY witnessed/experienced something (so that there was no doubts at all) that directly contradicted what Durandal/ZAFT had told/established for him over the time of his service on the Minerva. EG Durandal decided that Shinn outlived his usefulness and had Rey shoot him down in the middle of a battle (just an example)

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by Skye629

What I wanted to see at the end was a giant enemy MS force standing in the way of Shinn (who still maintained the lead role and was "good"), Athrun, and Kira. Then we are treated to a scene of pure mecha fanservice with the Destiny, IJ, SF tearing through the forces with Athrun and Kira clearing the way for Shinn to fight the Legend and Rey, and in the end facing Durandal (in place of Kira)

This is my wistful thinking XD (come on, who wouldn't want to see that?)


Alot of you seem to be forgetting the fact that Shinn is a soldier, he have to follow orders. Questioning your superiors is also not in your best interests, as it could compromise your safety and/or undermine the whole reason you are fighting for. Shinn isn't like Athrun, who had passed this point, and was in a somewhat special situation (his father being the leader).

The only way Shinn would have switched his views was if he DIRECTLY witnessed/experienced something (so that there was no doubts at all) that directly contradicted what Durandal/ZAFT had told/established for him over the time of his service on the Minerva. EG Durandal decided that Shinn outlived his usefulness and had Rey shoot him down in the middle of a battle (just an example)

Soldiers are people as well. There is only so much superiors can do until someone realize the wrong they having been perpetrating the crime the entire time. I disagree for Shinn had plenty of time to directly see whether there was something wrong with ZAFT.

Shinn could have gone AWOL a lot sooner had Lunamaria found out major evidence that Durandal plan that does screw themselves as well. Durandal wouldn't be that naive to put all his trust in Shinn not to have his own guards or pilots if something does go wrong. That couple with a hostage event of her could push to at least run away from ZAFT. He doesn't have to defect just yet. Shinn at this point requires more time to actual time to think things through.

[S.Freedom]

Originally Posted by Skye629

Alot of you seem to be forgetting the fact that Shinn is a soldier, he have to follow orders.

Funny thing about following orders is that so where German soldiers stationed at concentration camps. And the trails afterwards pretty much said "I was just following orders" isn't good enough when doing so means being responsible for mass murder. Also here in the US anyway soldiers/officers are obligated to refuse orders they in good conscious believe to be illegal. Otherwise they're just as guilty of said illegal act as who ever gave the order.

[Aquaman OS]

Thing is Durandal did such a good job controlling his enviroment and buttering him up that Shinn had no real reason to doubt him. He only really started hesitating when the Destiny Plan came up, but after 2 episodes of Rey and Durandal playing on his issues and revealing Rey's tragic past they'd sold him on it as well.

Really it's almost funny how perfect a solider Shinn was ready to be molded for Durandal. He had Seed and natural skill. He hated Orb due his family thing, so he'd be all too happy to fight them for Durandal (as opposed to Athrun who's enthusaism for Zaft abruptly evaporated once Orb was their opponents) and he wasn't raised on Plant, so he has no prior loyalty or friends (allowing Rey to befriend him and get into a place to control him) and he had no idea who Lacus is and her words have no sway over him, he really doesn't care about her.

Thanks to EA's stupidity and mindless evil actions Durandal could quickly get him into the mindset that Zaft=Good and not Zaft=bastards that deserve to die. And Durandal always goes out of his way to praise him and butter him up whenever he's in town, and whenever Shinn's path might waver he either gives him a shiny new Gundam, or a Faith badge to keep him in his thrall.

Shinn's only problem is that he was raised to be such a mindless soldier he has a serious problem when the enemy isn't some faceless person he doesn't know and can write off as not a person.

Stella could have been a major problem if she stuck around and Shinn would prioritize her over Durandal, but that convientiently resolved itself. Kira killed her, so not only was Stella no longer a direct influence on him, but he'd hate and desire vengence from her killer, and have a growing dislike for the people associated with him, people he was anticipating to be a problem soon, so he'd be even more willing to attack them on Durandal's orders.

Athrun however ruined everything by defecting. In a Gouf Shinn could defeat him too fast for Athrun to have any sway on him, but the shock of "killing" him caused mental stress and that plus Athrun being able to hold his own upon his return meant Shinn would quickly degrade and break down whenever he fought him.

Which was another problem. The losses and stresses of war gradually wore Shinn down as the series went on, and unlike Lacus's verbal healing sessions which fixed Kira and Athrun and turned them into the white knights for her that they became, Durandal and Rey weren't interested in fixing this since more hate and rage made Shinn a better killer for them so they just did their best to focus his rage on their enemies and keep him fighting just a little longer.

It's all this that makes Shinn a rather well done tragic character who's vices and situation combined with a master manipulator served to turn him into a fallen hero, who wanted the best, but nearly destroyed a nation of innocent people, and allowed a control freak of a dictator to nearly take over the world.

Which to be honest is probably more unique than "hero finds out his boss his evil and turns on him for great justice" that's been done a million times before and was done enmasse in the previous series. The staff even said that Shinn was designed to be a totally different character from Kira and Athrun so it makes sense that he wouldn't follow the same path they did.

[Destined_Fate]

Durandal did keep his craziness hidden as he knew what to say to have the people follow him. He didn't reveal his true face until after Logos was defeated and he was sure that nothing could stand in the way of his plans now as the people for the most part loved him for liberating them from Logos.

Destiny would have been much better had Shinn at some point ended up fighting against Durandal and forming his own redemption upon seeing that what he was doing wasn't good at all but being a puppet for Durandal to commit true atrocities to have his way.

[monster]

It's not about being a mindless soldier. Nothing that Durandal did throughout Destiny warrants rebellion from ZAFT soldiers other than keeping the Requiem and the Destiny Plan. But even both of these could be justified somewhat as defensive purposes.

And Shinn did have his doubt about the Destiny Plan.

[Aquaman OS]

Shinn had his doubts yes, but Durandal and Rey eventually talked him into it, after spending most of 49 in coversation with him.

In fact most of Zaft had their doubts, aside from Rey and that Faith guy constantly spurring Zaft to fight until Athrun blew his ship up. Which is why Luna hesitates when attacking the Eternal and later tries to break up the Shinn/Athrun fight, why Yzak and Dearka switch sides, why quite a few Zaft guys just freeze in the face of Lacus and get disabled, and why most of the Zaft forces including Talia, basically stop trying to fight once Durandal shows his true colors by blowing up his own guys. (That might have gotten Shinn to turn on him, but Athrun had already defeated him by then)

The only thing that might have caused rebellion was if it was made public Durandal was attempting to assainate and/or frame for treason people that weren't submitting to his absolute authority or people that could resist him later down the line. But that wasn't known.

[monster]

The point is that Shinn not going against Durandal does not mean he's a mindless drone, like some people are saying.

I see that people like to use this term a lot every time they see someone following authority.