Byakugan, Sharingan & Rinnengan

[Chi]

Originally Posted by raikage

• The spin didn't finish - which seems to be what you're leaning towards. Neji began the Kaiten when it occured to him to do so. He didn't finish because he didn't have the time to finish, which is different than a warm-up time. Imagine racing a car with an automatic transmission (to simplify things from a stick) - as soon as you hit the gas, the car goes. But, when the light turns green, if you aren't completely on top of your game, you miss the cue and the other car gains a lead. It has nothing to do with delay of the car, but rather that of the driver.

I'd just like to comment on this quote first.
Essentially what I gathered was that generally: a green light pops up, you hit the gas, and your car goes. This point to me says that if you're just a little slow, the other cars get ahead of you. That's true, but it was apparent that Neji started his spin, but the fact that it didn't deflect all of it was because it he started it late, meaning there has to be some time, even if it's brief, before the spin maximizes the deflection. For Kaiten to work, instead of just firing your chakra out, you spin so that it swirls around you creating the shield. So while firing chakra out is like stepping on the gas, you need to spin in order to protect more effectively like a car needs some acceleration time before it really gets moving.

I do not disagree with the fact that Kaiten is primarily based on reaction speed, but even if Kaiten is instantaneous in its chakra release, I contest that the time required to attain optimal spinning speed is technically the warm up time needed for Kaiten.

In the end, what I've said basically defends what you've said raikage and hopefully clarifies why Neji's Kaiten did not appear instantaneously or appear so useful.

I wish I could create further points on the Byakugan and Sharingan but for the time being, it seems between raikage and EbonySeraphim, most everything has been covered as shown in both the anime and manga. (hopefully subject to change)

[EbonySeraphim]

I should shove everthing I have to say down your throat[raikage] >.>

I do agree about Sasuke copying Lee's taijustu. I don't believe it that much either. I can believe that his eye somehow helps him immitate it better than most people could somehow. If you don't mind though, care to tell me what thread involved you and Hunter going at it? I would love to read up on what was discussed there. I know Hunter knows volumes of information. Same thing about the speed. This is probably something I need to re-read or rewatch. I could have sworn someone stated directly that "Sasuke copied Lee's speed." Once again, it is hard to believe but I still aruge that we hardly know exactly what sharingan does/allows.

About the Triple Windmill Blades - I guess its best not to argue about the translations. in the end, the manga probably should be the highest authorithy in terms of depiction. But the sharingan allowing the user to manipulate the strings in such a way that it is virtually inescapable is quite a good ability to have.

About Neji vs Hinata: I agree that he probably didn't want to end the fight that quickly. I could tell that his initial intent was just to damage her spirit and not to just flat out win. Though I do have a hard time believing that the whole time he was hitting her tenketsu. She would have known and saw her own being hit. You did say "somehow" which I guess implies that you may not even know how he could accomplish this.

Thanks for reminding me about that. I certainly left it out and forgot about it in my two really long and "complete" posts. While this is a definite good ability of the Byakugan(and you already said this), it obviously has no real application in a fight unless we assume both ninja's start off at a distance from each other and have to find each other first. In this scenario, Byakugan is a far greater advantage.

As far as your car analogy goes with kaiten, I would say - GET A BETTER DRIVER!!! other than that, I would argue that the spin aspect of kaiten makes it both readable even without special eyes, and a necessity for the move happening effectively. Hence, without it, kaiten is far from absolute. It does suffice to explain why it didn't happen effectively against Naruto though. I personally would think that even with Naruto in the state he was, if kaiten started early enough, he would have been knocked back - or some other explanation as to why he *didn't* get knocked back would have to emerge. Logical one being that kyuubi's chakra is too great to stop.

Also as far as the spin stopping/finishing - another good explanation would be the fact that Naruto's strike was opposing that of the spin. And obviously being in "enhanced mode" would give Naruto the strength to do such a thing.

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Off gaurd when Neji was looking right into his eyes the whole time during the charge? Very little startup time is long "time" away from raikage's classifcation of "instant." I prefer an answer from raikage as that was directed towards him and he is best qualified to answer the question.


Replied to in relevant thread.

Neji was kind of surprised at the time of the extreme speed. I don't know. I'm not Neji. I'm just guessing like everyone else. However, we clearly saw that it had no startup time earlier when Naruto tried to punch him. And we saw pretty much no startup time when Hiashi pulled his big one on all the ninjas. Perhaps it needed to reach an optimal spin to deflect an attack the power of Naruto's like Blur said. That would make sense however, it's just a guess.

Replying to Raikage? Same thing IMO, since it's a forum and he can read my comment which is directed at him and you. I just didn't want to hassle myself in quoting everyone.

Relevant thread? Why does it matter when the comment was directed for you to read. In the end, I get the same intended result. lolz.

EPYON

[AnimeFangirl]

Originally Posted by epyon96

Neji was kind of surprised at the time of the extreme speed. I don't know. I'm not Neji. I'm just guessing like everyone else. However, we clearly saw that it had no startup time earlier when Naruto tried to punch him. And we saw pretty much no startup time when Hiashi pulled his big one on all the ninjas. Perhaps it needed to reach an optimal spin to deflect an attack the power of Naruto's like Blur said. That would make sense however, it's just a guess.

EPYON

I don't think there is much of a start up time either in the manga, but the anime made it look that way, especially when it had Hiashi twirling around five or six times like a $%#@ing ballerina. I'd waited YEARS to see that moment with the "super kaiten," so to speak and THIS was what I got? I mean, any ninja worth their salt should have pounced on him while he was doing his little dance, this isn't Princess Tutu!!

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by Dorfl

I don't think there is much of a start up time either in the manga, but the anime made it look that way, especially when it had Hiashi twirling around five or six times like a $%#@ing ballerina. I'd waited YEARS to see that moment with the "super kaiten," so to speak and THIS was what I got? I mean, any ninja worth their salt should have pounced on him while he was doing his little dance, this isn't Princess Tutu!!

You may be right about the initial couple of spins. However, the second you see the chakra, people went flying.

If someone starts spinning like that, the first reaction is usually not to run. But that's just a guess.

And also, I postulate that given the size of the radius of that particular attack's range, it is possible Hiashi had to do a couple more initial spins to activate it to that full or more powerful extent. The reason I say this is because when Neji did the attack to block Naruto's punches earlier on, there was clearly no delay at all but than again that was an attack of a lesser degree and the Naruto and Naruto clones were closer as well.

EPYON

[EbonySeraphim]

Originally Posted by epyon96

If someone starts spinning like that, the first reaction is usually not to run. But that's just a guess.

It's a bad one at that. If you saw someone in real life doing Naruto style hand seals would you run or expect something to happen? Of course not. In their world though, they would. In a world with infinite jutsu styles, I think it would be assumed that an attack would be coming, especially when an opponent you are in the middle of fighting started to move.

[epyon96]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

It's a bad one at that. If you saw someone in real life doing Naruto style hand seals would you run or expect something to happen? Of course not. In their world though, they would. In a world with infinite jutsu styles, I think it would be assumed that an attack would be coming, especially when an opponent you are in the middle of fighting started to move.

Perhaps you're right. I was sarcastic in my previous post because I don't know either.

However, maybe they suspected that whatever attack he was pulling can be dodged because they were confident in their speed. We have seen overconfident ninjas in Naruto before. lolz. Look no further than Naruto.

EPYON

[EbonySeraphim]

Originally Posted by epyon96

However, maybe they suspected that whatever attack he was pulling can be dodged because they were confident in their speed. We have seen overconfident ninjas in Naruto before. lolz. Look no further than Naruto.

If they were that overconfident, than they were obviously not too strong of ninja were they? My argument implied that I wasn't talking about ninjas that didn't suck.

I think this post replaces my shortest ever.

[EbonySeraphim]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

If they were that overconfident, than they were obviously not too strong of ninja were they? My argument implied that I was talking about ninjas that didn't suck.

I think this post replaces my shortest ever.

EDIT: Fixed grammatical problems.

[aptenergy]

Hi, this is my first post. I've been through some of the Hyuuga and Byakugan vs Sharingan threads, and a lot of the same old stuff is hashed again and again, so I felt a new thread would be okay. I think this deals with pretty specific things.

No matter what the rest of this post says, I think Sasuke will surpass Neji in some way, just because the structure of the series dictates it. Even though Neji is very strong and the Byakugan is very strong, I'd think that Kishimoto would make sure that Naruto and Sasuke are the strongest ninja period.

Spoiler:

I'm surprised that everyone seems to think that the Byakugan has reached its limit at this point. Everyone assumes that seeing the tenketsu, the Kaiten, and 64 hands of Hakke (or whatever you'd like to call it) are the only things the Byakugan can do.

In order to look at the Byakugan progression, I've got to compare its development in the series to Sharingan. So given the anime, here's a comparison:

Byakugan:
See chakra points and chakra flow
See 360 degrees
Kaiten - block (all?) attacks
Damage internal organs
64 hands of Hakke - prevent jutsu usage
(Probably) general heightened perception

Sharingan:
General heightened perception
See through any nin, gen, or taijutsu
Copy any non-bloodline jutsu
Induce illusions

At this point, I might venture to say that the two are equal, if used properly, in their own ways. If you have a Hyuuga fighting a Mountain ninja, I'd say he'd destroy the ninja as easily as an Uchiha would (I can't prove this, but I hope you get my point). Kakashi has shown what he can do, and Neji is an excellent viewing into the proper use of Byakugan.

But given the manga, here's what we've additionally learned about Byakugan and Sharingan:

Byakugan:
Blind spot is present

Sharingan (sorry, I don't know the exact names):
Mange Sharingan - basically destroy someone's spirit - genjutsu
Black Flame (Amaratetsu? sp?) - Burn through almost anything - ninjutsu

The two Sharingan moves are extremely powerful (coming from Itachi) and I'd bet that they are the culmination of the Sharingan technique, seeing as how Itachi killed every other Uchiha. By the way, I remember reading a post on the NarutoFan forums about a third move (ultra taijutsu, probably) that comes from the origin of the original Japanese names. So there's more to see.

Anyway, based off this, everyone concludes that Sharingan will always rule. But Kakashi states that Byakugan offers more insight than Sharingan does. And I'm not convinced that seeing 360 is enough, given that with the way ninja fight in Naruto, it almost seems like they already see 360 already. Seriously. Plus, Kimimaro doesn't have 360 vision, but he was able to take on multiple Naruto clones from all around him.

We've never seen someone like Itachi on the Hyuuga side. Given that, I tend to believe that there are more moves to Byakugan that we haven't seen yet. What kind of moves? I might follow along what Neji can already do - read someone's emotional state - and say that the culmination of the Byakugan might be the ability to figure what someone is actually thinking -- perhaps detecting strategies as well. Or predict a jutsu they'd use. Sure, Sharingan can replicate that move, but I think the ultimate Byakugan user would be able to observe and react to basically anything.

This would make Byakugan and Sharingan opposites of each other, in a way. Sharingan is very offensive, turning your moves against you and doing very direct, extreme damage. Byakugan is very defensive, seeing your moves and blocking them, and letting their offensive moves perform mostly disabling actions. In my mind, that's both sides of the same coin.

I'm sure I left out information, but I hope that I can get a nod of approval from both sides.

[Lexander]

Merge with Sharingan vs. Byakugan thread ...

please use the search button.

[Muad'Dib]

Originally Posted by Lexander

Merge with Sharingan vs. Byakugan thread ...

please use the search button.

Hmm, if you'd've read his post, he did already. That doesn't mean he was justified in creating a new thread, but he did.

Hmm, aptenergy, you need to put a lot of your post in spoiler tags. Unless you want to make this a manga readers only discussion, in which case you need to change the title of the thread to include [manga].

Still, I doubt this thread will be allowed to exist.

But, assuming it is, (and therefore not being a harasser) I think it's an interesting idea that the sharingan and byukugan are sorta opposites of each other, but you're not the first one to think of this, I'm sure. Still, it would explain why people are afraid of the sharingan and not the byukugan when both users appear strong--because the sharingan is much more offensive related.

[eLstar]

Originally Posted by aptenergy

Hi, this is my first post. I've been through some of the Hyuuga and Byakugan vs Sharingan threads, and a lot of the same old stuff is hashed again and again, so I felt a new thread would be okay. I think this deals with pretty specific things.

You're lucky I liked your post. Thread Merged.

[Lexander]

Eps ... I just skipped to his theory didn't bother reading the intro after "this is my first post"

I agree with what he said too ... it's just ... sooo much ... on ... it ... already ... all ... over ... the forum ...


To contribute to the discussion I just thought I'd add something:

A possible counter againtst the sharingan ... you activate your Byukugan ... and close your eyes. You can see him through your eyelids ... but guess what he can't use the sharingan to hipnotise.

[Chosen]

Manga Itachi Spoiler!

Spoiler:

IMO Sharingan is better atleast at Itachi's level! He can just stare at them and they can't move for 72hours! And I'm pretty sure that he could beat em up after before the 72 hours runs out

[sarcasteak]

Originally Posted by aptenergy

Spoiler for major manga reference:

But given the manga, here's what we've additionally learned about Byakugan and Sharingan:

Byakugan:
Blind spot is present

Sharingan:
Mangekyo Sharingan:
Tsukiyomi - basically destroy someone's spirit - genjutsu
Amaterasu - Burn through almost anything - ninjutsu

The two Sharingan moves are extremely powerful (coming from Itachi) and I'd bet that they are the culmination of the Sharingan technique, seeing as how Itachi killed every other Uchiha. By the way, I remember reading a post on the NarutoFan forums about a third move (ultra taijutsu, probably) that comes from the origin of the original Japanese names. So there's more to see.

We've never seen someone like Itachi on the Hyuuga side. Given that, I tend to believe that there are more moves to Byakugan that we haven't seen yet. What kind of moves? I might follow along what Neji can already do - read someone's emotional state - and say that the culmination of the Byakugan might be the ability to figure what someone is actually thinking -- perhaps detecting strategies as well. Or predict a jutsu they'd use. Sure, Sharingan can replicate that move, but I think the ultimate Byakugan user would be able to observe and react to basically anything.

This would make Byakugan and Sharingan opposites of each other, in a way. Sharingan is very offensive, turning your moves against you and doing very direct, extreme damage. Byakugan is very defensive, seeing your moves and blocking them, and letting their offensive moves perform mostly disabling actions. In my mind, that's both sides of the same coin.

I've liked the Susanowo theory, but someone has said that Chidori is already a "lightning" move...

Anyways, someone from the Hyuga clan (presumably Neji) needs to push Byakugan beyond its current limit (which I believe he has already reached) before we can make a judgement, but your theory is definitely a nice one.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by aptenergy

Hi, this is my first post. I've been through some of the Hyuuga and Byakugan vs Sharingan threads, and a lot of the same old stuff is hashed again and again, so I felt a new thread would be okay. I think this deals with pretty specific things.

Welcome to the forum!

Spoiler:

We've never seen someone like Itachi on the Hyuuga side. Given that, I tend to believe that there are more moves to Byakugan that we haven't seen yet. What kind of moves? I might follow along what Neji can already do - read someone's emotional state - and say that the culmination of the Byakugan might be the ability to figure what someone is actually thinking -- perhaps detecting strategies as well. Or predict a jutsu they'd use. Sure, Sharingan can replicate that move, but I think the ultimate Byakugan user would be able to observe and react to basically anything.

This would make Byakugan and Sharingan opposites of each other, in a way. Sharingan is very offensive, turning your moves against you and doing very direct, extreme damage. Byakugan is very defensive, seeing your moves and blocking them, and letting their offensive moves perform mostly disabling actions. In my mind, that's both sides of the same coin.

I'm sure I left out information, but I hope that I can get a nod of approval from both sides.

I'd like to see new abilities for the Byakugan as well, but that certainly isn't the direction I'd want it to go in. That's already pretty much Sharingan territory. I know you can't read your opponent's mind with the Sharingan, but nevertheless one of it's primary abilities is reading and PREDICTING your enemies attacks. For Byakugan to move in the same direction would be dumb imho.

Anyways, I wouldn't call the Byakugan more defensive than the Sharingan, since Sharingan allows you to read and react to your opponent's moves (note that the only way Sasuke was able to defend partially-transformed Gaara's attacks was with the Sharingan.) I also wouldn't call the Sharingan more offensive than the Byakugan, since the Byakugan opens up a whole new class of jyuuken attacks.

Spoiler:

So, basically all of the Sharingan's abilities basically boil down to three things: insight, extreme attention to detail and hypnotic ability (refer to Zabuza's analysis). Basically, copying jutsus, reading moves, etc. etc. is all due to this keen eye for details. At Sasuke's level, he has access to the keen eye and insight (reading moves and seeing through bunshins etc.) When we move up to Kakashi's level, we have the hypnosis. Now, note that when we see new abilities for the Sharingan from Itachi, it basically builds upon one of these abilities. His Tsukiyomi illusion is just extremely powerful eye hypnosis.

Now, the Byakugan's abilities thus far are insight and extreme attention to a wide area. Note that they both share insight (although Byakugan takes it further), but the attention factor is an exact opposite. The Sharingan allows you to focus on and notice subtleties of your opponent's chakra and movement which in turn allow you to predict what he is going to do, or copy his techniques.

The Byakugan, in an opposite fashion, allows you to observe the area all around you in a sphere simultaneously. So, I would assume that if there is a third attribute to the Byakugan, it would somehow stand opposite the eye hypnosis of the Sharingan (don't ask me what the heck that would be).

[aptenergy]

Thanks guys, I appreciate you all not slamming me. I thought that the [Spoilers] tag I had already would deflect most of it, but I guess [Manga] would probably have been more appropriate.

I think shadamehr makes some very good points. In my mind, if Neji does have a third sort of characteristic (Sharingan has insight, attention to detail, and hypnotic abilities, and Byakugan has insight and attention to a wide area), it'd 1) involve his eye and 2) involve Hakke.

From what I've gathered it appears as if Hakke is just a name (I don't know Japanese). Given that, when Neji is about to beat up Naruto with the 64 hands, he says "You're within the range of my Hakke" and we see the whole green yin yang deal... except it just seems like the green yin-yang circle was used to indicate range. Why use it to only indicate range and yet make it so fancy? It had divination signs, it had distance markers (like a target), etc.

Spoiler:

Likewise, when Neji faces off against Kidoumaru and uses the 64 hands, he also makes that same statement - you're within reach, and we see the yin-yang circle again.

Therefore, I'm under the impression that any attack would use this circle to accomplish its task. So

Spoiler:

Itachi could use his hypnosis when you looked at him, and

any eye move that Neji would use would require that you be within this circle. Given that Neji's Kaiten was pretty small, and Naruto was a fair distance from Neji, maybe Kaiten has the range of the first or second Hakke circle. This would make Hiashi's Hakke range incredible.

If we compare Sharingan to Byakugan, then the third characteristic would involve the eye. And like Shadamehr, I don't know what it'd be. Perhaps the effect of this move would increase as you got closer to a Byakugan user (again, the whole target thing). Also, I was differentiating Sharingan from Byakugan because Sharingan can react to things as they happen, while Byakugan would already know exactly what you're thinking before you even do it. So whatever strategy you'd want to use would fail - not because your opponent could react quickly, but your opponent would already know all of it.

So it wouldn't be an eye hypnosis, but it'd be the other side. In hypnosis, you're made to believe anything the hypnotist wants you to. In this type of move, there'd be no faking about your strategy and plans, but it's the Byakugan user who would know exactly what you're planning. This is what I thought when I was thinking about "increased insight." I'm not sure that Sharingan is used for predicting attacks - just a better reaction to them. Kakashi didn't realize Zabuza would fog things up, but he could deal with it more effectively than a normal ninja would.

I don't know, maybe I'm trying too hard to differentiate the two.

I agree that the Byakugan opens up the Jyuuken style, but that means "Gentle Fist," which would indicate your attack is not as much about devastation as it is about quickly, efficiently and calmly eliminating the target. It's not fancy, but it gets the job done. Besides, Jyuuken requires you to be within reach, and the ultimate Jyuuken move seems to be to disable someone. So you can kill people using Sharingan (turn their move against them) or Byakugan (disable them from doing anything to you). That's why I'd say that Byakugan is more on the defensive end.

[_Riku_]

the sharingan, why??? for the power, I mean mangekyou sharingan would whoop any byakugan user, people has said, "byakugan can see through mange, ehm nope, Itachi said clearly "only a sharingan user on the same level can stand a chance against it

[Tatay]

Originally Posted by uglypigs

yAy its 1 of these! awesome1 i ch00se byukn because i want to l00k thr0gh g1rls sk1rts!

sorry im a jackass.

haha, lol me too