How should we react to visual gameplays' featuring disturbing themes?

[Irenicus]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

To be honest I see a bigger problem with the more violent, vicious action games (those with intestines and blood etc.), and the inspiration it causes to the minors who are illegally playing it. And they are much more mainstream anyway. Isn't murdering people worse, than having forced sexual intercourse anyway?

It could be said with a straight face in some cases that murder is mercy when it comes to how deep a wound one can inflict with rape. That's not because murder is nice or even remotely not-not nice, but because rape tends to be just that horrible*. Regardless, I find your position greatly problematic, even somewhat hypocritical. If a game really provokes an act of rape or murder or Grand Theft Auto-inspired roadkill in an otherwise normal person, then all of them should be banned. If they don't -- and there's lots of evidence that it's very unlikely -- then that argument for banning fails.

*This is not some sort of pseudo-pragmatic cynical acceptance of murder, just to be clear.


On the other hand, it's a game. Complicated social issues are involved, yes, especially in patriarchal Japan, but the ban-wagon is a weapon best used extremely sparingly. Do you know that oftentimes when idiotic school boards in the USA ban a book, it usually means the book is going to get a sales boost shortly afterwards? Such is the power of the ban-stick. I mean, I didn't even know this thing exists until there's news about how horrible it is coming up.

[yezhanquan]

There is a reason why rape is used as a war policy. It instills terror and fear, which can backfire spectacularly (see the Japanese during the Pacific War). However, more frequently, it cripples entire communities.

On the individual level, it also cripples, if you allow it to.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Boston Herald.com

In the computer game, developed and first sold in 2006 by a Yokohama-based game software maker, a player gropes two girls — who appear to be teenagers — and their mother while in a subway carriage, then confines and rapes the three, making them pregnant. The player then forces the three to terminate their pregnancies. In the game, the more violence a player uses on the female characters, the more points the player scores.

Playing devil's advocate here. While comprehensive sex education helps to guide kids towards wholesome sexual behaviour, games like the one described above doesn't make the learning process any easier, does it?

[Daniel E.]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

On the other hand, it's a game. Complicated social issues are involved, yes, especially in patriarchal Japan, but the ban-wagon is a weapon best used extremely sparingly. Do you know that oftentimes when idiotic school boards in the USA ban a book, it usually means the book is going to get a sales boost shortly afterwards? Such is the power of the ban-stick. I mean, I didn't even know this thing exists until there's news about how horrible it is coming up.

There was a movie produced here in Mexico called "El Crimen del Padre Amaro", wich is basically a story about a young priest that decided to have sexual relations with a girl, who eventually ends up pregnant with the priest's child. When they first heard about it, the church leaders here got furious and demanded that the movie would not be shown anywhere in the country.

At that point, not many people had heard about the movie and it was none other that the church's complaints that got the word out in the end.

El Crimen del Padre Amaro was a hit across the country and the church's attempt to ban the movie was the number one advertisement tool behind said success.

So yeah, beware the ban-stick. It can have a completly different effect in some cases.

[yezhanquan]

People want the ability to judge for themselves. Hence, once the hoo-ha is raised, they want to see and judge for themselves.

[Kusa-San]

Well it will be my last post in this thread because I find some post really schocking. Saying that Law and Order: SVU and game raping is the same is extremely dangerous for me. Law and Order: SVU teach you that rape is really bad, really terrible and all. And that teach you that there is person who are here to fight against this kind of disgusting behaviour. A rape game just teach you that rapping is good. And you're telling me that's the same thing ? What the Hell is that ?

Secondly saying that we can't ban rape game because maybe later it will lead to ban some other thing is just a stupid argument. I mean if we have this kind of reasoning then we can tolerate everything. Democraty != anarchy.

Futhermore, for me, people who enjoy playing rape game, really need to see a specialist because it's cleary not right to enjoy such disgusting thing.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Well it will be my last post in this thread because I find some post really schocking. Saying that Law and Order: SVU and game raping is the same is extremely dangerous for me. Law and Order: SVU teach you that rape is really bad, really terrible and all. And that teach you that there is person who are here to fight against this kind of disgusting behaviour. A rape game just teach you that rapping is good. And you're telling me that's the same thing ? What the Hell is that ?

You know what we should go after first? The Old Testament. It's a highly influential work - more so than RapeLay will ever be - and yet it dares to present genocide, murder, and the occasional rape in a positive light. As long as it's the protagonists doing it.

Secondly saying that we can't ban rape game because maybe later it will lead to ban some other thing is just a stupid argument. I mean if we have this kind of reasoning then we can tolerate everything. Democraty != anarchy.

Nevertheless. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone - and no, being offended doesn't count as being hurt - on what grounds should we ban anything?

Futhermore, for me, people who enjoy playing rape game, really need to see a specialist because it's cleary not right to enjoy such disgusting thing.

I think the same thing about watching sports. What the hell is wrong with those guys?

[yezhanquan]

Do we want to become a society which practise the maxim "Whoever is with me shall thrive, and whoever opposes me shall be crushed"?

While I agree that there are limits to everything, what I do behind closed doors should be my own business. As some have noted, the ban-hammer has the nasty side effect of drawing attention to the thing that's being banned.

[izmosmolnar]

Well it seems my post aren't clear enough.
No I'm not saying rape is a good thing (my opinion is the opposite on that matter as I said earlier), however there are several game-titles where it's just a tool to make the reader feel bad and ashamed of himself (because of the wrong choices he made earlier, because the protagonist is drunk/drugged/insane/magically charmed etc).
IMO they don't glorify raping in any way (or if they do for someone, then that someone is indeed in a serious need of psychological assistance). And I'm somehow sad, my opinion led you to believe like I'm out of my mind, if you addressed that part to me. I don't enjoy those aspects, but I can bear with them, because they don't play major parts in the main storyline, and most of the time they even lead to a so called "bad end" (which means like "dead end, try again better next time").
My fear is that such titles could be banned with the same argument, and I would prefer if those who are deciding about those matters, would take such things in consideration, before instantly banning every game that involves rape of any kind. Additionally if eventually they indeed ban every of those VN-s, why not start banning games with the horroristical aspects? That's why I fear they could ban different things soon after.

I don't even say I enjoy such aspects, please don't misunderstand my words. I honestly dislike the concept of rape, and I could never imagine my real world self in the same situation. Does the same generalization means, I must be a potential murderer if I play with vicious actiongames?
However it's not my fault, it's kinda a "fetish" for the Japanese males, and the Visual Novels translated in english are keeping them.
The simplest solution of the matter would be changing such scenes yeah, but isn't that too much liberty in localization?

[Throne Invader]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Well it will be my last post in this thread because I find some post really schocking. Saying that Law and Order: SVU and game raping is the same is extremely dangerous for me. Law and Order: SVU teach you that rape is really bad, really terrible and all. And that teach you that there is person who are here to fight against this kind of disgusting behaviour. A rape game just teach you that rapping is good. And you're telling me that's the same thing ? What the Hell is that ?

Secondly saying that we can't ban rape game because maybe later it will lead to ban some other thing is just a stupid argument. I mean if we have this kind of reasoning then we can tolerate everything. Democraty != anarchy.

Futhermore, for me, people who enjoy playing rape game, really need to see a specialist because it's cleary not right to enjoy such disgusting thing.

It's about time someone posted a butt-kicking post. Go Kusa!!!

[sa547]

Slightly off-topic: Rapeplay causes intense news scrutiny in Japan, prompting the game's final domestic pull-out.
http://zepy.momotato.com/2009/05/09/...apanese-media/

On-topic: I play some wide range of games, but there are certain limits to which whatever happens in real life is depicted in a game, and certain limits I can tolerate certain human acts. I want to play something, but not to the extent that it has to be too destructive -- rape, pillage, gore -- that anyone else would start asking if I must be nuts.

There will be games that we may have to keep kids out of reach because I still believe that this still-rough world wasn't made for children and never decorated with rainbows and balloons; so we have to prepare them for such eventualities and tell them to understand carefully that what happens in the game (or anything else in mass media) should never be stupidly reenacted in real life as a means of a twisted emotional outlet.

Which is why parents should heed game or media rating labels on anything that they are about to buy, and know the true meaning of the words "Parental Guidance" (yeah, unfortunately it's so used in local Philippine television that it has become pointless).

[yezhanquan]

The main issues on rape are that
1) Most rapes are committed not by strangers. The victims often know the rapist.

2) Many cases go unreported, both man-on-woman AND woman-on-man.

3) In male-dominated industries, there are plenty of such cases which went unreported. The NYT ran an article on rape in the US military. Shocking stuff.

I don't see how finding a scapegoat in sim games would help address these issues.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Irenicus

On the other hand, it's a game. Complicated social issues are involved, yes, especially in patriarchal Japan, but the ban-wagon is a weapon best used extremely sparingly. Do you know that oftentimes when idiotic school boards in the USA ban a book, it usually means the book is going to get a sales boost shortly afterwards? Such is the power of the ban-stick. I mean, I didn't even know this thing exists until there's news about how horrible it is coming up.

That stick is not going to be as clean as the visual gameplay once it gets shoved up the ass of the wielder. There is a limit to how much it can be used. Then again, if it is going to get shoved up the asses of different people, it is going to spread STDs, even to the wielder. Thus anti-vice lobbyists often become hypocrites and hypochondriacs in their own right.*

The recent woman-on-man case in Russia (in which a female hairdresser captured and raped a robber for a week) pretty much shows how decadent our society is. Zhanquan is right, random rapes are uncommon as compared to rapes by a known person, other than the abovementioned. Also is the scapegoating of sim games, it is just entertainment, and it is known that people like to "delegate responsibility" which they screwed up, just like Columbine and Virginia Tech. It is the social pressure that causes such things to happen, and could be avoided if we become less aloof to "emos, LGBTs, madmen, etc".

All that name branding has to stop first.

* - Pardon my metaphor, I hope it should be direct enough in the face of that issue.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Secondly saying that we can't ban rape game because maybe later it will lead to ban some other thing is just a stupid argument. I mean if we have this kind of reasoning then we can tolerate everything. Democraty != anarchy.

The bottom line is, it's a game with no victims. Many of you claim it leads to further violence in the real world, but there is no evidence of that. Do you truly think it is a good idea to allow your government to pick and choose what you're allowed to do in the safety of your own home, based on nothing more than "I feel that it is bad?" You really don't see any danger in that?

[yezhanquan]

See my above post: What I do to myself behind my own closed doors (and if it stays within those closed doors) is my own business.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Going again on the devil's tack: If everything portrayed in a game, described in speech, played on TV screens or radio programmes is harmless until someone decides to act on what he "learns" from the media, then why have so many people in the world, Americans especially, become so touchy about racist topics?

In the American military, for example, any soldier espousing racial hate won't last long in his career (as depicted in Mel Gibson's documentary, Carrier, which I've enjoyed recently on the National Geographic Channel). It didn't matter for the most part that a white serviceman portrayed in the documentary generally managed to get things done in spite of working together with a mix of many different races in the crew of the USS Nimitz — he still got booted for calling a nigger a nigger. I mean, one could applaud his courage in expressing his thoughts freely, so long as he doesn't actually physically discriminate against people of other skin colours, no?

So, if one is not allowed to say racist things in public in the United States, because *gosh* it's so insensitive and bigoted to do so, then why can't the same principle apply to banning rape-play in computer games, because let's face it, who in the right mind actually wants to promote such acts?

(If you do, then I don't want to know you. Please go see a counseller as soon as possible, I beg you.)

[Kagedanji]

Behold, the timeline of events of this "crisis".

2006

• Rapelay is released in Japan

2006-2008

• Fellow eroge enthusiasts bring the game to the US, it is enjoyed

2008-2009

• Eroge enthusiast boy is caught playing game by proactive mother
• Proactive mother is disgusted, tells all her friends, complains to news
• News sources take complaints and use it as news material
• Equality Now reads news and rages
• Japan is attacked for making a game that was legally released in their country 3 years ago

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Going again on the devil's tack: If everything portrayed in a game, described in speech, played on TV screens or radio programmes is harmless until someone decides to act on what he "learns" from the media, then why have so many people in the world, Americans especially, become so touchy about racist topics?

In the American military, for example, any soldier espousing racial hate won't last long in his career (as depicted in Mel Gibson's documentary, Carrier, which I've enjoyed recently on the National Geographic Channel). It didn't matter for the most part that a white serviceman portrayed in the documentary generally managed to get things done in spite of working together with a mix of many different races in the crew of the USS Nimitz — he still got booted for calling a nigger a nigger. I mean, one could applaud his courage in expressing his thoughts freely, so long as he doesn't actually physically discriminate against people of other skin colours, no?

So, if one is not allowed to say racist things in public in the United States, because *gosh* it's so insensitive and bigoted to do so, then why can't the same principle apply to banning rape-play in computer games, because let's face it, who in the right mind actually wants to promote such acts?

(If you do, then I don't want to know you. Please go see a counseller as soon as possible, I beg you.)

I would suspect many of the people who would argue against this game being banned would argue against the hypersensitive racial policies as well. I certainly would. There is a fairly prominent feeling that this country has become too "politically correct."

[Vexx]

One thing I find interesting in this banter is that the positions on how to implement freedom of expression are correlated with the norms of the country the poster has listed.
Germans, for example, are more okay with banning items of violence (they already have some draconian laws in place that affect games of combat) The French are quite mixed (well, Narona is approaching it from her legal background more than anything). Americans tend to be "don't ban anything because we've experienced that slippery slope. Complain away about it as a citizen - but having government enforce suppression leads down a bad road"

Much as I loathe racism in TRL's example, I wasn't happy with their reaction to his views (I would have recommended him for counseling classes) - however, the military is what I'd call a "special situation" in that teammanship is so vital that having irrational views and using disrespectful language is not equivalent to playing a disgusting game in your free time.
Free society versus military cohesion - reacting to someone hating fundamental attributes about a person rather than things they can change.

Actually, you *are* allowed to say such racist things in public (though people may also express themselves by throwing tomatos at you). If you work for the military or most any company though -- you're now a representative of that organization and must blend seamlessly into it.

I'd like to point out that when I dispute other positions, I'm taking the "perhaps you don't understand the big picture" tack... whereas the ones reacting viscerally to the object in question are telling me and others that we're sick and need psychiatric help. Not exactly a reasoned discussion, eh?
I'll give jazzrat some debate points though for actually pointing out good counterpoints without resorting to demonization.

thanks to kagedanji for pointing out the "news cycle" nature of this somewhat manufactured crisis.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Vexx

If you work for the military or most any company though -- you're now a representative of that organization and must blend seamlessly into it.

Now, for the sake of argument, I could also say that I'm acting on the behalf of my predominantly conservative Asian society, which loathes disgusting ideas such as "promoting rape", and say that rape-simulation games must be banned, for our children's sake.

As you've pointed out, different societies in different countries have the democratic right to draw the lines of morally acceptable thought and behaviour, for the sake of civil and peaceful society.

(Germany, incidentally, had just dropped a proposed ban on paintball — a reaction to the recent gun-related massacre at a public school — but its ban on many violent video games still stay. Conservative Christianity, incidentally, happens to have a strong political voice in Germany. Bizzarely enough, it coexists with very open-minded social views on pornography. )

I'm all for free speech but, at the same time, I recognise that every society also has the freedom to exercise its own self-imposed limits to free expression. Saying everything must be free is a noble ideal, enshrined in the American constitution, but not every country in the world is the United States, unfortunately.