Fate/ Series - Requests for new threads

[phishmeister68]

Can I make a thread called, My Fate/stay Night VN diary?
I'm going back reading the VN again, but I just need an outlet right now, because of these parts:

No, unlike Gae Bolg, that allows you to find a countermeasure once you find out it will go for the heart, there are no possible counters for Assassin’s secret technique even when you know about it.

If there is a countermeasure, it is only not to let him use it.

To beat it, she must attack him with her strongest blow before Assassin uses that technique---

It's talking about Assassin, Sasaki Kojirou's Tsubame Geashi.

Because I'm like, what countermeasures are there for Gae Bolg? Beside Rhos Aias, Shirou, Rin, and Saber doesn't know about Rho Aias anyway, so if faced with Lancer again, what countermeasure are there to prevent Gae Bolg? Nothing!!!

Anyway, I wasn't planning on doing this thread, but those parts bugs me. Now I need an outlet.

So what I'm thinking is doing a diary, where I'll go back to the prologue, then day 1, day 2, ect in chronological order, and just share some bits and pieces of the VN and share my thoughts, my musings, things that bug me, things that amuse me.

Everybody knows the Shirou meme, "People die if they are killed" right?

I'm up to day 6, Saber vs Assassin interlude, but way before that event, Saber said something similar. I find that amusing. I can find that line and share it, and yea, that's the template. I share some parts of the VN here, then I say what I think.

I've read the forum rules where if you wanna make a thread, be considerate of existing thread, so I've thought about the existing 'F/SN VN game discussion thread'.

But I just want a diary, noting things as it happened in chronological order, so that thread wouldn't fit. If granted, it does tantamount to giving my own personal space in this forum. But that's what I would like. Hope my fellow forum members wouldn't mind, nor do the mods.

[Lorhand]

You can make a blog on blogspot/wordpress/whatever and then post the link on the game discussion forums too, you know? Seorin didn't exactly do what you intend to do, but it's similar.

Offtopic: Also, I find people who make fun of a common Japanese idiom no longer amusing. Rin says that line too and many people before Shirou did too, so what?

And while I'm at it (questions about the game usually belong in the Q&A thread), Gae Bolg's reversed-cause-and-effect curse can be avoided with a high Luck parameter or by simply getting out of range when you notice his unique stance when he intends to use it. The Gae Bolg attack he used against Archer is a different attack.

[GreyZone]

So since the first episode is quite close by, I wanted once again ask what the spoiler policies will be regarding the VN, F/Z, DEEN/sn, DEEN/UBW and all the other spin-offs?

[phishmeister68]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

You can make a blog on blogspot/wordpress/whatever and then post the link on the game discussion forums too, you know? Seorin didn't exactly do what you intend to do, but it's similar.

Offtopic: Also, I find people who make fun of a common Japanese idiom no longer amusing. Rin says that line too and many people before Shirou did too, so what?

And while I'm at it (questions about the game usually belong in the Q&A thread), Gae Bolg's reversed-cause-and-effect curse can be avoided with a high Luck parameter or by simply getting out of range when you notice his unique stance when he intends to use it. The Gae Bolg attack he used against Archer is a different attack.

Would consider blogspot. Anyway, I wanna respond to some of the things you've said. I'll make a post here so you can see, but I'll repost it in the game discussion, so we won't be posting here again about game discussion.

That Shirou meme, if you call it a Japanese idiom. I've only heard that from Fate/stay night. I've never heard something similar from other anime/mangas from a time when you can call me an otaku.

Also, Saber only survive Gae Bolg, but she didn't avoid getting hurt. After that attack, you would just feel fortunate Saber is blessed with good fortune.

Shirou is partnering with Rin, so you have to take Archer into account, how will Archer counter against it?

And the in game discussion about Lancer never talked about avoiding Gae Bolg by getting out of range, so I have to assume that's not possible. Have to get with the flow of the game.

Anyway, besides the flow of the game, even I don't think running to get out of range would work anyway. It just wouldn't work against the cause and effect curse. Plus, it's hard to be out of Lancer's range.

Then you have to ask, how fast can Lancer do his Gae Bolg. I have to say pretty fast, being Gae Bolg is anti-personnel.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by White Manju Bun

Then request one.

Then I'm doing that. This refers to this post.

I think we need a thread for experienced F/SN fans who will be able to freely discuss the episodes there, and in fact be encouraged to post only there. We have this one , but it was said early it wasn't meant to duplicate the episode threads. However, that's exactly what we need! Telling VN readers to discuss the episodes in the same threads as anime only watchers is going to lead to another disaster. These kind of threads are never a good environment for anime only viewers. I know that from experience, it happens every damn season with your super popular LN adaptation. That's the reason I've long since given up on visiting these sub-forums. Just look at the episode 0 thread. Spoilers are flying around everywhere already. It's not like mods are robots able to delete spoilers the second they're posted, people are going to get spoiled at some point.

That would divide the fanbase? The fanbase is already divided. VN readers have an entire different world of knowledge. They'll never be able to have normal discussions with people only familiar with the anime adaptations.

Furthermore, the Fate fanbase on AS seems big enough that it would warrant special solutions being put in place.

There's also the matter of F/Z spoilers, but that's a different one. That's something that should have been discussed with the community in my opinion. I'm fairly confident the vast majority of the current UBW viewers have seen Fate/Zero given how popular its threads were here at the time, so I don't see why these people, who are also anime only watchers, would have to go through the trouble of using spoiler tags to talk about a series directly related to the current one. And what for? I've counted only one Fate virgin in the episode 0 thread, I doubt there are that much more of them. If they haven't watched the prequel to the anime they're currently watching, it's their problem, not AS'. I know it's a really special case given that F/Z is a prequel that was originally released after the VN, but the anime adaptation was intentionally noob friendly. There's no reason not to watch it, since F/SN and F/Z both spoil each other anyway. The ride is interesting no matter which order you choose. In fact, I'm highly interested in finding out how F/Z will react to F/SN's events.
Right now, you are alienating the F/Z fanbase in order to accommodate a handful of people. I can't see that as a good thing.

Well, I've said my piece. Make of that what you will.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, I totally agree. It's ridiculous to not have a thread for discussing the episodes where spoilers are freely allowed, there are simply too many people in the fandom who already know what is going on. The seperate spoiler thread is not enough because people are not going to split their posts into a "spoiler" part and a "non-spoiler" part. They're just going to post everything in one thread or the other.

[Theminimanx]

Another supporter here. The seperate comparison thread simply doesn't suffice, because having to divide your reactions between spoiler and non-spoiler stuff simply isn't going to happen, so people start posting in the thread that seems the most related to the overall message of their post: the episode thread.
While I can understand the logic behind not wanting VN-readers to spoil future events, not being able to compare this to the DEEN anime is kind of ridiculous.

At the very least start a poll to figure out how many people are already familiar with what parts of the franchise, and base the spoiler policy around that. If it turns out that almost everyone has already seen Zero and/or DEEN, let that be discussed freely. If it turns out that there is a significant number of people unfamiliar with it, then I will happily retract my argument.

[GDB]

At the very least, can we get an "experienced" episode thread in addition to the current one (for episodes) like how Sailor Moon has a normal and an experienced one? And from there, maybe update the comparisons thread to allow discussion beyond the current episode?

Otherwise you have:
1) No spoiler episodic threads
2) Non-VN Experience episodic Thread
3) VN Spoiler episodic thread
4) All encompassing spoiler thread (current one since announcement)
5) Game thread

[relentlessflame]

First of all, the current policy actually does allow you to compare to the Fate/Zero anime and the previous Fate/stay night anime in episode threads. All we ask is that you use properly-labelled spoiler tags for such a comparison. I don't think this is very much to ask, as creating a spoiler tag is very easy, and there's a button that does it for you. It won't hurt to use tags for that.

We will consider the issue about episode threads as it relates to VN information, but I'm personally not very fond of the idea of creating duplicate threads for all sorts of different demographics, because the amount of combinations is very high (particularly in this franchise). We did try something like this with Fate/Zero when it was out, and it was very confusing and fracturing (plus people still did visit the threads that didn't apply to their knowledge to try to spoil others anyway). We've done various other experiments in splitting threads, and they have had mixed results. No matter what you do, there is no ideal solution to this problem that I've seen.

Anyway, the staff will discuss this and consider some options, but I'd ask everyone to please use the threads as they are for now. My point in saying is that the two threads weren't meant to be duplicates is that a) we don't want people to double-post between the threads, and b) we don't want the very same conversations having in two different threads when spoilers aren't even involved at all (so the whole conversation could have happened in one thread). If you want to make a post about the episode and spoilers/VN comparisons are an essential part of the comment, then use the spoiler thread. Clearly, discussions in that thread will be about the episodes anyway (since it is discussing the anime).

[Kanon]

It's good to know this is being considered. It's all I ask. Thanks.

Just one more thing...

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

First of all, the current policy actually does allow you to compare to the Fate/Zero anime and the previous Fate/stay night anime in episode threads. All we ask is that you use properly-labelled spoiler tags for such a comparison. I don't think this is very much to ask, as creating a spoiler tag is very easy, and there's a button that does it for you. It won't hurt to use tags for that.

It's kind of annoying. It isn't only about hitting a button, you also have to carefully think about which part of your posts are spoilers, which can sometimes be tricky given that a lot of critical information to F/SN are given casually in F/Z, making it seem like they're not that important. It's easy to let spoilers slip since your mind may have filed some information as "common knowledge for the series", some people may not even realize the things they post are spoilers. But this isn't the crux of the issue for me. What bothers me is the very concept of having to use spoiler tags to discuss an anime directly related to the one airing. It's like forbidding people from talking about Jojo S1 in the Stardust Crusaders threads. It just makes no sense. Just because it isn't required to watch F/Z to enjoy UBW doesn't mean it shouldn't be watched. If some people haven't watched it, it's not our problem. Just like it wasn't our problem that some people jumped on Stardust Crusaders or Mushishi S2 without watching the previous series. F/Z is recent, it's by the same studio, and it's easily available. If people are truly interested in the franchise, they can watch it. No reason for them not to. F/Z and F/SN can be enjoyed in any order you want.

Forbidding any spoilers from the original F/SN is also dubious. It's not like UFOtable's new adaptation is meant to replace DEEN's. UBW is a remake of the movie, not of the series. Both of them adapt different routes/storylines. They're complementary works. In fact, they were originally just one work. It's really weird not being able to talk about what constitutes one third of "Fate/Stay Night". Now, I know DEEN's Fate has a very bad reputation, but it's a decent enough adaptation for those allergic to Visual Novels.

Originally Posted by Theminimanx

At the very least start a poll to figure out how many people are already familiar with what parts of the franchise, and base the spoiler policy around that. If it turns out that almost everyone has already seen Zero and/or DEEN, let that be discussed freely. If it turns out that there is a significant number of people unfamiliar with it, then I will happily retract my argument.

This. A poll would tremendously help. I think almost everybody has seen Zero, perhaps the mods think the opposite, but the truth is, we don't know for sure. We can't make decisions based on assumptions.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It's good to know this is being considered. It's all I ask. Thanks.

Just one more thing...



It's kind of annoying. It isn't only about hitting a button, you also have to carefully think about which part of your posts are spoilers, which can sometimes be tricky given that a lot of critical information to F/SN are given casually in F/Z, making it seem like they're not that important. It's easy to let spoilers slip since your mind may have filed some information as "common knowledge for the series", some people may not even realize the things they post are spoilers.

I would probably be good to have separate episode threads for experienced Unlimited Blade Work viewers, but I can also see the reasoning against it.

But this isn't the crux of the issue for me. What bothers me is the very concept of having to use spoiler tags to discuss an anime directly related to the one airing. It's like forbidding people from talking about Jojo S1 in the Stardust Crusaders threads. It just makes no sense. Just because it isn't required to watch F/Z to enjoy UBW doesn't mean it shouldn't be watched. If some people haven't watched it, it's not our problem. Just like it wasn't our problem that some people jumped on Stardust Crusaders or Mushishi S2 without watching the previous series. F/Z is recent, it's by the same studio, and it's easily available. If people are truly interested in the franchise, they can watch it. No reason for them not to. F/Z and F/SN can be enjoyed in any order you want.

Forbidding any spoilers from the original F/SN is also dubious. It's not like UFOtable's new adaptation is meant to replace DEEN's. UBW is a remake of the movie, not of the series. Both of them adapt different routes/storylines. They're complementary works. In fact, they were originally just one work. It's really weird not being able to talk about what constitutes one third of "Fate/Stay Night". Now, I know DEEN's Fate has a very bad reputation, but it's a decent enough adaptation for those allergic to Visual Novels.



This. A poll would tremendously help. I think almost everybody has seen Zero, perhaps the mods think the opposite, but the truth is, we don't know for sure. We can't make decisions based on assumptions.

I disagree with your reasoning for why it doesn't make sense to not be able to speak freely about the different Fate products in the episode threads.

Fate/Zero for example could be seen before Fate/Stay Night, but it isn't the optimal way to see it.

Spoiler for Fate/Zero:

Fate/Zero was intended by the writer to be seen as a tragedy. It is story not about who is going to win, but rather how is everyone going to lose. For this to be possible knowledge from F/SN is needed. I recommend to see this video for a better explanation of this point. Another reason against seeing it, is because it spoils some major twist from F/SN. For example Gilgamesh being alive, Rin and Sakura being sisters, Shirou and Ilya being related. Spoiler the other way around like my previous point makes clear.

Even if some people want to watch F/Z before F/SN it is detached enough from F/SN that it can't be assumed that is the logical follow up to F/SN like your JoJo season comparison implies.

The work for which your argument can be made the most would be that for Deen's version of F/SN. It is based on the Fate route making it the logical prequel to have seen before watching a UBW adaption. This only problem is that it isn't of a very high quality and that many people don't it very much. It has also been done by a different studio making it stylistic different from the new UBW series. For this reason I would say that it is more logical to expect Ufotable UBW being a prequel which must be watched before seeing the Heaven's Feel movie(s) than Deen's UFO being a prequel which must be watched before seeing Ufotable's UBW. There is also still the possibility that Ufotable has added some of the missing information from Fate route to their UBW adaption.

In the end the argument I want to make is that it isn't fair to obligate new UBW viewers to have seen Fate/Zero and studio Deen's version of F/SN. They have the right to see the new UBW series as a stand alone series without getting spoiled.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

In the end the argument I want to make is that it isn't fair to obligate new UBW viewers to have seen Fate/Zero and studio Deen's version of F/SN. They have the right to see the new UBW series as a stand alone series without getting spoiled.

Yes, but I think there should be a discussion thread for people who have seen everything to post in (even if you require spoiler-tags for some of it, like game information), because there are far too many of us for that not to make sense. It's ridiculous to expect people to break their posts in two parts according to spoilers, so people just won't.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yes, but I think there should be a discussion thread for people who have seen everything to post in (even if you require spoiler-tags for some of it, like game information), because there are far too many of us for that not to make sense. It's ridiculous to expect people to break their posts in two parts according to spoilers, so people just won't.

I agree with that, that is why I said this:

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

I would probably be good to have separate episode threads for experienced Unlimited Blade Work viewers, but I can also see the reasoning against it.

It would be a lot easier if there where two types of episode threads.

[Oobaew]

You gonna come to a decision before Sat?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yes, but I think there should be a discussion thread for people who have seen everything to post in (even if you require spoiler-tags for some of it, like game information), because there are far too many of us for that not to make sense. It's ridiculous to expect people to break their posts in two parts according to spoilers, so people just won't.

Honestly... my sympathy for this is sort of limited. I have been a source reader for some anime before (a good number of VN adaptations in particular), and it does require a bit of work, but it really isn't that hard. All you need to do is to consider the feelings of anime-only viewers when you write your post and remember that other people deserve to have an untainted first-time experience. So if you want to participate in the episode thread, you frame it accordingly. Conversation between source-readers for things that relate to the source goes in the other thread. It's not ridiculous, but it does require changing your way of thinking a little bit.

If people don't want to put in some effort to organize their thoughts for the benefits of the community at large, this may not be the site for them, and that's okay with me.


That being said, we are still considering various options (one option of course being the status quo). For now, again, I'd ask that everyone put in the effort to follow the rules that are in place.

[GDB]

I'd agree normally, but Fate/ is in a somewhat unique situation that I don't really recall happening too often. Sailor Moon is going through it and got two threads, DBZ is technically going through it but no one cares since it's just a remaster, and I think there may have been some Key anime from a decade ago that went through it. That is, it had an anime, and now is getting a new one.

So the main issue, in my opinion, isn't the source material. After all, that can continue in the spoilers and speculation thread. It's ancillary material like the DEENime, the movie, Fate/Zero, and even Carnival Phantasm and Prisma Illya. Where is that supposed to go? They can't go to the regular spoilers thread since they'd get source material spoilers. They can't go to the comparisons thread because they'd hit the same wall that source material readers have where they can't go beyond the current episode. And they have to tread the regular episode thread as if they don't know anything about the series itself despite all the other series. That's the issue, as I see it.

[Rising Dragon]

Basically, the various Type-MOON medias are too closely interconnected to each other and relevant to one another that you'll end up spoiling something somewhere.

[Jaden]

Fate/Stay Night is popular, but is also rather old. I think there's going to be a lot of naive viewers, especially if the anime keeps up its high quality. It's probably best to have episode threads without spoilers. I remember engaging in a lot of fun speculative discussion when the Higurashi anime was airing. The spoiler policy and mods made that possible even though a lot of people were twitching to spoil me.

For those of us who already know the story, I think the game thread and source comparison thread are enough. Let's be real, the only good content we put in the episodic threads is going to be by Archon_Wing anyways.

[Theminimanx]

Originally Posted by GDB

So the main issue, in my opinion, isn't the source material. After all, that can continue in the spoilers and speculation thread. It's ancillary material like the DEENime, the movie, Fate/Zero, and even Carnival Phantasm and Prisma Illya. Where is that supposed to go? They can't go to the regular spoilers thread since they'd get source material spoilers. They can't go to the comparisons thread because they'd hit the same wall that source material readers have where they can't go beyond the current episode. And they have to tread the regular episode thread as if they don't know anything about the series itself despite all the other series. That's the issue, as I see it.

This. Being able to discuss what happens in Fate/Zero does not leave people incapable of wondering what will happen in UBW.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Honestly... my sympathy for this is sort of limited. I have been a source reader for some anime before (a good number of VN adaptations in particular), and it does require a bit of work, but it really isn't that hard. All you need to do is to consider the feelings of anime-only viewers when you write your post and remember that other people deserve to have an untainted first-time experience. So if you want to participate in the episode thread, you frame it accordingly. Conversation between source-readers for things that relate to the source goes in the other thread. It's not ridiculous, but it does require changing your way of thinking a little bit.

And what about those of us who aren't anime-only viewers? Do we not matter?

If people don't want to put in some effort to organize their thoughts for the benefits of the community at large, this may not be the site for them, and that's okay with me.

So, I don't count as part of the "community" because I've seen the VN...?

Originally Posted by Jaden

Fate/Stay Night is popular, but is also rather old. I think there's going to be a lot of naive viewers, especially if the anime keeps up its high quality. It's probably best to have episode threads without spoilers. I remember engaging in a lot of fun speculative discussion when the Higurashi anime was airing. The spoiler policy and mods made that possible even though a lot of people were twitching to spoil me.

And why not have both? Why is that such a damn difficult concept to understand?