Abilities and Technologies: Speculation based on Science, Metaphysics, and Magic

[desrtsku]

But not just a dragon.

People tends to forget what the strongest Dragons in fiction can do. I'm disappoint.

its only a SYMBOL but why take form of the dragon that we are all familiar with?

Holy crap, so this is what you guys are complaining about?
I'll return the question right back at you : the Dragon in the Book Of revelation itself is just a mere symbol of malice, so why does it have to take the appearance of a Dragon? Why not the form of a more stylish Eldritch abomination like all the others in the same book? Why?

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

you need to explore tamni more. There is an ss where touma accidentally met a magician that is connected to alien on mars. And the time traveler is from the psp game.

You should also know that Touma also accidentally met Birdway when he is taking detours in the ally.

Touma's adventure in the ally is pretty colorful life.

If we take into account that the dragon strike was already shown in the psp game.

typemoon fans would weep with how tamni plays with their 5 true magic. I'm one of them but I don't weep, I find it funny

I've read the LN from vol.14, read a few of the SS (Since I didn't know where they fit chronologically I didn't read most of them) and saw both seasons of the anime plus both Railgun seasons, I read the Railgun manga also. I haven't started the Acceleraror manga yet because it doesn't really have my attention. I haven't played any of the games because where I live rhey don't release them, I don't like ordering things online and if I did I don't know japanese, so I don't know if game content is canon or not.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

I've read the LN from vol.14, read a few of the SS (Since I didn't know where they fit chronologically I didn't read most of them) and saw both seasons of the anime plus both Railgun seasons, I read the Railgun manga also. I haven't started the Acceleraror manga yet because it doesn't really have my attention. I haven't played any of the games because where I live rhey don't release them, I don't like ordering things online and if I did I don't know japanese, so I don't know if game content is canon or not.

The game content is canon. In fact, summaries of the entire plot for the games is on one of the threads in the non-manga readers index sub-forum. They're interesting.

Though to be fair, I always considered the time traveler as just something for the game, I didn't actually count that to be real... though I guess it might be... after considering things carefully...

@Tsunade

I understand why you might be disappointed, but it also means that perhaps there is some huge secret about dragons in this series that would be just as ridiculous as everything else we've seen.

There's no reason to believe that dragons in this series are like dragons in other series. They're probably much more ridiculous. After all, we've seen two REAL things that look/are called dragon, and they have kicked major ass.

So it might not be disappointing even if it is just a TO ARU dragon.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

I've read the LN from vol.14, read a few of the SS

read some of the SS more. Some of them gave more foreshadowing than the actual main series. Though it looks like you started where the second season ended. If you have time. Try reading them too. Specially vol 4 because some parts of it are cute but those aren't important. The important is the battle and exposition about angels. Also vol 6 is important with the foreshadowing of the artificial heaven.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

People tends to forget what the strongest Dragons in fiction can do. I'm disappoint.

Originally Posted by tsunade666

dragon was always depicted as the ultimate fantasy, a form of power

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Holy crap, so this is what you guys are complaining about?
I'll return the question right back at you : the Dragon in the Book Of revelation itself is just a mere symbol of malice, so why does it have to take the appearance of a Dragon? Why not the form of a more stylish Eldritch abomination like all the others in the same book? Why?

I don't mean eldritch abomination because Aiwass was certain not isn't he?

I'm complaining of why took the image of an eastern dragon (its a chinese dragon right? because it has long narrow body)

The dragon in the book of revelation was lucifer right? and it was struck down by Micheal. I don't think that is a good comparison because "IT" is higher than a complete holy right. Plus isn't dragon a symbol of evil from what Index describe them? fallen angels? doesn't that go against the whole "kamijou" thing though I have nothing against DRAGON but I'm a bit disappointed that it turn into actual form of a typical dragon.

Isn't it already been debated before before the whole dragon thing appear in railgun manga?

there where lot of theories but I actually like what dniv theory was.

There was also a theory of maat. the one takes after horus.

there are lots of possible theories that explain the dragon but those being are all symbolism and they usually take human form or form that can make mortal understand them.

I can get behind the idea that it takes the form of a dragon because its easily understand by others but it still disappointing that it turn into a dragon. of all things possible a form of dragon.... >_>

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

I don't mean eldritch abomination because Aiwass was certain not isn't he?

He probably is though. Heck he probably can be anything, even an actual Dragon, since he can transform. We just didn't get any depiction of his actual transformed appearance, and I wonder why ... but I suspect it's because it spoils a big chunk of the hidden plot.
Just for fun, look at that title again and tell me what you find weird :

Originally Posted by Vol 19 chapter 4's title

Two Monsters Inviting You to Hell. Dragon(≠Angel).

Spoiler for long post:

Originally Posted by tsunade666

I'm complaining of why took the image of an eastern dragon (its a chinese dragon right? because it has long narrow body)

yeah, no. We just saw its head and neck, it might even be a Wyvern or practically any species with a Dragon's head. You're just assuming things.
And yes, dragons have long necks.

Originally Posted by tsunade666

The dragon in the book of revelation was lucifer right? and it was struck down by Micheal. I don't think that is a good comparison because "IT" is higher than a complete holy right. Plus isn't dragon a symbol of evil from what Index? fallen angels? doesn't that go against the whole "kamijou" thing though I have nothing against DRAGON but I'm a bit disappointed that it turn into actual form of a typical dragon.

From what Index describes them.

Index? By Index do you mean the whole series? How can you even say that after comparing it to a Chinese Dragon? Just no, no and no.
That's what I find weird with you guys sometimes. You're all "Aeon here, Aeon that, Aleister is superior because he's not limiting himself to the Aeon of OSIRIS, etc". But when the real deal happens you are actually the ones who are limiting yourself to Christianity vision. Which is ironic, because not even my local priests think "Dragon" is essentially a Symbol Of Evil.
When we're still at that subject I'll answer my own question for you. It took the form of a Dragon because a Dragon is actually looks menacing and powerful in the writer's mind. It's a symbol of strength before everything else = using a powerful enemy is the best to symbolise a powerful evil. It's as simple as that.
It's the same with St.George's legend. The Dragon wasn't necessary evil, it was just powerful and the Knight was respected for beating such a powerful creature.

But why the form of a Dragon?

Because it looks menacing, dammit. A formless jelly doesn't.

Originally Posted by tsunade666

there are lots of possible theories that explain the dragon but those being are all symbolism and they usually take human form or form that can make mortal understand them.
I can get behind the idea that it takes the form of a dragon because its easily understand by others but it still disappointing that it turn into a dragon. of all things possible a form of dragon.... >_>

You're not making any sense. You're saying there's some logic behind it yet you don't like it because it's not what you wanted it to be.
Are you telling me it would have been better if it took the form of a cute little girl with blonde twintails and a frilly dress? Because I'm personally disappointed and massively buttockshurt that it didn't take that form. But that would beat the purpose because :

but those beings are all symbolism

Stop using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. Symbolism means there's an hidden idea or form behind the already apparent one.

Let's say you are right and Aiwass' name is a symbol. 'kay, I have no objective evidence to refute that.

Let's say you're right and that this Dragon is supposed to be just a symbol. So you're complaining it took the form of a Dragon instead of something else? Just think about it for a second : unlike Aiwass who goes by the name "DRAGON", that thing is only called a dragon because of its appearance. If it would take another appearance then no one would call it a Dragon anymore and it would stop symbolizing what a Dragon symbolises + people would stop linking it to Aiwass.
By that logic, kamachi shouldn't have called Aiwass DRAGON in the first place, but "Fallen Angel" or whatever that name is supposed to represent.

[LevelSeven]

people, the dragon is to 100% shenglong from DBZ....

after the destruction of the old earth in DBGT , he seeked a new host, first a temple than a sword than a shield and now toumas body XD

so dont be disappointed, if you rub toumas body until his right hand/arm is severed, shenglong will show up and grant you three wishes.....

this is the real reason why aleisters plan involves touma

[OH&S]

Why? WHY? Why are people still annoyed by this. We've haven't learnt ANY new information. We just got reminded of what happened in Volume 2. We already knew it was a dragon since Volume 22. But we don't what that dragon represents in the world of Index. Until it does, then nothing anyone says about the dragon is valid.

[demino_hellsin]

I just don't see the need to bother pointing out that we have absolutely nothing to go on except a picture without anyone having read the chapter yet. Unless one has read the chapter, you may as well be speculating about speculations rather than the subject of interest itself.

[desrtsku]

^ We all already have, I think.
It's still a pretty pointless discussion nonetheless, considering we're arguing over our expectations versus what we think the author is planning (without actually being what the author is really planning).

[BossKagaxx]

It was somewhat shown during his battle with Fiamma. After his arm was severed, IT took form then GP just swallowed it, all the while IB was still with Fiamma.

So, Touma have 3 different powers? IT, GP and IB?

[Birdway]

You're right. This was addressed on the old thread for the novels in general.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

He probably is though. Heck he probably can be anything, even an actual Dragon, since he can transform. We just didn't get any depiction of his actual transformed appearance, and I wonder why ... but I suspect it's because it spoils a big chunk of the hidden plot.
Just for fun, look at that title again and tell me what you find weird :

I agree on the bolded part. Since Aiwass can probably transform into free forming form and he can probably take the form of the dragon but I like the form he take when he appears. It doesn't show that he is imposing or dangerous but the aura or present itself will probably tell you. Appearance can be deceiving.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Index? By Index do you mean the whole series? How can you even say that after comparing it to a Chinese Dragon? Just no, no and no.
That's what I find weird with you guys sometimes. You're all "Aeon here, Aeon that, Aleister is superior because he's not limiting himself to the Aeon of OSIRIS, etc". But when the real deal happens you are actually the ones who are limiting yourself to Christianity vision. Which is ironic, because not even my local priests think "Dragon" is essentially a Symbol Of Evil.
When we're still at that subject I'll answer my own question for you. It took the form of a Dragon because a Dragon is actually looks menacing and powerful in the writer's mind. It's a symbol of strength before everything else = using a powerful enemy is the best to symbolise a powerful evil. It's as simple as that.
It's the same with St.George's legend. The Dragon wasn't necessary evil, it was just powerful and the Knight was respected for beating such a powerful creature.

In the Aeon of Osiris and Isis. Dragon can be depicted as evil and didn't I say that its a symbol of power already? -_- ultimate form of fantasy. I won't argue about that the form dragon takes/symbol of POWER. I already said that. But its already been depicted as also as evil. I can't remember a legend where a dragon was depicted as good. Even in index and I mean the series.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Because it looks menacing, dammit. A formless jelly doesn't.

I think its much more scary if you don't know what's hunting you. Like a hazy mist or invincible thing. but its just me.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

You're not making any sense. You're saying there's some logic behind it yet you don't like it because it's not what you wanted it to be.
Are you telling me it would have been better if it took the form of a cute little girl with blonde twintails and a frilly dress? Because I'm personally disappointed and massively buttockshurt that it didn't take that form. But that would beat the purpose because :

I prefer the form that is invisible or can't be understand or distinguished. It adds more mystery to it even if its not as imposing as a big dragon -_-

the mystery and unknown is much more scary than the thing one understands.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Stop using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means. Symbolism means there's an hidden idea or form behind the already apparent one.

I call the dragon that appear in railgun manga a symbol because I don't think that, that's all there is too it. There should be more to it than an actual dragon because if not. I will be more disappointed.

I will say again. Dragon is a symbol of power and ultimate form of fantasy.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

By that logic, kamachi shouldn't have called Aiwass DRAGON in the first place, but "Fallen Angel" or whatever that name is supposed to represent.

this is taken from vol 18

In the values of the Christian Church, the dragon was the symbol of more than one thing.

For example, it represented pagans and foreign invading forces.

It also represented a fallen angel stained with evil.

This is clearly a view from Osiris because it uses the format of Christian so there is probably more to it when one enters the aeon of horus. BUT even in modern time. I can't remember dragon depicted as good.

because just like what allfiction said. for a being the cleanse evils and purifies gods. Being a symbol of evil seems contradict it.

Well that is for me.

[BossKagaxx]

A dragon huh...hmmm, let's see:

In Chinese/Japanese mythology, it is a symbol of power, strength and good luck (ironic, given it's Touma xD). It is also said that it is the yang.

Western versions often depicted dragons as monsters guarding something, like precious artifacts, gates, princesses, etc. And usually, a hero needs to slay them in order to move on to their quests.

Dragons often take the role of a chaos monster which the hero must defeat/overcome.

Now, look at its parallel in a certain concept in Thelema...

And if we follow the italized statement and down, this might make sense:

Spoiler for NT8:

“Ugh, just look at me. I let my guard down. I wonder if the day is coming when I will be forced into a serious fistfight with 120% beast mode Index or enter a drawn-out battle to the death with a dark shadowy gathering of misfortune given physical form…”

And this:

Spoiler for foreshadowing:

...that which writhes at a point in the Sahara

Just an observation, not necessarily right.

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by BossKagaxx

A dragon huh...hmmm, let's see:

In Chinese/Japanese mythology, it is a symbol of power, strength and good luck (ironic, given it's Touma xD). It is also said that it is the yang.

Western versions often depicted dragons as monsters guarding something, like precious artifacts, gates, princesses, etc. And usually, a hero needs to slay them in order to move on to their quests.

Dragons often take the role of a chaos monster which the hero must defeat/overcome.

Now, look at its parallel in a certain concept in Thelema...

So far, I'm behind Boss. Interesting parallels can be made between Chaoskampf and fight Choronzon to cross the Abyss.

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

In the Aeon of Osiris and Isis. Dragon can be depicted as evil and didn't I say that its a symbol of power already? -_- ultimate form of fantasy. I won't argue about that the form dragon takes/symbol of POWER. I already said that. But its already been depicted as also as evil. I can't remember a legend where a dragon was depicted as good. Even in index and I mean the series.

For the most part, I'm going to leave this discussion about symbolism alone. I do not believe we'll reach any valuable conclusions by examining Dragon mythology. There is simply so much information on the subject that anything actually useful will be drowned out by an endless supply of red herrings. Speculation based on what we have seen the Dragon actually do in TAMNI seems like a more fruitful line of inquiry.

However I'm going to point out that as far as I know, Dragons being evil is a purely Osiris phenomenon. It has nothing to do with Isis. The Aeon of Isis refers to an age that started near the dawn of mankind. At that time when religion was just starting to be a thing, man chose to worship the symbol of power that was closest at hand, the land itself. Mother Earth, who both nurtures and ends life, was the first god ever. There is significant archaeological evidence that proves this.

The mythology that later gave rise to what we know as Dragons developed during this era. Dragons have their origins in snakes. Snakes were regarded as symbols of immortality and renewal because to early man, the shedding of their old skin to reveal a glossy layer beneath appeared to be a form of rejuvenation, allowing them to cast off old age for youth. Dragons inherited those traits. At some point in time, some of the Mother Earth deities acquired Dragon-like qualities.

Then Osiris came along. More warlike tribes rejected the Mother Earth goddesses, preferring to worship so called "Skyfather" deities, male gods who reside in the heavens above rather than in the earth below. These tribes subjugated the more peaceful tribes who still worshiped their goddesses. In the process, the goddesses were either demoted to becoming the wives of the male gods, or reinterpreted into monsters that their gods had defeated.

It was at this time that Dragons first became a symbol of evil. Being associated with the old religions, they became targets for the new religions to vilify. At least, this is how I understand things. I am not an expert. Someone else might have a better picture of things than me.

In any case, based on by understanding, we have not seen a single Isis Aeon religion in TAMNI yet. The Aztecs come close, but they are still Osiris.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

For the most part, I'm going to leave this discussion about symbolism alone. I do not believe we'll reach any valuable conclusions by examining Dragon mythology. There is simply so much information on the subject that anything actually useful will be drowned out by an endless supply of red herrings.

You just summed up half of the rumour theory from NT.

[BossKagaxx]

Originally Posted by allfictions

So far, I'm behind Boss. Interesting parallels can be made between Chaoskampf and fight Choronzon to cross the Abyss.

Thanks. Yeah, that's the simple theory I came up. Simple, but it kinda makes sense right?

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

For the most part, I'm going to leave this discussion about symbolism alone. I do not believe we'll reach any valuable conclusions by examining Dragon mythology. There is simply so much information on the subject that anything actually useful will be drowned out by an endless supply of red herrings. Speculation based on what we have seen the Dragon actually do in TAMNI seems like a more fruitful line of inquiry.

You do not need to thoroughly examine Dragon mythology. Speculations about that dragon can be simply narrowed down to its symbolism in Thelema, since Aleister's goals revolve around it.

Oh, and one more thing (a trivia maybe? for clarity.): Dragon is the general symbolism/representation of the EGO.

To even speak of the Dragon using words chosen by the conscious mind immediately contradicts his true nature, whose ultimate meaning is Unity. To use words to describe him is to make judgments about that which is beyond judgement and words: blissful union of the Masculine and Feminine.

The true identity of the Western Dragon is the Ego, that part of our consciousness which chains apart our inner Masculine and Feminine, preventing us from integrating our own male and female sides and knowing Oneness within ourselves. The Ego needs to makes sense of its world by judging/labeling everything. The Ego judges, "This is good, that is bad," thus dividing reality constantly and creating chaos within himself rather than seeing All as One.

Now, remember Touma's actions so far since the beginning of the series, as well as his view on things. And look at Thelema again especially the ritual involving Choronzon.

Choronzon represents the EGO.
Dragon symbolizes the EGO.

If we follow this line of thought, then maybe, we are close to answering "Why dragon? Why such a lame(?) thing Kamachi?!" and the nature of Touma's powers.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

You just summed up half of the rumour theory from NT.

Lol

[dniv]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

You just summed up half of the rumour theory from NT.

Lol.

Originally Posted by BossKagaxx

Thanks. Yeah, that's the simple theory I came up. Simple, but it kinda makes sense right?


You do not need to thoroughly examine Dragon mythology. Speculations about that dragon can be simply narrowed down to its symbolism in Thelema, since Aleister's goals revolve around it.

Oh, and one more thing (a trivia maybe? for clarity.): Dragon is the general symbolism/representation of the EGO.



Now, remember Touma's actions so far since the beginning of the series, as well as his view on things. And look at Thelema again especially the ritual involving Choronzon.

Choronzon represents the EGO.
Dragon symbolizes the EGO.

If we follow this line of thought, then maybe, we are close to answering "Why dragon? Why such a lame(?) thing Kamachi?!" and the nature of Touma's powers.



Lol

That's really interesting. It would be interesting if that represented how Touma felt subconsciously...

Going by that logic, if Touma masters his ego completely(?), he'll be able to channel the power of Choronzon because he'll have awakened completely in the religion of Thelema?

[BossKagaxx]

Originally Posted by dniv

Lol.



That's really interesting. It would be interesting if that represented how Touma felt subconsciously...

Going by that logic, if Touma masters his ego completely(?), he'll be able to channel the power of Choronzon because he'll have awakened completely in the religion of Thelema?

What drives/controls the EGO by default is the moral standards of the society- what is "right" and "wrong" in the eyes of the world.

The goal of Thelema is to make the person himself drive/control his own EGO rather than letting the moral standards of the society drive/control it. If the person is able to control it, then that person will "ascend".

Touma's actions/battles reflect his struggle against his own ego. The biggest one so far was shown in NT9, wherein he had struggled choosing between his OWN happiness or the hapiness of OTHERS.

[dniv]

Originally Posted by BossKagaxx

What drives/controls the EGO by default is the moral standards of the society- what is "right" and "wrong" in the eyes of the world.

The goal of Thelema is to make the person himself drive/control his own EGO rather than letting the moral standards of the society drive/control it. If the person is able to control it, then that person will "ascend".

Touma's actions/battles reflect his struggle against his own ego. The biggest one so far was shown in NT9, wherein he had struggled choosing between his OWN happiness or the hapiness of OTHERS.

So like I said does this imply that soon Touma will ascend?