Psycho-Pass 2 - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[karice67]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I agree with you there. It is really strange, and they really didn't explain that. The only thing I can think of is that the old man had a weapon, and he was determined to use and fight with it; hence, he had an advantage. The other guy was definitely not used to fighting, and he was running on instinct of fear. I guess the old man was stronger and more determined than we know.

Personally, I think the answer to this lies in answering the question of why everyone is so afraid to think and act for themselves. Not just the victims in this episode, but even the Inspectors. Mika is pretty extreme, but Aoyanagi and Shisui are also implied to (have been) living with these fears. Why is everyone is so afraid to do things of their own will? Why is their society like this?

Well, it's the logical consequence the Japan in Psycho-Pass. If an individual's place in society is dependent on their hue remaining clear, then they're going to want to avoid doing anything that will raise that hue. So they avoid taking responsibility for anything, and just live according to what they're told to do. They’re also going to avoid committing violence themselves as much as possible, because they know that that will raise their hue - and this avoidance is only exacerbated by the fact that all of these hostages are already concerned about keeping their crime coefficients down. To me, this all helps explain their reluctance to act to try to free themselves from this situation: if they don’t take any action that actually raises their hue, then it’s not their fault etc etc.

This is a really different frame of mind to what many of us have in our own societies, but these tendencies do exist. Especially in Japan (and yes, I'm talking about modern Japan)! Psycho-Pass has taken this issue to the extreme, but I can really see a huge critique of the Japanese people today in it.

[thundrakkon]

@karice67

I do agree with everything you've said. People are concerned about their hue changing for the worst. atua's point was concerning how a seemingly weak older man was able to overcome a younger man. Golos brought up the idea that the oxygen mask the old man was breathing might contain some sort of drug (maybe a PCP derivative) that enhanced his strength. That does seem like a plausible point. However, it was so subtle that most people might not even thought of it.

I think the most important point you made is that the mindset of people is different in Psycho Pass than what we have, and people need to view it through that perspective to understand the series better.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What's silly about it? One lone tragedy isn't necessarily good reason for throwing out what's been working pretty well for you all along.

It's not a lone tragedy. We've seen in the very first episode of the first season that Sibyl doesn't differentiate between aggressors and victims, or rather, treats victims as criminals. This episode simply took what we've already seen to an absurd extreme. Saying that there are cases where CC would help sort difficult situations out and avoid mistaking victims for culprits doesn't strike me as a solid argument in light of everything we've seen in this series. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression Sibyl's solution to conflict is to treat all of the parties involved as guilty. If we take your example of a bar fight, the most probable outcome under Sibyl is that all of the people engaged in the fight would be taken down with paralyzer. Is that really any better or worse than to let a good old cop make the call?

I'd love to get more stats on Sibyl. We know crime went down, but at what cost? How many people were executed since Sibyl went online? How much did the number of prisoners go up? How much did the number of patients in "rehabilitation facility" go up? It's easy to bring crime down if you lock up or kill everybody and let the rest of the population live in fear they'll be next.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Also, I know that others have brought this up already, but don't the old Dominators tell anyone using them that the person their pointing it at is a Enforcer and/or Inspector? And if an Enforcer is pointing it at an Inspector, the gun locks on them? So, if I was looking at this guy's clothing who fired the Asaullt Dominator, he's not wearing the Inspector jacket, so I'm guessing he was an Enforcer. Aoyanagi was still recognized by Sybil as an Inspector despite her large CC. That was why her Dominator still registered to her and she could still use it. So, why didn't the new Dominator lock on the Enforcer since he was still pointing at a registered and Sybil-recognized Inspector? Because if the Assault Dominator can't even do what a regular old Dominator can do, what use is it?

The new dominator is able to read CC and fire through walls. Inspectors aren't supposed to have a high CC so they probably never thought it'd cause problems. I don't get why Kamui's experiment was a success since Aoyanagi wasn't judged as an inspector but as a random number. We still have no idea whether dominators stay locked if an identified inspector get a high CC.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kanon

It's not a lone tragedy.

What's the other tragedy? You raised Season 1, Episode 1, but Akane prevented that from becoming a tragedy.

The helmet riots of Season 1 was caused by Makishima and the Korean hacker, IIRC. Sibyl's response to that could have been better, but I honestly don't recall them killing innocent civilians in the process of trying to get Makishima.

I think that Sibyl is bad, but I don't find them downright unbelievable. Arrogance and extremist ideology is a dangerous mix, and Sybil has that, in my view. People like this aren't likely to change unless given very ample reason to do so. I can see Sibyl sticking to their guns (pun intended ) unless more and/or greater systematic failures/collapses start coming their way. Perhaps that'll happen this season, we'll see.

I'd love to get more stats on Sibyl. We know crime went down, but at what cost? How many people were executed since Sibyl went online? How much did the number of prisoners go up? How much did the number of patients in "rehabilitation facility" go up? It's easy to bring crime down if you lock up or kill everybody and let the rest of the population live in fear they'll be next.

I completely agree with the spirit behind these questions. Again, Sibyl is bad. The costs they bring to society almost certainly outweigh the benefits, in my view.

But bad governments can find ways to stay in power for a long, long time. I mean, there's plenty of examples of this all around the real world.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

@karice67

I do agree with everything you've said. People are concerned about their hue changing for the worst. atua's point was concerning how a seemingly weak older man was able to overcome a younger man. Golos brought up the idea that the oxygen mask the old man was breathing might contain some sort of drug (maybe a PCP derivative) that enhanced his strength. That does seem like a plausible point. However, it was so subtle that most people might not even thought of it.

Sorry, I didn't really link the point I wanted to make that well to the issue the two of you were discussing. Besides fear etc, I think that the younger man probably didn't really want to do anything that would raise his crime coefficient, e.g. by actually socking the older man. That should have been his first attack. Instead, he tried to grapple him or something? That's just weird, but I think that the fears about the colour of their hues play a significant part in it.

[EroKing]

Just a noob wrestling fan who thought he could've tried something cool, the old man no sell

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What's the other tragedy? You raised Season 1, Episode 1, but Akane prevented that from becoming a tragedy.

The helmet riots of Season 1 was caused by Makishima and the Korean hacker, IIRC. Sibyl's response to that could have been better, but I honestly don't recall them killing innocent civilians in the process of trying to get Makishima.

I think that Sibyl is bad, but I don't find them downright unbelievable. Arrogance and extremist ideology is a dangerous mix, and Sybil has that, in my view. People like this aren't likely to change unless given very ample reason to do so. I can see Sibyl sticking to their guns (pun intended ) unless more and/or greater systematic failures/collapses start coming their way. Perhaps that'll happen this season, we'll see.

I can't think of another concrete example at the moment, but the first episode made it clear IMO that it was commonplace for victims to be treated as latent criminal. If not for Akane, Kogami wouldn't have thought twice about shooting that poor girl. All that matters to Sibyl is the CC, and we've seen several times CC can go up even if you do absolutely nothing wrong. The line between victims and aggressors is very much blurred. Personally, I'd never ever trust Sibyl's judgment over that of a smart human being like Akane. There are too many of factors Sibyl doesn't take into account when judging people, starting with circumstances.

I completely agree with the spirit behind these questions. Again, Sibyl is bad. The costs they bring to society almost certainly outweigh the benefits, in my view.

But bad governments can find ways to stay in power for a long, long time. I mean, there's plenty of examples of this all around the real world.

That's definitely true. I'm not saying it's unrealistic Sibyl is still in power, but I'm finding it increasingly harder to believe it with their recent screw-ups. I'd like a bit more nuance in the portrayal of Sibyl. Show us why people still trust it despite the events of season 1. We can try to imagine it, but it's not enough for me. They don't even have to tell us about its good points, they could instead show us how they control and censor information (I'm pretty sure they must fudge the stats I mentioned earlier), removed freedom of speech, have puppet charismatic political figures (like Big Brother), and whatnot.

[Sheba]

Jesus, it's like they learned NOTHING from Makishima's case and the cases of criminals like him before. To put it in real life terms, it's as if the safety protocols in workplaces have not changed since the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire or nothing in airport security changed since 9/11. Inspectors still relies on Sibyl making the call even in cases like this one. Nobody have ever though of drilling a hole and slip a tube camera when it's something that SWAT or counter-terrorist agencies does in places where they can't sneak a peek. No, just no. It's as if the drama in S2 need to happen because the law enforcement forces have NOT learned anything from the past and lack initiative.

[kitten320]

Originally Posted by karice67

But that's exactly what the creators are pointing out about the world of Psycho-Pass: it's full of people who lack common sense.

The problem is that most of the characters that lack sense this season, did have it in previous season. Instead of progressing, characters de gradated this season.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by kitten320

The problem is that most of the characters that lack sense this season, did have it in previous season. Instead of progressing, characters de gradated this season.

...and who are we talking about, exactly?

[kitten320]

Pretty much everyone since they are denying existence of a person who can avoid scanners when they already had 100s of cases like that in season 1.

It is one thing for other divisions to be in denial but for main cast who met Makishima that is just dumb especially by implying that Akane is crazy and her actually doubting her own mentality.

"No, there is no way someone could get into your room past scanners even though Makishima and bunch of other creeps did it many times not so long ago. Nope, totally impossible to get pass scanners."

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by kitten320

Pretty much everyone since they are denying existence of a person who can avoid scanners when they already had 100s of cases like that in season 1.

It is one thing for other divisions to be in denial but for main cast who met Makishima that is just dumb especially by implying that Akane is crazy and her actually doubting her own mentality.

"No, there is no way someone could get into your room past scanners even though Makishima and bunch of other creeps did it many times not so long ago. Nope, totally impossible to get pass scanners."

Makishima could still be scanned, his number was just very low, but he still registered on the machine as did those guys with helmets since the helmets worked by imitating someone elses scan reading.

What's happening now is not the same. Kamui is not registering at all, and that's technically something that's suppose to be impossible.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

Makishima could still be scanned, his number was just very low, but he still registered on the machine as did those guys with helmets since the helmets worked by imitating someone elses scan reading.

What's happening now is not the same. Kamui is not registering at all, and that's technically something that's suppose to be impossible.

Precisely. I'm surprised that you keep missing this point, kitten320.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I can't think of another concrete example at the moment, but the first episode made it clear IMO that it was commonplace for victims to be treated as latent criminal. If not for Akane, Kogami wouldn't have thought twice about shooting that poor girl. All that matters to Sibyl is the CC, and we've seen several times CC can go up even if you do absolutely nothing wrong. The line between victims and aggressors is very much blurred. Personally, I'd never ever trust Sibyl's judgment over that of a smart human being like Akane. There are too many of factors Sibyl doesn't take into account when judging people, starting with circumstances.

As a practical matter, I think that CC is intended to measure brainwaves to determine how likely a person is to commit a criminal act. Now, an average person going through a panic attack is at that very moment probably much more likely to commit a criminal act than an average person not suffering a panic attack. That likely changes once the panic attack ends, but CC readings are a snapshot in time, as Akane has repeatedly shown.

So CC readings aren't just designed to help apprehend/eliminate existing criminals, but also to prevent people from becoming criminals. However, this raises an ethical dilemma similar to the one raised in the movie Minority Report. Is it fair to punish people for crimes they haven't committed yet (and, in Psycho-Pass' case, crimes they may never commit even if left alone)?

Sybil Japan is a case of taking collectivism to the extreme - It's basic stance is that brutally killing some potential/actual criminals, and incarcerating some (lesser) potential/actual criminals, is worth it in order to ensure as peaceful and crime-free and mentally stable a society as possible, for everybody else. It targeting potential criminals, and not just actual criminals, is a feature, not a bug. The system is intended to work that way, I think.

Basically, Sibyl is the total antithesis to the famous Benjamin Franklin quote - "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

In that one line, you have the complete condemnation of Sibyl. Because Sibyl is all about making whatever sacrifices of liberty are necessary in order to gain even just temporary safety (such as safety from a person suffering a panic attack). Sibyl and Franklin are in perfect disagreement.

kacrice67 raises some good points about how this show is likely a critique of modern real world Japan. Because modern real world Japan does lean pretty heavily in a collectivist direction (at least based on everything I've read and heard on the matter). "The nail that sticks out will get hammered down." is a famous Japanese saying, IIRC. It says a lot about the cultural mentality in Japan compared to the more "freedom of expression!" cultural mentality of America (and Canada/Europe to somewhat lesser degrees).

I suspect that Psycho-Pass is a lot easier to "get" if you're living in Japan, or a similarly collectivist society. For us in the west, it's not as easily intuitive, because our own cultures are quite different (if anything, we might lean a bit too much the other way).

That's definitely true. I'm not saying it's unrealistic Sibyl is still in power, but I'm finding it increasingly harder to believe it with their recent screw-ups. I'd like a bit more nuance in the portrayal of Sibyl. Show us why people still trust it despite the events of season 1. We can try to imagine it, but it's not enough for me. They don't even have to tell us about its good points, they could instead show us how they control and censor information (I'm pretty sure they must fudge the stats I mentioned earlier), removed freedom of speech, have puppet charismatic political figures (like Big Brother), and whatnot.

Those are fair criticisms. Psycho-Pass Season 2 could be better-written, I agree with that. Right now, I consider it slightly worst than Season 1, and I hope it can become a bit tighter in its plotting and writing soon.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Kanon

That's definitely true. I'm not saying it's unrealistic Sibyl is still in power, but I'm finding it increasingly harder to believe it with their recent screw-ups. I'd like a bit more nuance in the portrayal of Sibyl. Show us why people still trust it despite the events of season 1. We can try to imagine it, but it's not enough for me. They don't even have to tell us about its good points, they could instead show us how they control and censor information (I'm pretty sure they must fudge the stats I mentioned earlier), removed freedom of speech, have puppet charismatic political figures (like Big Brother), and whatnot.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Those are fair criticisms. Psycho-Pass Season 2 could be better-written, I agree with that. Right now, I consider it slightly worst than Season 1, and I hope it can become a bit tighter in its plotting and writing soon.

I'll be frank: the thing is, what Kanon is saying is unbelievable...is arguably what is happening in Japan today, perhaps just taken just slightly further. There aren't many charismatic political figures; freedom of speech (and freedom of the press) is ostensibly existent; information is ostensibly available if you look for it.

But that's just on the surface. It's happened throughout the last 70 years too (post WW2 Japan), but despite appearances, there are lots of things that give me the same uneasy feeling that Psycho-Pass's Japan does -- if only to a slightly lesser extent. When I chat with friends about e.g. what's going on with all the political scandals in Japan, I always come away wondering how in the world people allow this in a democratic society. But is Japan truly democratic? And do Japanese people really care? And the answer that my friends and I always arrive at to both of these is "no." Unless it directly affects them, or unless the news in question is thrust in their faces by the media (which is arguably heavily controlled by certain interests), Japanese people pay almost no attention to politics. The impression I get here is that most people - that is, anyone not studying politics at university or working in the field - really don't care.

And that's arguably one of the issues that prevents any kind of reform. The current PM Abe Shinzo is ostensibly trying to reform the economy, which requires a lot of structural changes (changes in policies and practices). But there seems to be increasing doubt amongst observers that the will be able to do it, because there are too many people invested in the system as it is, too many people who think that the system works, and thus that it needs no change. Does any of this sound familiar?

[Triple_R]

I think I see what you're saying, karice67.

With that in mind, let me play devil's advocate for Sybil for a bit.

It's fairly easy for me to imagine that for most people in Sybil Japan, the clear impact that Sybil has on their daily lives is fairly negligible. Sybil is ubiquitous, but it's actually for that very reason that it's easy to ignore. It just folds in seamlessly to your daily living, like the sky being blue.

People in Sybil Japan focus a lot on maintaining mental health, but for them, it's probably like students trying to do well at school. It's just another lifestyle/performance metric, every society has them.

Look at Akane's friends from Season 1. They seemed like pretty normal, well-adjusted people. Not exceptionally happy, but generally content. Life is mostly pleasant for them, just with a few of the sorts of inequalities and worries that every society has (i.e. "I wish I was as lucky as you, Akane!"). Akane's friends are probably fairly typical for your average, every Sibyl Japan citizen.

One of Akane's friends ended up getting killed by Makishima, of course, but that's an exceptional circumstance. Most people like Akane's friend probably live largely content, comfortable lives.

So the majority of people in Sibyl Japan don't really see what's wrong because life is probably mostly good for them. It's not out-of-this-world great, but without any available point of comparison (due to Sibyl Japan being largely isolated from the rest of the world), people don't see much reason to question their society and how its ran.

It's easy for the people in Sibyl Japan to simply ignore those who get executed/incarcerated by the system, since those people are almost certainly a small minority. Unless one of those people is a father or a mother or a sister or a lover or a best friend, it's probably easy to not care.


And there is one bit of credit I will give Sybil.

This is a rather nice jail-cell.

That's rather humane imprisonment. It's bordering on house arrest levels of comfortable imprisonment. I'm pretty sure most jail-cells in America and Canada are nowhere near as comfortable/pleasant as that one appears to be.

Now maybe Sybil was extra-nice to Saiga because Akane likes him. But still, it could represent a step in the right direction if it becomes any sort of standard.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by karice67

Sorry, I didn't really link the point I wanted to make that well to the issue the two of you were discussing. Besides fear etc, I think that the younger man probably didn't really want to do anything that would raise his crime coefficient, e.g. by actually socking the older man. That should have been his first attack. Instead, he tried to grapple him or something? That's just weird, but I think that the fears about the colour of their hues play a significant part in it.

Ah, that makes great sense. It's true that punching someone might not be the first instinct of someone in that society. It's also true that people are not used to violence, so they don't know how to react apappropriately.

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Golos

Was it (just) oxygen? My impression was that he was using drugs that enabled him to overpower the others.

I think it really was just oxygen. We saw in season 1 how people just retardedly stood there while a woman got murdered in the streets. People are so pathetic they probably couldn't even fight a sick old man. The mechanical dog was the real threat.

[Boukenxha]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think I see what you're saying, karice67.

With that in mind, let me play devil's advocate for Sybil for a bit.

It's fairly easy for me to imagine that for most people in Sybil Japan, the clear impact that Sybil has on their daily lives is fairly negligible. Sybil is ubiquitous, but it's actually for that very reason that it's easy to ignore. It just folds in seamlessly to your daily living, like the sky being blue.

People in Sybil Japan focus a lot on maintaining mental health, but for them, it's probably like students trying to do well at school. It's just another lifestyle/performance metric, every society has them.

Look at Akane's friends from Season 1. They seemed like pretty normal, well-adjusted people. Not exceptionally happy, but generally content. Life is mostly pleasant for them, just with a few of the sorts of inequalities and worries that every society has (i.e. "I wish I was as lucky as you, Akane!"). Akane's friends are probably fairly typical for your average, every Sibyl Japan citizen.

One of Akane's friends ended up getting killed by Makishima, of course, but that's an exceptional circumstance. Most people like Akane's friend probably live largely content, comfortable lives.

So the majority of people in Sibyl Japan don't really see what's wrong because life is probably mostly good for them. It's not out-of-this-world great, but without any available point of comparison (due to Sibyl Japan being largely isolated from the rest of the world), people don't see much reason to question their society and how its ran.

It's easy for the people in Sibyl Japan to simply ignore those who get executed/incarcerated by the system, since those people are almost certainly a small minority. Unless one of those people is a father or a mother or a sister or a lover or a best friend, it's probably easy to not care.


And there is one bit of credit I will give Sybil.

This is a rather nice jail-cell.

That's rather humane imprisonment. It's bordering on house arrest levels of comfortable imprisonment. I'm pretty sure most jail-cells in America and Canada are nowhere near as comfortable/pleasant as that one appears to be.

Now maybe Sybil was extra-nice to Saiga because Akane likes him. But still, it could represent a step in the right direction if it becomes any sort of standard.

By the end of last season, I would consider Akane to be a fairly discerning critic and representative of Sibyl Japan's society at the center of the spectrum between idealist and realist. Through the series of events that led us to see her experiences and dialogues in life, the ugly side of things from her work in the police force and with the exclusiveness of the truth of the Sibyl system revealed only to her, she had decided that there is no return route in sight for this society except to trudge on with maintaining the status quo with the powers that be but doing what she can to compromise.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jagger

I think it really was just oxygen. We saw in season 1 how people just retardedly stood there while a woman got murdered in the streets. People are so pathetic they probably couldn't even fight a sick old man. The mechanical dog was the real threat.

But did you see how he threw Aoyanagi? Whatever was in the tank, he was bloody strong.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So the majority of people in Sibyl Japan don't really see what's wrong because life is probably mostly good for them. It's not out-of-this-world great, but without any available point of comparison (due to Sibyl Japan being largely isolated from the rest of the world), people don't see much reason to question their society and how its ran.

And even if they could compare, they might still chose Sibyl. (Well, maybe not if they knew how it rewards sociopathy...)

They may not be free to rebel, but they are free to walk around at night in poor quarters.