Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

On the topic of the Deus ex machina ending. Normally, I'd dislike this as well. But when wishes and time travel are established as core elements of your story (both being brought up frequently) I think that the writer effectively paves the way for them to believably/reasonably play a key role in resolving the conflict of the narrative.

I'm very, very glad that Madoka didn't contract and make a stupid and/or minimalist wish. Realistically, who would make such a wish if in her situation?

If a Deus ex machina ending logically flows from the story, and is foreshadowed beforehand, I have no problem with it. I much prefer it to having a character carry the idiot ball just to get a 'bad end', or avoid a Deus ex machina one.

My main problem with the Deus ex is that the themes we followed throughout the story were pretty much disregarded by Madoka contracting. Throughout the whole anime, we were constantly hammered that contracting wasn't good, because in the end things would come back to you. Mami showed the MS life was dangerous. Sayaka's downfall and death showed that the contract would only bring you despair, and Kyōko also told Madoka not to contract and her actions showed that trying to change how the MS system worked was futile. Moreover, the most important thing was Homura's effort at trying to save Madoka and try to prevent her from contracting, after Madoka herself asked her to.

However, after all of this, they solved much of the story by having Madoka "outsmart the devil," attain godlike powers and solve several things in a rather convenient fashion. So, what happened to the thematics? What happened to the lessons learned from the fallen MS? What happened to Homura's effort?

So, my point basically is that even if Madoka attaining godlike powers was foreshadowed, in my opinion it felt awfully disconnected to the story's thematic.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by prototype_sky

The lesson is don't give gifts and expect a favorable return and be careful what you wish for I guess.

It really does put a damper on the whole it is better to give than to receive.

Ironically if Kamijou stayed crippled most likely they would've ended up together
since the lost of his talent kept him off the radar of other girls and she had him all to herself.

Pretty sure she would. remember how the nurses said they were happy SHE was visiting all the time. She, not "all these girls" or "she and her friend". From the way the show put it, it seemed pretty clear Hitomi didn't give a rat's a** about the guy while he was crippled. Ouch.

Seriously. On any other mahou shoujo/ positive outcomes only show she would've gotten the guy for her selfless love and efforts :s It's a pretty bitter reality we're being shown here, maybe.
You can work your a** off for love, hey, you can even sacrifice your soul for the guy and his dreams, he's STILL going to prefer that backstabbing, insolent wench once he's up there. Poor Sayaka. She should go all Skip Beat on Kamijou <.<

But of course Sayaka is right, if music is his life, and she loves him, she couldn't keep music from him for her own gain.
It's just that Hitomi in contrast is such a worthless person who doesn't deserve what she's being handed... bleak, that part

[ninryu]

Spoiler for 11&12:

I don't know if I should cry my eyes out or be happy. Seriously. I can't believe Sayaka and Kyouko and Homura and Madoka couldn't be together in the end. (;_; ) Why?! WHY?!!

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Used Can

My main problem with the Deus ex is that the themes we followed throughout the story were pretty much disregarded by Madoka contracting. Throughout the whole anime, we were constantly hammered that contracting wasn't good, because in the end things would come back to you. Mami showed the MS life was dangerous. Sayaka's downfall and death showed that the contract would only bring you despair, and Kyōko also told Madoka not to contract. Moreover, the most important thing was Homura's effort at trying to save Madoka and try to preventing her from contracting, after Madoka herself asked her no to.

However, after all of this, they solved much of the story by having Madoka "outsmart the devil," attain godlike powers and solve several things in a rather convenient fashion. So, what happened to the thematics? What happened to the lessons learned from the fallen MS? What happened to Homura's effort?

So, my point basically is that even if Madoka attaining godlike powers was foreshadowed, in my opinion it felt awfully disconnected to the story's thematic.

Well, I would say that this was simply never the true theme of the story after all.

Perhaps we can say that instead of this "never contract with Kyubey" idea, the real idea being explored here is that you should not enter into a contractual agreement until you know precisely what it will entail for you, and for all parties to the contract. Kyouko, Mami, and Sayaka never knew that, whereas Madoka did, hence the different outcome for their respective wishes.

Homura took actions to ensure that Madoka could make a fully informed decision. Homura did protect Madoka, in a sense. She protected Madoka from being tricked. And it was through that protection that Madoka was able to make an informed decision, and perhaps even more importantly, she was able to make an informed wish.

So I don't see any thematic inconsistency here. The theme that some were perceiving here was simply not the theme after all. The actual theme was something slightly different (and probably of more practical worth, really).

[Anh_Minh]

Well, Homura was one badass magical girl. Too bad it wasn't enough.

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

My only complaint would be Sayaka. And hey, I didn't even care for her much, but was baffled at her fate :s
I mean, it's entirely possible due to her lack of personality or development that Hitomi is a nice person, but the show makes her look like a backstabbing b*tch of a so-called friend, and Kamijou, well, let's just not go there :s from what we know, she hasn't done squat for the guy so long as he was crippled, but hey, he got miraculously healed, so his value went through the roof again, so let's steal him from the girl who sacrificed her life for him (though she doesn't know that. But still. She's her friend)
What's the message in that? u.u I understand Sayaka being in love, and un-selfish, and sacrificing herself for her loved one and all that (as was just mentioned) but to backstabber Hitomi? Turn the other cheek?
I just didn't like that u.u

Maybe it happened differently in the final timeline:
- Sayaka wishes for her friend to be healed.
- Around the time he gets discharged, she dies heroically fighting some demon.
- Hitomi and Kamijou console each other. What were they gonna do? Sayaka was dead.

[Seiryuu]

I think this was far better than some give it credit for. I mean, it wasn't just foreshadowed that things would turn out this way, the story went out of its way to prove that no other outcome could turn out positive. The entire idea of the Puella Magi is that some things are greater than a person can do, or so great that the only way a person can achieve them is to sacrifice much more than it's worth. Thus impossible wishes distort and collapse into curses. In this world with a "devil" but no God, there's no way out. The only wish that would allow enough power to defeat a witch without eventually creating an even more powerful witch would be one that dealt with the very nature of the witches' births.

And that's what Walpurgisnacht is and why it's so hard to defeat. When a puella magi becomes a witch, her power increases greatly, so if a puella magi is powerful enough to defeat a witch, she's doomed to become a far more powerful witch herself. The ultimate result is a witch with such power and despair that no one can hope to face her, Walpurgisnacht.

Madoka's choice was the only way out, and the creators did well making sure that the world's very structure wouldn't allow hope. This wasn't a predictable or foreshadowed outcome, it was the only chance given from the start.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Perhaps we can say that instead of this "never contract with Kyubey" idea, the real idea being explored here is that you should not enter into a contractual agreement until you know precisely what it will entail for you, and for all parties to the contract. Kyouko, Mami, and Sayaka never knew that, whereas Madoka did, hence the different outcome for their respective wishes.

Hmm... I think it's really debatable, due to how the story played out. Up to ep10, everything pointed out that Madoka shouldn't contract, from Mami's death to Homura's apparently endless battle. However, in the end, we get that the only way out was Madoka making a contract.

Also, Homura's objective wasn't for Madoka to be fully informed before making a contract. Homura's purpose was for Madoka not to contract, after Madoka herself asked her to prevent her from contracting.

[Snork]

Maybe it happened differently in the final timeline:
- Sayaka wishes for her friend to be healed.
- Around the time he gets discharged, she dies heroically fighting some demon.
- Hitomi and Kamijou console each other. What were they gonna do? Sayaka was dead.

Possible. If Oriko turns out to be a sequel, I hope it will mention something about Sayaka.
It would really do her some justice. In the end, Kamijou's performance that Sayaka's soul in TL5 attends is probably the very light of hope her voice actress mentioned. And then, in the final timeline she gets his hand healed and dies in battle while protecting the world... fitting for a hero she wanted to be.
And who knows? We don't even know if Kamijou and Hitomi ended up being together first thing after his dischargement here. Might as well imagine he wasn't such an oblivious jerk this time, he and Sayaka got closer... in the end, her fate was inevitable, as it was the price she had to pay for her wish. The same price that, alas, Mami, Kyouko and Homura will pay someday, too. But even if there was a chance for her to enjoy happiness... it makes me more content with her fate. Thanks for this idea, Anh Minh.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Used Can

Hmm... I think it's really debatable, due to how the story played out. Up to ep10, everything pointed out that Madoka shouldn't contract, from Mami's death to Homura's apparently endless battle.

Not everything.

Kamijou really did have his hand healed, and after all is said and done, he's better for it, no question.

However, in the end, we get that the only way out was Madoka making a contract.

Also, Homura didn't want Madoka to be fully informed. Homura's purpose was for Madoka not to contract, after Madoka herself asked her to prevent her from contracting.

That's not entirely accurate.

In fairness to you, it's true that due to her love for Madoka, Homura wanted to spare her a Puella Magi fate.

However, Timeline 3 Madoka specifically asked Homura to not let Kyubey fool/trick her (going by the subs that I watched for Episode 10, at least). And that's exactly what Homura did. She didn't let Kyubey trick Madoka.


Honestly, I always found the idea of "no wish can possibly turn out good" a bit silly, which is why I debated against it at length on the Spoilers and Speculations thread well before these last two episodes aired.

The real problem was always the puella magi system, not the wish tied to it. Kamijou displayed that long before Madoka did.

[Faerie]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, Homura was one badass magical girl. Too bad it wasn't enough.


Maybe it happened differently in the final timeline:
- Sayaka wishes for her friend to be healed.
- Around the time he gets discharged, she dies heroically fighting some demon.
- Hitomi and Kamijou console each other. What were they gonna do? Sayaka was dead.

That would be great- but we don't know that, so that's only a faint hope It also means that Hitomi had to have become a very different person. You know... one that actually cares for Sayaka @__@
(and no, she didn't. She thought she did. It's a difference)
Of course that's possible, as we have seen how Madoka and Homura's personalities changed over the timelines.
Though seriously, it would be nice, if it had turned out like that.

It's interesting though, how her crappy fate made me care more for her over time she was my least favorite of the girls throughout most of the show

[Snork]

Tying in to Sayaka here, but going a bit further, this ending is also something of a shipper's nightmare.

It effectively cuts off any possibility of a conventional romantic relationship between Homura and Madoka, or Kyouko and Sayaka. The only romance it confirms is Kamijou and Hitomi, being one that is never really developed in the anime itself, and involves only secondary characters.

LOL, yes. Well, Homura at least is hinted to retain some kind of spiritual connection to Madoka (who, by the way, is not dead - she just can't manifest herself in the material world anymore, since her wish stretches her existence over the whole timeline). And Kyouko mentioned that she and Sayaka had finally become friends.
On the other hand, Madoka said that she can see all possible timelines now, the ones that were and the ones that "might to come". So these timelines continue to exist? This one, at least, goes on long enough to let Sayaka get some consolation. Logically, Madoka was meant to destroy this universe when she became a witch - but that didn't come true because she had no despair to feel (and, technically, because her own wish prevented that - the most she could do is disappear herself, but I guess a sentient constant can't self-terminate). Or maybe it did came true, but before transformation she already split into magical girl!Madoka collapsing under the weight of despair absorbed and "valkyrie"!Madoka born to harvest the souls of deceased Puellae Magi and carry out the very wish she made (sorry for random Norse mythology here, couldn't help it ). Her new world is but another timeline in this case, only heavily revamped one.
So if alternate timelines continue to exist (excluding those wiped out by Gretchen ), there might be (or "come to be" someday) timelines where not only Sayaka has better chances for survival, but also where she and Kyouko might get closer. Come on, losing hope is unfit for a shipper.

That would be great- but we don't know that, so that's only a faint hope It also means that Hitomi had to have become a very different person. You know... one that actually cares for Sayaka @__@
(and no, she didn't. She thought she did. It's a difference)

Actually, in TL5 there is STILL an option that Hitomi, regardless of her real feelings toward Kamijou, had meant to urge Sayaka to confess to him. And then she might have even described the whole picture to him, unbeknownst to poor Sayaka. It's very bitter to imagine such a scenario - Kamijou, learning about Sayaka's feelings and possibly feeling sorry for ignoring her all the recent days, comes to school... but Sayaka is missing. Oh, and the very next day she's found DEAD. Regardless of whether this is true or not, his expression when he attends Sayaka's funeral is the one thing possibly redeeming him in the eyes of the audience.
And Hitomi... she might have had feelings for him, or she might have developed them later when comforting him... anyway, she no longer had a friend to make way for.

[Taufiq91]

Alright, just finished episode 12.

And you know what?

For the first time ever, we have seen a "Gainax Ending" doesn't piss me off.

Basically let's take the reaction of audiences watching the last episode of Evangelion in 1996.

Now, let's reverse that into a satisfying ending for everyone to atleast bear with it positively.

And what you get in the end is this. A very psychological and kept true to its "no wish is ever good" theme, but still manages to be kind of a happy ending.

In the end,

Spoiler for Episode 12:

Witches gets replaced with demons and Homura is stuck being a mahou shoujo with Kyouko and Mami. But Madoka will always stay in Homura's heart and she will look up from the heavens,

And yet we get to see Homura gaining Accelerator's Angel wings with added vampire sparkles. And a beautiful poem to close it all off.

Curtains down.

It's one of the best interpretations of Faustian tragedy i've seen so far. It's wonderful, beautifully made and well directed.

I'd like to Thank Akiyuki Shinbo, SHAFT, Nitroplus and Gen Urobuchi for such an amazing 12 episode journey filled with hope & despair.

Oh, and don't forget: September 10 marks the 10th anniversary of Mahoromatic, the anime which made SHAFT a household name. Don't forget!

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Taufiq91

And what you get in the end is this. A very psychological and kept true to its "no wish is ever good" theme,

Um, no it didn't.

I have no problem with the rest of your post, but this part is simply not accurate.

Madoka's wish is clearly portrayed in a mostly positive light. It is clearly "good".


And that's perfectly fine, imo.

Originally Posted by Snork

Come on, losing hope is unfit for a shipper.

Oh, I have no doubt that fanfic writers will find creative ways around how this anime ends.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

That would be great- but we don't know that, so that's only a faint hope It also means that Hitomi had to have become a very different person. You know... one that actually cares for Sayaka @__@
(and no, she didn't. She thought she did. It's a difference)

Even in TL5, she gave Sayaka first shot.

It's interesting though, how her crappy fate made me care more for her over time she was my least favorite of the girls throughout most of the show

She was... satisfied. Yes, she gave her life. But her beloved could be happy thanks to that. Most lives are lost for a lot less.

[DJLowrider]

I guess I'm in a minority here. I not only love the ending, it made total sense to me. I mean...

Spoiler for What Madoka did and why:

...ultimately it boils down to the fact that Madoka decided if she really was as powerful as everyone theorized, then the only way to end the vicious cycle and all the despair and suffering caused by the system was to use that power to rewrite the rules. That QB had no choice but to fulfill such a massive wish was simply delicious to me. Instead of letting the system play her, she played the system. Karma really is a bitch, ain't it?

As for the aftermath, yes it was totally bittersweet with what became of her as a result, but I'm really okay with that. A "happily ever after" ending with no consequences wouldn't have sat right with me. There is still evil in the world, and still a need for mahou shoujo. Besides, anything is still possible. One should never say "never".

DO THE IMPOSSIBLE, SEE THE INVISIBLE. ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER!

Loved the ending, loved the series as a whole though I'm not sure I could bring myself to re-watch it any time soon. Except for the ending. I could watch that on loop right now and be quite entertained. 10/10 for me.

It's gonna take a lot for any other series this year to top this for me, personally. Madoka Magica is easily a front-runner for Best Anime of 2011. Now, let's have that more lighthearted slice-of-life version they mentioned. I could go for some Houkago Mahou Shoujo Time. Mami can provide the tea and cakes, even.

[ninryu]

I would be happier with HomuMado and KyuoSaya, though. : \

[Taufiq91]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Um, no it didn't.

I have no problem with the rest of your post, but this part is simply not accurate.

Madoka's wish is clearly portrayed in a mostly positive light. It is clearly "good".


And that's perfectly fine, imo.

Well, it's an open interpretation, so it's cool.

[Snork]

I guess I'm in a minority here. I not only love the ending, it made total sense to me. I mean...

Buddy, do you read the topic thoroughly? We are plenty!

Mami can provide the tea and cakes, even.

And we have Nekomura to replace Azunyan.

I would be happier with HomuMado and KyuoSaya, though. : \

Sigh, so would I... so would I...

[Triple_R]

For those longing to see all the girls happily together, I have a sneaking suspicion that Shinbo is going to do "Madoka Magica: The K-On! Years" within a year or two.

[DJLowrider]

Originally Posted by Snork

Buddy, do you read the topic thoroughly? We are plenty!

22 pages is a bit daunting to go back and read, but I'll take your word for it.

And we have Nekomura to replace Azunyan.

I can't decide if I'd rather see Nekomura or Meganekko Homura. Combining the two is just too dangerous to contemplate.