2011-12-04, 14:25 | Link #17981 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Likewise with something like Lebanon or the PA it doesn't work at all, as the "enemy" you're dealing with is not a regular armed force, but a mob. A mob is not dismayed by a larger force like that, because they simply switch to irregular fighting. They have nothing to lose, so they keep fighting, forever. To have security you either need to be strong enough to repel them from attacking you, and for the enemies who aren't repelled by your greater strength, you have to eliminate their resource base. In the case of a regular opponent that's easy, you destroy their industry etc. With a guerilla force, you need to eliminate their popular support. When their popular support is destroyed, the organisation can no longer draw new recruits, or secure the funding required for it's operations. Israel can cut the support of palestinians with direct economic measures. With the aid coming from other countries it's far more difficult, but it requires a certain amount of diplomacy. Quote:
EDIT: I agree that the settlers and palestinians deserve one another. |
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2011-12-04, 14:27 | Link #17982 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Also the term "peace process" was generally introduced sometime in the mid 70's to describe the American led efforts in bringing about a negotiated peace between Israel and its neighbors, so I guess that's why it generally refers to only to Israel. It's the type of "peace process" that Americans only really cared about. I think it's just idiomatic, like anti-semitism. If it makes you feel any better, I have personally never used that term and I suppose if I had to I'd also apply it to the other Arab countries at odds with each other if it seems appropriate.
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2011-12-04, 14:41 | Link #17983 | ||||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
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your first flawed assumption is that the people fighting us actually fight us because they want to fight us. they fight us because it gets them to power, and once they're IN power, they want to maintain it, which is something they'll risk losing by ACTUALLY fighting us, and hence limit themselves to words and smaller actions rather then continued war. neither Hizballah nor Hamas are organized government bodies, and yet they both understand that attacking Israel brings more problems then its worth (albiet, it required us "explaining it" to them). our border with Lebanon is mostly silent (with Hizballah enforcing that silence against smaller groups), and Hamas knows better then to try the kind of crap they pulled before cast lead and are limiting themselves to small attacks carried out by smaller groups within the strip (sometimes, without Hamas's approval). these people are our enemies, but they are our enemies in charge, and they wish to remain in charge, and so they endeavor to be loud about being our enemies while in practice trying to avoid ACTUAL conflict. and when (not if) the Muslim brotherhood comes to power in Egypt, you'll have the same situation. talking about fighting Israel, thats useful. ACTUALLY fighting Israel, is harmful. your second flawed assumption is that there will ever be a situation where there ISN'T a strong man. Assad is a strong man, sure, but so is Nassralla (from Hizballah) and that Haniya fellow from Hamas. there will always be someone in charge, and that someone will ALWAYS seek to maintain that position. Quote:
it is the thing, and the whole of the thing. guerilla isn't about winning the war, its about attrition, and you can't attrition someone out of their home. THAT requires force. Quote:
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this is the middle east, nothing is ever resolved, nothing is ever truly solved. we signed a peace treaty with Egypt decades ago, and yet i can't be sure said treaty would still exist a couple of months from now. we're at war with Syria, but there hasn't been open hostilities between our countries for a while now. conflict management is more effective them conflict resolution, because conflict management is actually practical.
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2011-12-04, 15:16 | Link #17984 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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About Syria, in 1974 Israel and Syria reached a disengagement agreement and the tense relations thereafter mean that Syria, unless I'm mistaken, has been supplying arms to Hezbollah, thereby waging a sort of proxy-war. I think the reason nothing is ever truly resolved is because there are too many people in power with that mindset.
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2011-12-04, 16:29 | Link #17985 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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secondly that assumes that Israel can maintain it's position as regional hegemon indefinitely. It can certainly beat any of it's neighbours individually, and has beaten them all at once in the past, but all those countries were much weaker, and Israel had allies in Europe, the US and Turkey. Turkey already has frayed relations with Israel, Europe likewise, and who knows how long America will stick around if Israel keeps ignoring their requests (like to halt settlement construction etc.) No country can exist on it's own without allies. On it's current course, Israel will isolate itself from it's neighbours, and potential allies in the west, afterwhich when shit really hits the fan, no one will be around to help them. What you describe can work, but it's an extremely unstable equilibrium, and can seldom last very long. Quote:
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2011-12-04, 17:51 | Link #17986 | ||||||||||||
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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I haven't seen a growing rift between Hareidim and Secular Israelis. If anything it seems to be improving. Quote:
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People who live in settlements are entitled to the same right to life as anyone, so natural growth is mandatory. Quote:
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2011-12-04, 18:38 | Link #17987 | |||||||||||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Likewise, Jews are driven by their own type of nationalism, commonly called Zionism. Quote:
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Last edited by DonQuigleone; 2011-12-04 at 18:54. |
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2011-12-04, 19:02 | Link #17988 | |||||||||||||
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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Couple that with the venom spewed by extremist clerics against Jews and it seems to me that at least in the hearts and minds of many, the issue is religious not nationalistic. Quote:
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Arab voting for Kadima, Labour, Meretz etc is on the rise, though I doubt many would publicly admit to it. I have Israeli Arab friends who are the same. Quote:
You can't say a large proportion are. You can't say they aren't either. You just don't know. I can understand your point of course, but Israel currently does quite a bit to try and minimize civilian casualties. It took them years to respond to the rocket fire from Gaza. Quote:
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Why not take Hamas at their word when they say they want to slaughter the Jews? It's a religious war for them. Complete with martyrdom. It's serious business. Quote:
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Bedouin are in the invidious position of running into Planning Laws with the High Court. Similar to the Travelling community here in the UK. That's another story, however. Quote:
He also doesn't speak for the right. He speaks for Yisrael Beiteinu voters who compromise a small minority of Israeli society. Quote:
But yes, the Jewish people lived all over. Take the 1 million Jews thrown out of Arab lands in 1948 for example. What's your point? Quote:
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2011-12-04, 20:41 | Link #17989 | ||||||||||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Likewise, regarding the temple mount, they allow christians(or whoever) to pray there largely because there isn't many of them. Jews aren't allowed there because they're the "national enemy". If it was Irish people flooding the Israel, I'm sure they'd promptly ban Catholics too. Quote:
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Often times Nations can exist on very tenuous grounds. Palestinians are little different from the Arabs in the countries surrounding them, and yet they label themselves a "nation". Likewise there's little major stuff differentiating the average Irishman from an Englishman, especially after the Irish language faded out of existence. If you look at the Balkans the nations there have an extremely tenuous basis. Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks all speak a similiar language, the only major difference between them is that Serbs are Orthodox, Croats Catholic and Bosniaks Muslim. Religion can often play a part in defining the "nation". Nationalist movements have their place, but they're all based on the central conceipt that their nation exists in some meaningful way, and that they have some special place in history. In reality, a nation does not exist. So agitating that "this land must belong to this nation" is a rather strange thing. Zionism is neither the worst or most extreme example of nationalism, but it is an interesting one, given how dispersed Jews were. Quote:
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There's also the issue that these settlements are expanding into land that is not explicitly theres, and most of the surrounding Arab residents strongly object to it. Quote:
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So just because one group of Jews were living in Israel, and may even at some point been a majority, though I disagree on that point, it does not justify all the other Jews to have a right to live there. Just as all the Irish Americans in the US don't have some kind of right to live in Ireland, or live in Northern Ireland and crowd out the Ulster Scots. A lot of Irish people live in Boston, and form a majority there. That does not mean that all the Irish people have the fundamental right to immigrate there and take political control. The large minority of Americans would have greater precedence. However Israel exists, and that is a fact. However I disapprove that it is an explicitly Jewish State. It should be a state that is multi-ethnic and multi-religous, reflecting the multi-ethnic character of it's formation and native population. The Holy land was a melting pot of many cultures, and should have been established as such. Jews should not have received preference, nor should have Palestinians, as substantial number of native Jews, Druze etc. were already living there. Quote:
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2011-12-04, 21:53 | Link #17990 | ||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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I'm fairly certain that Israel's retaliation would ratchet up if the Palestinians became more aggressive, and Israel certainly has the greater capability to make people miserable if they wanted to. Hence there's a sort of uneasy balance - the militants have to keep proving that they can back up their words, but if they push Israel too far then they may find themselves in a situation that they can't handle. They are ultimately powerless against Israel because of fighting capability; Israel is only limited by the support that its population and allies give for retaliation.
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2011-12-04, 22:19 | Link #17991 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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[QUOTE=Ledgem;3887544]While I agree with what you're saying, Hamas is arguably a proxy of Iran. If Iran weren't there to egg on and support further conflict, how likely is it that a powerful, organized group would arise? Not overly likely, I'd imagine.
[quote] To be fair, there's a lot of other Jihadist groups throughout Palestine, Hamas is just the most prominent. Even if it does receive funding from Iran, there's a long history of militant groups receiving funding from wealthy backers. The IRA could not have existed but for wealthy Irish-Americans who donated to it. But both movements were acting on sentiments that were already existing within the populace. Quote:
Furthermore, if Europe and America removed the guarantee from Israel, there'd be no reason for other countries to start interfering, say Russia could start dipping it's fingers back into the region, or European powers could align with Arab powers against Israeli interests. For instance, if I was France, and Egypt offered me exclusive economic rights of some kind in return for backing up Egypt in a treaty negotiation with Israel, well I might take them up on it if I knew the USA wasn't going to interfere. Fighting the 6 day war was a real trick for Israel, but I doubt they could repeat it again, or survive in the long term surrounded by hostile governments, no government has managed to do so previously. Additionally, if Israel gets really stroppy, it may not be the Arabs that are causing them problems... Quote:
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2011-12-05, 00:03 | Link #17994 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
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It's easier yes but the said ''wider hammer'' is far from a scalpel. Ground operation might be more precise ( depending of the mean used) but you put your troup much in harm way than from the air.
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2011-12-05, 00:24 | Link #17996 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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To bring some news into the subject while not really changing the subject:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45542885...east_n_africa/ Egyptian election results deepen Israeli fears A question...the Israeli are fencing their borders. Will this become a way to keep people out....or will it turn out to be a thing to keep the Israeli in one giant place.
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2011-12-05, 01:18 | Link #17999 | |||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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It's a way to keep people out. The fence concept isn't new; people complained about it originally, but after it was built, the number of suicide bombing attacks within Israel declined.
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2011-12-05, 05:02 | Link #18000 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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U.S. Asks South Korea to Cut Petrochemical Imports From Iran
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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