[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Reality Breaker 2.0

Claire said that, had Battler come earlier or later, a smaller tragedy in comparison to the disaster that happened on Rokkenjima could've happened instead. What did she mean exactly? Sayo was suicidal. Was she just going to kill herself?

In truth in 1986 the BIG tragedy was bound to happen. As long as the epitaph exists, the adults are in economical troubles and with bad relations they would end up solving it, arguing and killing each other.
Sayo thinks she's the cause behind their behaviour but we know that in Lion's world, where Lion does nothing in that regard, as soon as Kinzo proposes the epitaph, tragedy is bound to strike.

As for the small tragedy we've two options.
Either the tragedy is Kanon's disappearance (if Battler came in 1985 Sayo would have probably chosen him, if Battler came in 1987, Sayo thinks she would have left with George. In both cases Kanon has to go) or yes, it's Sayo's suicide as she would still be unable to face the truth but wouldn't challenge anyone to a murder game.
Theoretically there's a third option and is that the BIG tragedy would still happen but as there wouldn't be murder game and therefore no message bottles no legend of the witch would be created.

Originally Posted by Reality Breaker 2.0

Also, Sayo doubted her relationship with George from the start, yes? Why did she get into a relationship she, as aforementioned, doubted from the start?

Well, not everyone gets in a relationship confident it'll surely work. Some people just get close to each other and TRY to see if being together works.
Add that Sayo's biggest dream was to be loved, that she hoped that by being with George she could forget Battler and that she slowly started to like George.

In the beginning she didn't know the truth about herself so it wasn't so impossible for her relationship to work and even when she later found out she couldn't let go of the hope George would accept her. She also couldn't let go of the fear he would reject her.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I do have a few questions, first off, I'm reading episode 8's manga and came across this scene, what's going on here?

The first scene is the one in which Eva had told Ange that her father used to disappear when he was younger. Here she remembers how Rudolf used to hide with various servants to make out with them.

The second scene is about Rudolf about to tell Kyrie that he switched her baby and Asumu's. Ange incidentally catches sight of them and gets closer.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Second I am still wondering what Rudolf meant when he stated he would likely be killed in episode one; was he talking about what he was scared Kyrie may do to him once he told her and Battler his secret?

Very likely that's the case. Of course he could have been about to tell them they were about to go bankrupted but more likely he wanted to tell them the truth about them.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Lastly, What did Rudolf even do for his job, same with Kyrie?

Umineko isn't very clear about it but that's what it says:

Rudolf had been building a large amount of wealth with a certain type of niche market.
...However, a niche is a niche.
It's definitely not a sunny job.
An American corporate giant was trying to accuse Rudolf's company of violating their rights.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Rudolf mentions Kyrie frequently fights and can defend herself, Kryie mentions that she had to take care of women who were after woman and Rudolf seems to work with some shady guys. So does he have an actual job, like what business is he in?

Kyrie's ability to fight and take care of herself is unrelated to the job. Kyrie was a Sumadera, and she was meant to become the Sumadera head. Sumadera are sort of a Yakuza clan so it can be that Kyrie simply learnt in her home how to fight.
As for the women she took care of, they were love rivals in Rudolf's affection.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by Witch of Uncertainty

What do you mean? Rudolf is about to tell Kyrie about Battler in that scene. The scene above is Rudolf having sex with women everywhere.
And same with EP1. That was him just being dramatic (or maybe not).
Their specific jobs were never specified.

Oh no lol, I read that, I meant what Eva was telling Ange, the way the scene look I thought Eva was doing nasty things with Rudolf so I just wanted verification haha.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The first scene is the one in which Eva had told Ange that her father used to disappear when he was younger. Here she remembers how Rudolf used to hide with various servants to make out with them.

The second scene is about Rudolf about to tell Kyrie that he switched her baby and Asumu's. Ange incidentally catches sight of them and gets closer.

Ah okay, I thought he was making out with Eva or something, that wouldn't have surprised me too much given the crazy affairs that had happened up until then but still lol.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Very likely that's the case. Of course he could have been about to tell them they were about to go bankrupted but more likely he wanted to tell them the truth about them.

I can see that too. Originally I thought he and Rosa somehow knew they were going to die, he said at the beginning of episode 2 he knows he is going to hell, and a few other things that left me to believe he was planning something or knew something bad was going to happen. I thought maybe Beatrice paid him a visit or something. I dunno if Kyrie would kill him over going bankrupt but I can see that too.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Umineko isn't very clear about it but that's what it says:

Ah, I see, I just couldn't tell if it was a legal job or not, he seemed to be the head of the company and Kyrie worked with him so I don't know if his company was a shady business or Rudolf himself was doing shady things from inside the company.

So we have

Rudolf: ?? Unspecified niche market that may or may not be legal (Porn, illegal weapons lol)

Kyrie: Works with/under Rudolf

Hideyoshi: Runs a medium sized restaurant chain

Eva: ?? Housewife/stay at home mom?

Krauss: Real Estate investor

Natsuhi: Manages the house on Rokkenjima/ in charge of hiring process of servants

Rosa: Manages a Western clothing company

Rosa's ex husband: ??
George: Works somewhere in his father's business

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Kyrie's ability to fight and take care of herself is unrelated to the job. Kyrie was a Sumadera, and she was meant to become the Sumadera head. Sumadera are sort of a Yakuza clan so it can be that Kyrie simply learnt in her home how to fight.
As for the women she took care of, they were love rivals in Rudolf's affection.

Ohh, that's right, that makes sense, interestingly enough I actually liked Kyrie's sister as a character more than I thought I would. Still, I didn't know Kyrie did those love trials, i thought only George, Shannon, Jessica, and Kanon participated and that the foes they faced were just placed there. I was mainly referring to episode 7 when Kyrie was killing Jessica and she said "Sorry Jessica, but your aunt is sued to bashing girls' faces in" or something like that. Either way she was one crazy mofo, I'm surprised she never ranked all that high on the popularity boards, even among the adults (Excluding Hideyoshi because he had almost zero development despite being the nicest relative and the one I would prefer to be friends with lol).

Anyway I saw a few comments on Youtube discussing this but do the Stakes of Purgatory have a connection to the adults? Or represent them? I saw some interesting theories but I always thought the representation went like this:

Krauss: Pride
Natsuhi: Wrath
Eva: Greed
Hideyoshi: Gluttony
Rudolf: Sloth
Kyrie: Envy
Rosa: Lust

Not sure if that was ever expanded upon.

Lastly, I heard somewhere (Probably here when I was a lurker) that Featherine is meant to represent Ryukishi and he stated through Featherine that everyone who believed in Bern's truth are "pigs who cannot read" and expresses how disappointed he feels.
Bern can still say that the tea party is true. To understand why, you must know what the meta is. Or something like that, which was meant to go against the whole Rudolf/Kyrie culprit theory since, as they explained "Ep 7 tea party never happened like this. Or at least not in prime. The truth was different. And that was Ryukishi's main point: the red is put together to suggest a certain truth. But there is a truth that is far more fragile. This was the point of all the games - in ep 1 Natsuhi puts the letter on the table, in episode 2 Rosa is not the culprit, in ep 3 the culprit is not Eva, in ep 5 the culprit is not Natsuhi and in ep 7 the culprits aren't Rudolf and Kyrie! But they are ALL accomplices!"

Which would have been sound and made sense on Ryu07's part if he didn't make the manga to give a definitive truth, seems kinda weird, why not just leave it as a VN if that was the case? or am I missing something? Sorry for the book, it's good to have people to discuss this sorta hidden series with.

[AuraTwilight]

I'd swap around the parents and their sins a little. Natsuhi is Pride, Rosa is Wrath, Rudolf is Lust, and Krauss is Sloth.

[gimji]

Hi, guys. I have a question to ask.

As the manga version of ep.8 reveal that the meta world is real and not just a forgery. So, I want to ask that who exactly is this Claire that Will's killed in ep.7?

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

I'd swap around the parents and their sins a little. Natsuhi is Pride, Rosa is Wrath, Rudolf is Lust, and Krauss is Sloth.

Krauss is sloth? How so? I thought he was working hard to get his job underway but he was to prideful as the next head to allow anyone to help.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by gimji

Hi, guys. I have a question to ask.

As the manga version of ep.8 reveal that the meta world is real and not just a forgery. So, I want to ask that who exactly is this Claire that Will's killed in ep.7?

The meta isn't exactly 'real', it's more like a spirit world... but yes, it technically exists and it's not a forgery.

There's no official explanation for who's Clair beyond that the shape the culprit is allowed to take to hide the culprit's 'ugly' true form.

An interesting speculation is that Clair is the personification of the Confession Sayo tossed in the sea... or of the side of Sayo who thought she would become the culprit and that was basically 'killed' by Sayo herself when the adults solved the epitaph and that was later turned into PieceCulprit if you want on the gameboards.

This would explain why Clair do not know what happened to Prime Rokkenjima (she doesn't know Prime Battler remembered his promise and wanted to take her away) nor she's completely aware of what happened on the Meta (MetaBeatrice in Ep 8 is aware that Battler finally remembered in Ep 5) and believes Battler never remembered about her and their promise.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I can see that too. Originally I thought he and Rosa somehow knew they were going to die, he said at the beginning of episode 2 he knows he is going to hell, and a few other things that left me to believe he was planning something or knew something bad was going to happen. I thought maybe Beatrice paid him a visit or something. I dunno if Kyrie would kill him over going bankrupt but I can see that too.

Well, his 'fear of getting killed' might be just a way to say. Sort of like 'I screwed up and I expect a big scolding'.
Interesting enough while in the first 2 episodes it looks like Kyrie is unaware of the mess Rudolf made in his job and sort of left out of the plan to squeeze money out of Krauss, in the following she looks like she's aware of this and his partner in squeezing money. Actually Ep 5 implies she pushed Rudolf to action and Ep 4 shows how she's the one who speak to Krauss while in Ep 3 Rudolf affirms he trusts her.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Ah, I see, I just couldn't tell if it was a legal job or not, he seemed to be the head of the company and Kyrie worked with him so I don't know if his company was a shady business or Rudolf himself was doing shady things from inside the company.

As for Rudolf's job there's this other bit from Ep 6:

Under the mottos of 'if you do it you've done it' and 'as long as you can get away with it', he would alternate between setting up businesses that were borderline swindles or illegal, then running away.
I've heard that in his college years, he was already making use of that talent, thinking up shameless projects and cleverly making money through the panic selling of party tickets, so much so that he could brag about carrying a wallet full of a hundred 10,000 yen notes all the time......

And this bit from Ep 7

"......It's no different from squeezing dough out of a group of morons. ......The same old game of musical chairs. If there's a pile of money in front of you, the first one to reach it wins. The slow ones just get kicked down to hell."
Haven't I driven dozens of poor fools into debt with my earlier swindles?
Several of those probably ended up bankrupt, and some of those might've hanged themselves. And I always laughed, saying that was none of my business.

I'm not sure if this applies to what he did when he was young only or it's also his actual work though... but I guess it gives us an idea of how Rudolf's company was likely not a really honest one.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Ohh, that's right, that makes sense, interestingly enough I actually liked Kyrie's sister as a character more than I thought I would. Still, I didn't know Kyrie did those love trials, i thought only George, Shannon, Jessica, and Kanon participated and that the foes they faced were just placed there. I was mainly referring to episode 7 when Kyrie was killing Jessica and she said "Sorry Jessica, but your aunt is sued to bashing girls' faces in" or something like that. Either way she was one crazy mofo, I'm surprised she never ranked all that high on the popularity boards, even among the adults (Excluding Hideyoshi because he had almost zero development despite being the nicest relative and the one I would prefer to be friends with lol).

Well, Kyrie probably didn't go through a love trial like the one in Ep 6,, with magic and all, but girls were always running after Rudolf and she probably had to deal with the most insistant with not too nice means.
Which made all the more painful for her how Asumu managed to sweep under her radar and get Rudolf before Kyrie could even notice.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Anyway I saw a few comments on Youtube discussing this but do the Stakes of Purgatory have a connection to the adults? Or represent them? I saw some interesting theories but I always thought the representation went like this:

Krauss: Pride
Natsuhi: Wrath
Eva: Greed
Hideyoshi: Gluttony
Rudolf: Sloth
Kyrie: Envy
Rosa: Lust

Not sure if that was ever expanded upon.

There are theories but none of them is officially confirmed.

All the times Hideyoshi had been staked it was by the stake of gluttony and he's a glutton so it's a pretty safe connection.
In Ep 3 Kyrie got staked by Greed... but it's clear she also has a 'special' connection with Envy (although she's greedy enough to start a massacre).
In Ep 3 Kyrie got staked by Lust... but it's clear he also has a 'special' connection with Sloth (and Lust and Sloth are both his sins).
Eva got staked by Lust once.
Krauss got staked by Pride once (and it's one of his sins, all right).
Natsuhi got staked by Wrath once (and it's one of her sins, all right).
Rosa never got staked.
Krauss and Kyrie get staked in ep 4 also but the stake name is left unsaid.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Lastly, I heard somewhere (Probably here when I was a lurker) that Featherine is meant to represent Ryukishi and he stated through Featherine that everyone who believed in Bern's truth are "pigs who cannot read" and expresses how disappointed he feels.

It's a popular theory and it's possible it's true. Ryukishi though is usually much more diplomatic in expressing his view in interviews...

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Bern can still say that the tea party is true. To understand why, you must know what the meta is. Or something like that, which was meant to go against the whole Rudolf/Kyrie culprit theory since, as they explained "Ep 7 tea party never happened like this. Or at least not in prime. The truth was different. And that was Ryukishi's main point: the red is put together to suggest a certain truth. But there is a truth that is far more fragile. This was the point of all the games - in ep 1 Natsuhi puts the letter on the table, in episode 2 Rosa is not the culprit, in ep 3 the culprit is not Eva, in ep 5 the culprit is not Natsuhi and in ep 7 the culprits aren't Rudolf and Kyrie! But they are ALL accomplices!"

Which would have been sound and made sense on Ryu07's part if he didn't make the manga to give a definitive truth, seems kinda weird, why not just leave it as a VN if that was the case? or am I missing something? Sorry for the book, it's good to have people to discuss this sorta hidden series with.

Ryukishi, once Umineko was ended, said he decided that later on he would reveal the truth. You know, when you propose a riddle is fun to see the other to struggle in order to come up with an answer... but I guess after a while the game gets old and you're okay with giving him the truth.

Likely Ryukishi wanted to see people keeping on struggling for a while longer with the new info he gave in Ep 8... and then felt it was all right to stop and give answers, allowing everyone to see if their theories were right or wrong.

That or he thought it would be really easy for people to reach the truth with just the VN alone and when this didn't happen he realized he had to lower the difficulty of the riddles and began to give out info after info (not all though, there are still things he left unanswered).

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Krauss is sloth? How so? I thought he was working hard to get his job underway but he was to prideful as the next head to allow anyone to help.

Invert that, and he's someone too reliant on his status as firstborn son to do all the effort, studying, and personal training Eva put herself through. He keeps putting his hopes and money on get-rich-quick schemes instead of relying on stable, reliable business ventures. Almost all of his actions are about putting off the consequences of his actions (such as the whole dead Kinzo thing) instead of doing something to solve the problem his family is in, right down to going off about Kinzo's gold and the epitaph at some point.

Krauss is the epitome of Sloth. He has affectations of Pride, but that's just his boasting of credit he hasn't earned yet. He puts in the effort to look more successful than his siblings but not enough to actually do it.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, his 'fear of getting killed' might be just a way to say. Sort of like 'I screwed up and I expect a big scolding'.
Interesting enough while in the first 2 episodes it looks like Kyrie is unaware of the mess Rudolf made in his job and sort of left out of the plan to squeeze money out of Krauss, in the following she looks like she's aware of this and his partner in squeezing money. Actually Ep 5 implies she pushed Rudolf to action and Ep 4 shows how she's the one who speak to Krauss while in Ep 3 Rudolf affirms he trusts her.

That's interesting, I was always curious just how deep the relationship between the two actually were. On one end, Kyrie seems to be obsessed with Rudolf and would devote herself body and soul to him and sees anyone else as an obstacle if they get close to him, at the same time, in the tea party when Kyrie found out he died she didn't seem to care and even seem relieved. At the same time you have Rudolf who even while dating Kyrie was seeing other woman and flirting with other females even if Kyrie seemed to notice, but at the same time he does trust her and seemed to value her in his flashback and felt guilty about deceiving her all these years. I dunno it would have been cool to see them alone outside of Rokkenjima to see how deep the relationship was. Plus, interestingly enough the two were never sacrifices for the 2nd twilight.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

As for Rudolf's job there's this other bit from Ep 6:



And this bit from Ep 7



I'm not sure if this applies to what he did when he was young only or it's also his actual work though... but I guess it gives us an idea of how Rudolf's company was likely not a really honest one.

I see, I can see him doing some corrupt pyramid scheme kind of stuff. But Ange did state he was a terrible person and as much as I like the character I can see why. I do kinda like how vague it is but as you said it probably ins't an honest one by any means. And Kyrie's yakuza roots probably helped in these schemes.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, Kyrie probably didn't go through a love trial like the one in Ep 6,, with magic and all, but girls were always running after Rudolf and she probably had to deal with the most insistant with not too nice means.
Which made all the more painful for her how Asumu managed to sweep under her radar and get Rudolf before Kyrie could even notice.

Ah I see. I always wondered, if Kyrie hates Asumu so much why did she never confront her? At least before she got pregnant, and did Asumu not know about Kyrie? She seemed smart enough to know Battler was not her baby. It would have been cool to see more of her.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

There are theories but none of them is officially confirmed.

All the times Hideyoshi had been staked it was by the stake of gluttony and he's a glutton so it's a pretty safe connection.
In Ep 3 Kyrie got staked by Greed... but it's clear she also has a 'special' connection with Envy (although she's greedy enough to start a massacre).
In Ep 3 Rudolf got staked by Lust... but it's clear he also has a 'special' connection with Sloth (and Lust and Sloth are both his sins).
Eva got staked by Lust once.
Krauss got staked by Pride once (and it's one of his sins, all right).
Natsuhi got staked by Wrath once (and it's one of her sins, all right).
Rosa never got staked.
Krauss and Kyrie get staked in ep 4 also but the stake name is left unsaid.

That's interesting, I forgot they can represent multiple sins, but Lust for Eva? I forgot that one, Rosa is another interesting theory for her alone. I dunno if Kyrie did all of it for greed though, when Rudolf offered to simply retire in the country she said that would be too boring, it seems like she just liked the thrill, and Rudolf too of course.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

t's a popular theory and it's possible it's true. Ryukishi though is usually much more diplomatic in expressing his view in interviews...



Ryukishi, once Umineko was ended, said he decided that later on he would reveal the truth. You know, when you propose a riddle is fun to see the other to struggle in order to come up with an answer... but I guess after a while the game gets old and you're okay with giving him the truth.

Likely Ryukishi wanted to see people keeping on struggling for a while longer with the new info he gave in Ep 8... and then felt it was all right to stop and give answers, allowing everyone to see if their theories were right or wrong.

That or he thought it would be really easy for people to reach the truth with just the VN alone and when this didn't happen he realized he had to lower the difficulty of the riddles and began to give out info after info (not all though, there are still things he left unanswered).

That makes sense and I respect that, I guess those feelings were likely well before the manga even came into thought, and I can see how it may be frustrating for an author's intended results to be dampened by people not trying to think for themselves, it takes out the fun. Still, now the only problem is that those who read the manga use it as the holy piece of evidence to disprove all theories no matter how well thought out, kinda kills the fun of the discussion.

How long did it take you guys to finish the VN anyway? Took me like 2 months, but it was on and off plus school and work. Anyone read through it more than once? I read the manga and was almost burned out but I know re-reading gives you a bit more enjoyment when you notice the smaller details.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Invert that, and he's someone too reliant on his status as firstborn son to do all the effort, studying, and personal training Eva put herself through. He keeps putting his hopes and money on get-rich-quick schemes instead of relying on stable, reliable business ventures. Almost all of his actions are about putting off the consequences of his actions (such as the whole dead Kinzo thing) instead of doing something to solve the problem his family is in, right down to going off about Kinzo's gold and the epitaph at some point.

Krauss is the epitome of Sloth. He has affectations of Pride, but that's just his boasting of credit he hasn't earned yet. He puts in the effort to look more successful than his siblings but not enough to actually do it.

I disagree completely. His failure to be successful is not at all do to sloth, merely incompetence. He puts in the effort, he just trusts the wrong people and makes bad calls.

[AuraTwilight]

It's both, really. His Sloth is why he relies on too-good-to-be-true gambles instead of putting in the effort to make reliable but less profitable investments.

He is literally the epitome of Sloth as defined in biblical morality, which is more than just 'laziness', but also trying to take the easier road (Get rich quick schemes and the like) and refusing to self-improve because you think you're good enough. Krauss using sexism and status to justify his headship is a case of Sloth, not Pride, because he's using things he was born with as opposed to things he created or worked on himself.

If we were trying to assign Eva something besides Greed, she'd be Pride because of her obsession with recognition and her obsession with earning it however she can. Krauss passively rests on his laurels, content that the headship is guaranteed by his mere rank of birth.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's both, really. His Sloth is why he relies on too-good-to-be-true gambles instead of putting in the effort to make reliable but less profitable investments.

He is literally the epitome of Sloth as defined in biblical morality, which is more than just 'laziness', but also trying to take the easier road (Get rich quick schemes and the like) and refusing to self-improve because you think you're good enough.

You just described Rudolph, which is why I have him as sloth.

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Krauss using sexism and status to justify his headship is a case of Sloth, not Pride, because he's using things he was born with as opposed to things he created or worked on himself.

If we were trying to assign Eva something besides Greed, she'd be Pride because of her obsession with recognition and her obsession with earning it however she can. Krauss passively rests on his laurels, content that the headship is guaranteed by his mere rank of birth.

You can be proud about something you are born with. Krauss is constantly overly trusting of his buisness parnters because of his pride as a businessman. He makes verabal deals always blames poor conditions rather than his poor judgement due to his pride.
There are definitely multiple people with multiple sins.
Rudolph - Sloth, Lust Rosa - Lust, Wrath Natsuhi - Wrath, Pride Eva - Greed, Pride Kyrie - Envy, Greed
But I really just don't see Sloth for Krauss. Out of the ones I listed the only one that I'm not entirely satesfied with is Wrath over Pride for Natsuhi, and while putting sloth on Krauss frees pride up (and gives Rudlph Lust and Rosa Wrath, as many people often peg them) I still think Pride fits Krauss far more, and Lust and Sloth are definitely my #1 pick for Rosa and Rudolph respectively.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

That's interesting, I was always curious just how deep the relationship between the two actually were. On one end, Kyrie seems to be obsessed with Rudolf and would devote herself body and soul to him and sees anyone else as an obstacle if they get close to him, at the same time, in the tea party when Kyrie found out he died she didn't seem to care and even seem relieved.

Well, we've no official answers for this one so it's possible to make two theories.

One is that Kyrie only faked being relieved and said what she said to push Eva to kill her because, with Rudolf dead, she had no reasons to go on.

The other is that Kyrie is aware that her relationship with Rudolf is toxic but she can't let go of him as long as he's alive. Now that he's dead she thinks she can finally be free as well.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

At the same time you have Rudolf who even while dating Kyrie was seeing other woman and flirting with other females even if Kyrie seemed to notice, but at the same time he does trust her and seemed to value her in his flashback and felt guilty about deceiving her all these years.

Rudolf in a way got a lot for Kinzo in terms of selfishness. He chose Asumu because Asumu was kinder to him, but refused to let go of Kyrie because Kyrie was useful to him. Back when this happened he wasn't completely amoral so he felt some regret in stealing Kyrie's child... but never as much as to settle things when they were alive.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I dunno it would have been cool to see them alone outside of Rokkenjima to see how deep the relationship was. Plus, interestingly enough the two were never sacrifices for the 2nd twilight.

I totally agree. It's a pity Umineko only has few sidestories and that not all of them got trasposed in the manga version. I would have loved to see many more sidestories about the charaters!

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I see, I can see him doing some corrupt pyramid scheme kind of stuff. But Ange did state he was a terrible person and as much as I like the character I can see why. I do kinda like how vague it is but as you said it probably ins't an honest one by any means. And Kyrie's yakuza roots probably helped in these schemes.

In the manga they add that Rudolf had been involved in fraudolent bussiness and was guilty of breaching contract agreements with an American company (that's why he needed money, because he lost the trial about it).

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Ah I see. I always wondered, if Kyrie hates Asumu so much why did she never confront her? At least before she got pregnant, and did Asumu not know about Kyrie? She seemed smart enough to know Battler was not her baby. It would have been cool to see more of her.

Because Kyrie never thought much of Asumu. They both knew about each other but Kyrie though Asumu wouldn't catch Rudolf's eyes that much he'll tie himself to her and that, at worst, he would just sleep with her (Rudolf was used to sleeping around back then as well). However Asumu instead managed to worm her way into Rudolf's heart so that not only he was willing to marry her when she got pregnant but he was also willing to chose her over Kyrie when Asumu lost her baby.
Kyrie tried confronting Asumu when she discovered she was pregnant as well as Asumu but, back then, Asumu was already married to Rudolf and just chased her off. Back then Kyrie wasn't ready to become a murderer yet and Asumu's stance apparently surprised her enough that Kyrie didn't know how to react to it.

The fact that she lost Rudolf to Asumu tormented Kyrie greatly. She blamed herself for being to confident and undervaluing Asumu... and all her feelings not only caused her envy and jealousy to grow out of proportions but also lead her to be insane enough to be willing to start a massacre to 'help Rudolf'.

Said this I would have loved to see more of her and Asumu as well. It's really a pity Asumu (and her family who took care of Battler after her dead) got mostly glossed over.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

That's interesting, I forgot they can represent multiple sins, but Lust for Eva? I forgot that one, Rosa is another interesting theory for her alone. I dunno if Kyrie did all of it for greed though, when Rudolf offered to simply retire in the country she said that would be too boring, it seems like she just liked the thrill, and Rudolf too of course.

Eva gets staked with Lust in Ep 1, after she made love with Hideyoshi. However originally the sin of Lust was connected not just to sexual desires but was merelyan intense and uncontrolled desire that could include the uncontrolled desire for money, food, fame, or power.

Eva desires the headship and the power so Lust in the old sense of the sin can still fit to Eva.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

That makes sense and I respect that, I guess those feelings were likely well before the manga even came into thought, and I can see how it may be frustrating for an author's intended results to be dampened by people not trying to think for themselves, it takes out the fun. Still, now the only problem is that those who read the manga use it as the holy piece of evidence to disprove all theories no matter how well thought out, kinda kills the fun of the discussion.

The manga is not a holy piece but it's the solution, the final chapter of the mystery. In a mystery generally the game is to find out who's the culprit, how he did murder the people and why before the final chapter.
You can, of course, procrastinate and theorize to your heart content before reading the final chapter but when all is said and done your solution must match with the one in the final chapter for you to have won the game against the author.
Without the final chapter though... it's not possible to establish if you got it right.

Of course you can decide you don't give a damn about the solution the author wanted you to guess. You want to find your own solution, the one you'll like.

There's nothing wrong in this but, at this point, it's no more a game between you and the author but a solitaire. You were challenged to find the solution the author thought, you decided instead to find a solution you liked.

It's like playing cards. You can play card games with another player or you can just decide to play by yourself. Ryukishi was fine with both possibilities.

I think it can be extremely fun to find alternate solutions for Umineko... and that lovely discussions can be spun by this... but the problems come when one tries to force the alternate solutions, which are nothing else but a variant of fancanon on the others, claiming they have to be canon.

So you see, I don't think having an official answer kills the discussion. I think the discussion is killed when one tries to force the others to accept that an unofficial answer is the true one.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

How long did it take you guys to finish the VN anyway? Took me like 2 months, but it was on and off plus school and work. Anyone read through it more than once? I read the manga and was almost burned out but I know re-reading gives you a bit more enjoyment when you notice the smaller details.

Hum... no idea, I didn't read it all in one go.
I'm re-reading it though and yes, re-reading it now that I know the solution is also an interesting experience.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Krauss is constantly overly trusting of his buisness parnters because of his pride as a businessman. He makes verabal deals always blames poor conditions rather than his poor judgement due to his pride.

Krauss however got lazy when he didn't check the credential of his business partners. In a businnes is pretty important to check with who you're making a deal and instead he doesn't check and ends up doing business with people so shady Natsuhi could realize it even without checking.

Yes, his pride pushes him to believe he can spot a honest person... but still he should check and he doesn't.

Sloth though is a very easy to fall sin. Basically everyone in Umineko is guilty of sloth in a way or another. You can see EVERYONE guilty of it in the right circumstances (except maybe Eva who works hard a lot and always keep herself busy?)

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Out of the ones I listed the only one that I'm not entirely satesfied with is Wrath over Pride for Natsuhi,

Remember that it was Natsuhi's wrath that caused her to push the baby off the cliff. Sure, her hurt pride was also to blame but it was the sudden impulse she coudln't control that caused her to commit murder.

[Witch of Uncertainty]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It's both, really. His Sloth is why he relies on too-good-to-be-true gambles instead of putting in the effort to make reliable but less profitable investments.

He is literally the epitome of Sloth as defined in biblical morality, which is more than just 'laziness', but also trying to take the easier road (Get rich quick schemes and the like) and refusing to self-improve because you think you're good enough. Krauss using sexism and status to justify his headship is a case of Sloth, not Pride, because he's using things he was born with as opposed to things he created or worked on himself.

If we were trying to assign Eva something besides Greed, she'd be Pride because of her obsession with recognition and her obsession with earning it however she can. Krauss passively rests on his laurels, content that the headship is guaranteed by his mere rank of birth.

Wouldn't Eva be wrath more than anything? She states several times that it's the source of her power?

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Rudolph

You just described Rudolph, which is why I have him as sloth.

Yea, but Lust is the source of pretty much all of Rudolph's character flaws, sins, and misery. It's Lust that created the Kyrie/Asumu situation. It's his Fatal Flaw.

You can be proud about something you are born with. Krauss is constantly overly trusting of his buisness parnters because of his pride as a businessman. He makes verabal deals always blames poor conditions rather than his poor judgement due to his pride.
There are definitely multiple people with multiple sins.
Rudolph - Sloth, Lust Rosa - Lust, Wrath Natsuhi - Wrath, Pride Eva - Greed, Pride Kyrie - Envy, Greed
But I really just don't see Sloth for Krauss. Out of the ones I listed the only one that I'm not entirely satesfied with is Wrath over Pride for Natsuhi, and while putting sloth on Krauss frees pride up (and gives Rudlph Lust and Rosa Wrath, as many people often peg them) I still think Pride fits Krauss far more, and Lust and Sloth are definitely my #1 pick for Rosa and Rudolph respectively.

Get a better understanding of Sloth, then. Krauss is defined by his overposturing and lack of work ethic. Pride and Sloth have a lot of overlap, as Belphegor herself demonstrates.

The fact that Natsuhi is a better peg for Pride, to the degree that it's her most defining sin and character trait, frees it from being associated with Krauss.

Wouldn't Eva be wrath more than anything? She states several times that it's the source of her power?

Her Wrath is rooted in her Greed, however. Her craving and obsession for recognition as the Head and everything that goes along with it. Her Greed in wanting to control George's life so that he's happy in the way she feels is best for him. Her Greed in honestly having the best family situation of the four siblings but still craving more.

It is true that the adults could all be keyed to multiple sins, however, since they are mere mortals and they've been pegged by different stakes, but if you want to pick a single primary defining sin, it's pretty much as I laid out.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Yea, but Lust is the source of pretty much all of Rudolph's character flaws, sins, and misery. It's Lust that created the Kyrie/Asumu situation. It's his Fatal Flaw.



Get a better understanding of Sloth, then. Krauss is defined by his overposturing and lack of work ethic. Pride and Sloth have a lot of overlap, as Belphegor herself demonstrates.

The fact that Natsuhi is a better peg for Pride, to the degree that it's her most defining sin and character trait, frees it from being associated with Krauss.



Her Wrath is rooted in her Greed, however. Her craving and obsession for recognition as the Head and everything that goes along with it. Her Greed in wanting to control George's life so that he's happy in the way she feels is best for him. Her Greed in honestly having the best family situation of the four siblings but still craving more.

It is true that the adults could all be keyed to multiple sins, however, since they are mere mortals and they've been pegged by different stakes, but if you want to pick a single primary defining sin, it's pretty much as I laid out.

The way Kyrie described Rudolph's playboy additude it never came off as Lust on his part. She described girls as flocking to him and him just taking advantage. Neither his relationship with Asumu or Kyrie was built on Lust either. Asumu provided emotional support, while Kyrie provided buisness support. Both relationships had solid ground to them.
Rosa on the other hand clearly exemplifies lust. She abandons her daughter to go on trips with boyfriends, men she doesn't even know well. She talks constantly about how Maria is a burden and how she prevents Rosa from being fulfilled as a woman. She cares more about sex than taking care of her own daughter. Even her anger at Maria is rooted in lust. She doesn't care about Maria's behavior for Maria's sake but for her own. If her daughter reflects poorly on her then she won't get laid. That's what she cares about.
Rudolph fits sloth to a T. Sloth is not just about being lazy. Rudolph always takes the easy way out. He's always trying to make a quick buck, scheming and taking the low road. His whole issue was that he cut some corners and got in trouble by infringing on the rights of another company.
Plus the VN draws the connection to sloth very heavily. Both in episode 3 and episode 8 when Rudolph interacts with Purgatory sisters it's sloth that he's involved with. Their characters play off each other well and their conversations highlight Rudolph's connection to Sloth.
Out of all the characters the ones that the VN most explicitly links to a sin are Rudolph and Kyrie. In fact I would say that these are the two you would start with as givens when trying to figure out the others.

EDIT: After thinking on it, I suppose you're right, Rudolf's schemes were dishonest, not lazy, he was good at scamming people and loved the thrill, he liked the excitement which is why Kyrie knew he would enjoy what they did in episode 7 and why he was calm and enjoying himself in his fight with Belegaphor to which she even praised. You can be dishonest and still require ahrd work, counterfeit material and companies still have manual labor and require work to maintain, Rudolf has to constantly clean his tracks, watch his back and actually think for his plans to work. Rudolf also does all the work along with Kyrie, he never lets other people handle the work. Yeah it's criminal and not honest, but it's not lazy, that was just what he was good at since he was in college so he made it into a career. Also, Rudoph's connection to Belegaphor was no different from what he would have been had any other Stake attacked him, he liked her because she was an ideal woman, one that he could depend on and relax around, much like he does Kyrie so he said he would come to chat her up (Which he did) and he even said she was below Kyrie's standards anyway. They didn't have nearly the same kind of connection as Kyrie and Leviathan had whom had a clear connection. Belegaphor lost because she was lazy and Rudolf worked harder to outwit her, Kyrie won her fight because she had more envy to power her. There was no connection between Rudolf and Sloth. He was staked by Lust a majority of the time though.
Krauss on the other hand had his problems stem straight from his laziness, in episode 3 Eva even stated that "Krauss you have been spending all your money on risky gambles to attempt to obtain a large amount of money" or something along those lines, he was constantly risking everything on get rich quick schemes and gambles rather than trying to actually work like his other siblings. And again he constantly relies on his status and sex to be more successful than Eva who even states she works harder than Krauss, hell, Natsuhi works harder than Krauss and constantly displays a strong sense of pride, it's why she gets so emotional and why the sin is associated with her and not Krauss. I'm not saying that Krauss doesn't have pride, but it's not his crippling sin. So yeah you were correct there.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, we've no official answers for this one so it's possible to make two theories.

One is that Kyrie only faked being relieved and said what she said to push Eva to kill her because, with Rudolf dead, she had no reasons to go on.

The other is that Kyrie is aware that her relationship with Rudolf is toxic but she can't let go of him as long as he's alive. Now that he's dead she thinks she can finally be free as well.

I like to think it's the first theory, mainly because she remained with him in the Golden Land even before knowing about Battler.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Rudolf in a way got a lot for Kinzo in terms of selfishness. He chose Asumu because Asumu was kinder to him, but refused to let go of Kyrie because Kyrie was useful to him. Back when this happened he wasn't completely amoral so he felt some regret in stealing Kyrie's child... but never as much as to settle things when they were alive.

That's true, Umineko was bittersweet like that haha, I wanted to give Rudolf credit for confessing but given the context it didn't mean as much as it would had they been alive.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I totally agree. It's a pity Umineko only has few sidestories and that not all of them got trasposed in the manga version. I would have loved to see many more sidestories about the charaters!

Yeah I doubt Ryukishi07 will expand upon this, it seems he has moved on but yeah it would have been cool to get little prequel mangas for the adults, especially Hideyoshi who desperately needed development.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

In the manga they add that Rudolf had been involved in fraudolent bussiness and was guilty of breaching contract agreements with an American company (that's why he needed money, because he lost the trial about it).

That's right, kinda weird at the beginning of episode 2 Kyrie was helping him out but in 1 she knew nothing about it. I guess I shouldn't expect Rudolf to ahve been to good at the trial, I don't think he speaks English very well despite his love for Western movies, I would guess standing trial in America would be rather difficult

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Because Kyrie never thought much of Asumu. They both knew about each other but Kyrie though Asumu wouldn't catch Rudolf's eyes that much he'll tie himself to her and that, at worst, he would just sleep with her (Rudolf was used to sleeping around back then as well). However Asumu instead managed to worm her way into Rudolf's heart so that not only he was willing to marry her when she got pregnant but he was also willing to chose her over Kyrie when Asumu lost her baby.
Kyrie tried confronting Asumu when she discovered she was pregnant as well as Asumu but, back then, Asumu was already married to Rudolf and just chased her off. Back then Kyrie wasn't ready to become a murderer yet and Asumu's stance apparently surprised her enough that Kyrie didn't know how to react to it.

The fact that she lost Rudolf to Asumu tormented Kyrie greatly. She blamed herself for being to confident and undervaluing Asumu... and all her feelings not only caused her envy and jealousy to grow out of proportions but also lead her to be insane enough to be willing to start a massacre to 'help Rudolf'.

Makes sense, I often forget Kyrie wasn't always willing to kill, only hurt, so killing a pregnant woman would have probably haunted even her. I was just curious because in episode 7 she didn't seem to care how much Rudolf pleaded not to kill Battler since if I recall she killed Battler on his way to the chapel so I'm sure had she had just a bit more resolve she wouldn't not have minded, although Rudolf's confession likely would have broken her at that point.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Said this I would have loved to see more of her and Asumu as well. It's really a pity Asumu (and her family who took care of Battler after her dead) got mostly glossed over.

I don't even think she got a model in the visual novel, for such a huge character to Rudolf, Battler and Kyrie it's unfortunate we don't see her at all or even get a small flashback detailing the two.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Eva gets staked with Lust in Ep 1, after she made love with Hideyoshi. However originally the sin of Lust was connected not just to sexual desires but was merelyan intense and uncontrolled desire that could include the uncontrolled desire for money, food, fame, or power.

Eva desires the headship and the power so Lust in the old sense of the sin can still fit to Eva.

That's interesting, I forget the sins are not always black and white. Some definitions definitely do overlap each other.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

The manga is not a holy piece but it's the solution, the final chapter of the mystery. In a mystery generally the game is to find out who's the culprit, how he did murder the people and why before the final chapter.
You can, of course, procrastinate and theorize to your heart content before reading the final chapter but when all is said and done your solution must match with the one in the final chapter for you to have won the game against the author.
Without the final chapter though... it's not possible to establish if you got it right.

Of course you can decide you don't give a damn about the solution the author wanted you to guess. You want to find your own solution, the one you'll like.

There's nothing wrong in this but, at this point, it's no more a game between you and the author but a solitaire. You were challenged to find the solution the author thought, you decided instead to find a solution you liked.

It's like playing cards. You can play card games with another player or you can just decide to play by yourself. Ryukishi was fine with both possibilities.

I think it can be extremely fun to find alternate solutions for Umineko... and that lovely discussions can be spun by this... but the problems come when one tries to force the alternate solutions, which are nothing else but a variant of fancanon on the others, claiming they have to be canon.

So you see, I don't think having an official answer kills the discussion. I think the discussion is killed when one tries to force the others to accept that an unofficial answer is the true one.

That's true, unfortunately some don't see that, but even so it's much more fun to try and figure it out yourself, I recently got my brother and friend into the series and it's fun seeing them contemplate the murders and even argue amongst themselves about the culprit, motives and character (Although a lot of arguments between them are regarding if Rosa is a good person or not lol).

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Hum... no idea, I didn't read it all in one go.
I'm re-reading it though and yes, re-reading it now that I know the solution is also an interesting experience.

I sure hope not, I would have to shake the hand of someone who binged the series in anything less than a week, holy cheese lol.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Krauss however got lazy when he didn't check the credential of his business partners. In a businnes is pretty important to check with who you're making a deal and instead he doesn't check and ends up doing business with people so shady Natsuhi could realize it even without checking.

Yes, his pride pushes him to believe he can spot a honest person... but still he should check and he doesn't.

Sloth though is a very easy to fall sin. Basically everyone in Umineko is guilty of sloth in a way or another. You can see EVERYONE guilty of it in the right circumstances (except maybe Eva who works hard a lot and always keep herself busy?)

I suppose but I always thought it was that pride which held him down, that anchored his problems, but yes their are definitely hints of laziness about him.

[Y Ddraig Goch]

In prime, the "duel" between Shannon and Kanon happened after Battler arrived on the island, right?

Actually, considering Sayo's circumstances, would Beatrice and Shannon have dueled after the latter proclaimed the victor of the previous one? I know Beato would win c:

[marianx]

theres something i noticed and i was wondering what you guys thought of it. if you read the story you see how the north wind and the sun is mentioned several times, its actually a big theme inside of it.and i was wondering if this actually applies to the whole story itself.. for example battler goes from completing denying and hating the witch, to being in love with her. theres also evidence that implies the trick ending actually is the real ending...all of this seemed interesting to me.

[Mali]

Originally Posted by marianx

theres something i noticed and i was wondering what you guys thought of it. if you read the story you see how the north wind and the sun is mentioned several times, its actually a big theme inside of it.and i was wondering if this actually applies to the whole story itself.. for example battler goes from completing denying and hating the witch, to being in love with her. theres also evidence that implies the trick ending actually is the real ending...all of this seemed interesting to me.

Yes of course. But it depends on the other/alternative interpretations of the North Wind and the Sun (find it on Wikipedia) . It was even averted at the end of EP3.
In EP 6 the characters are somehow aware of this "trick"and its original meaning is no longer relevant.
It may be somewhat like that for example: For no apparent reasons the culprit killed all people.
→Inacceptance
The culprit has a bad past, love seems to be the motive.
→Acceptance
It may be a move from the author to lend credence to the How-, Who- and Why-dunnits and it provides an easy walk through the answers (deserve your fun). Because the official manga answer (I read it yet) is out every information is sucked up like a sponge.
Example: It may be not from Sayo's past but Erika's theory about the caller (the man from 19 years ago) is notable and commonly accepted. It punishes you hard if you haven't paid attantion in EP5.

Be hard to convince.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Reality Breaker 2.0

In prime, the "duel" between Shannon and Kanon happened after Battler arrived on the island, right?

Actually, considering Sayo's circumstances, would Beatrice and Shannon have dueled after the latter proclaimed the victor of the previous one? I know Beato would win c:

No, it happened prior to it and it sort of mirrored the one in Ep 6.

Battler was out of the picture so Shannon 'decided' she would leave with George. Although a side of her considered living her life as Kanon, ultimately she didn't give Kanon a chance. Kanon, according to her, was a lump of all the ugliness inside her.

Also George was offering her serious commitment which was a thing Jessica couldn't offer her at the moment as, she's younger, still depends on her family and... well, Kanon has just turned her down.

Basically between George telling her 'I'll make you my fiance and then I'll marry you' and Jessica 'let's try getting closer as I'd like for you to be my (secret) boyfriend' she decided to pick up George's proposition.

In short, as in Ep 6, the duel ended with Shannon's victory... sort of because first of all she's very, very afraid George will reject her when he'll learn the truth and, to make matters worse, when she learns Battler will be back she panics and doesn't know what to do anymore so Beatrice takes control (in Ep 6 we'll see how, in the end, basically Beatrice uses Kanon [and basically also Shannon] to correct the logic error... she's the one who moves the pieces, the one in control).

In short, as you guessed, Beatrice would win. She was entrusted with Sayo's main wishes so, although Shannon represents Sayo's look and Sayo's true life, Beatrice has basically a huge part of Sayo's core, of what makes Sayo 'Sayo'.

Although Sayo likes George quite a bit the manga makes clear Battler is the one she loves the most, the one he can't give up and the one of whom she fears rejection the most.

She could accept George might end up discovering the truth when attempting to sleep with her but she prefers to die than let Battler discover the truth.

Her whole game gives chances to George but it's basically thought mainly for Battler.

She stands up and tries to save the cousins because Kyrie and Rudolf say they'll kill Battler and he's the one she searches the most (though she wanted to save the others as well).

Let's face it, if Battler were to be around, Beatrice would have ruled in the love duel... but as soon as he disappears she's powerless (she manages to 'kill' Natsuhi only because he's with her, she's disqualified when he's not with her because trapped in the logic error, she goes back on being in charge when she finds the way to bring him back).

Originally Posted by marianx

theres something i noticed and i was wondering what you guys thought of it. if you read the story you see how the north wind and the sun is mentioned several times, its actually a big theme inside of it.and i was wondering if this actually applies to the whole story itself.. for example battler goes from completing denying and hating the witch, to being in love with her. theres also evidence that implies the trick ending actually is the real ending...all of this seemed interesting to me.

Sorry but it's confirmed that the trick ending isn't the real ending... and this from prior that the manga was released, when Ryukishi spoke about the VN in an interview.